Are you worthy? A Campaign against LDS Women

[WillowTheWhisp]

We could just as easily ask are men oppressed because they are expected to be the breadwinners and don't have the responsibility of bearing children.

[Guest]

LeBron James makes money by playing basketball. Basketball is his work. I doubt LeBron would stop playing basketball if he is not paid money doing it. He probably won't play in the NBA anymore - but I guarantee you, he'll still play basketball. And I doubt that he wishes he doesn't have to play basketball anymore...

I equate that to LDS women. Yes, we do a lot of stuff to keep our commandments. Lots of work. Work that benefit ourselves and our families. We do it because we WANT to. Just like LeBron and his basketball. Are we oppressed? Is LeBron oppressed? Nah.

[MorningStar]

I asked my husband if it was OK to call them idiots. He says it's OK.

Idiots.

[julietta]

I feel like i would be really interested if I knew what you were talking about. Haha...so what are you talking about? :)

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

LeBron James makes money by playing basketball. Basketball is his work. I doubt LeBron would stop playing basketball if he is not paid money doing it. He probably won't play in the NBA anymore - but I guarantee you, he'll still play basketball. And I doubt that he wishes he doesn't have to play basketball anymore...

I equate that to LDS women. Yes, we do a lot of stuff to keep our commandments. Lots of work. Work that benefit ourselves and our families. We do it because we WANT to. Just like LeBron and his basketball. Are we oppressed? Is LeBron oppressed? Nah.

I have always equated it with this analogy:

You are hired to do a job. The Job requires that you start off at minimum wage. In order to increase your wage, you have to perform and take on new responsibility, you already received the Job without the employer knowing anything about your work ethics, he chose you, he did not have to give you a job, nor did he have to interview you, however he wanted to and desired to. Yet, once you have acquired this job, do you not work for the employer?

Of course not, you work, you comply with the policies and procedures, because if you do not, you are fired. Yet, as you work, you find that your employer takes notice, then he offers you an advancement opportunity, higher paying wage, a bit more responsibility, more challenges. You step up and take on these responsibilities, you continue to grow, learn, and increase to the next level, so on and so on. One day, you find yourself moving on to own your own business, doing the same thing you had done the past 30 some years, you retire, or you move into a different position with a different company that does similar work, but is more progressive.

Yet, they say this is flawed.

So then I ask them the following:

"Do you pray?"

Yes

"Why?"

Well, because Christ said we are to pray, to seek after God daily.

"Prayer is a work, it requires discipline. If you are saved, why do you need to perform a work like prayer?"

It is when you start mentioning things like Praying, Going to your fellow brother or sister in Christ and asking for forgiveness, asking God for Forgiveness for falling into transgression, studying and reading the Bible, showing charity and compassion, witnessing the Gospel of Christ - all of these are works. Yet, they attempt to justify this as being something different than what "Mormons understand".

No matter how it is explained to them, they are steadfast into thinking that because Mormonism teaches works, therefore Mormonism denies the power of the Cross - when in reality, they don't realize that much of their "Christian Walk" is entirely based upon simple works of righteousness - that Christ himself told his Disciples that they would do greater than Christ had done.

[ruthiechan]

Sometimes I think members of the church are very spiritually healthy but not necessarily emotionally healthy and I think Satan takes advantage of that.

Satan takes advantage of anything and everything, even our own religion.

I say that because sometimes I think that being emotionally and spiritually healthy go hand in hand. It's hard to feel the spirit when you're anxious or depressed or angry.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I think Truth in Love has a lot in common with Ex-mormons for Jesus, which has a lot in common with a another group called "The Chocoholics for Weight Loss".

[Guest]

I have always equated it with this analogy:

You are hired to do a job. The Job requires that you start off at minimum wage. In order to increase your wage, you have to perform and take on new responsibility, you already received the Job without the employer knowing anything about your work ethics, he chose you, he did not have to give you a job, nor did he have to interview you, however he wanted to and desired to. Yet, once you have acquired this job, do you not work for the employer?

Of course not, you work, you comply with the policies and procedures, because if you do not, you are fired. Yet, as you work, you find that your employer takes notice, then he offers you an advancement opportunity, higher paying wage, a bit more responsibility, more challenges. You step up and take on these responsibilities, you continue to grow, learn, and increase to the next level, so on and so on. One day, you find yourself moving on to own your own business, doing the same thing you had done the past 30 some years, you retire, or you move into a different position with a different company that does similar work, but is more progressive.

Yet, they say this is flawed.

So then I ask them the following:

"Do you pray?"

Yes

"Why?"

Well, because Christ said we are to pray, to seek after God daily.

"Prayer is a work, it requires discipline. If you are saved, why do you need to perform a work like prayer?"

It is when you start mentioning things like Praying, Going to your fellow brother or sister in Christ and asking for forgiveness, asking God for Forgiveness for falling into transgression, studying and reading the Bible, showing charity and compassion, witnessing the Gospel of Christ - all of these are works. Yet, they attempt to justify this as being something different than what "Mormons understand".

No matter how it is explained to them, they are steadfast into thinking that because Mormonism teaches works, therefore Mormonism denies the power of the Cross - when in reality, they don't realize that much of their "Christian Walk" is entirely based upon simple works of righteousness - that Christ himself told his Disciples that they would do greater than Christ had done.

Seeker, this is because non-LDS folks are missing an important piece of the puzzle of the Plan of Salvation. For them, there is only heaven or hell. Yes, if you are born again in Christ you attain heaven. It would be pretty bad to say, yes Jesus atoned for your sins but you're going to hell anyway - which, by the way, is fire and brimstone stuff.

It is when you add the degrees of glory to heaven that works make more sense.

[JudoMinja]

Seeker, this is because non-LDS folks are missing an important piece of the puzzle of the Plan of Salvation. For them, there is only heaven or hell. Yes, if you are born again in Christ you attain heaven. It would be pretty bad to say, yes Jesus atoned for your sins but you're going to hell anyway - which, by the way, is fire and brimstone stuff.

It is when you add the degrees of glory to heaven that works make more sense.

Yeah, when you look at it that way, and all the degrees of glory are just "heaven", then works really aren't all that necessary. Especially since the LDS definition of hell (outer darkness) is being cut off from the presence of God, and such a state is only alloted to the Sons of Perdition- those who followed Satan in the first place, murderers- and even they are given a chance to acheive some degree of glory after they've attoned for their own sin, and those who deny the Holy Ghost- must deny what you KNOW to qualify.

As there are very few people who fit into those categories, there are very few people who will go to hell. So, everyone else gets to go to heaven. No matter what you do (pretty much), you're going to heaven.

The key, as you said, is in the degrees of glory. While just about everyone will make it to "heaven", only those who build themselves into a more Christlike people through their works, fulfill their covenants, and endure to the end will make it to the highest degree of glory- the full presence of God and the greatest most wonderful degree of heaven which all WORKS driven LDS members are striving to attain.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I think people just misunderstand what is meant by 'works'. Some people see it as buying your way into Heaven, The Scriptures say faith without works is dead, but works without faith is less than that. It's nothing. You cannot buy salvation, the scriptures make that perfectly clear BUT the Saviour says "If you love me keep my comandments." He also says "I was hungry and you didn't feed me. I was naked and you didn't clothe me." and when asked when did we ever see you hungry or naked and refuse to help you and his reply was - every time you didn't help someone else. He expects us to care for others - works - or he will not acknowledge that he ever knew us. Seems pretty clear to me, and quite scary. I'm always asking for his help but I wonder if I ever do all the things he asks of me.

[Gatorman]

My take is that a person who truly has faith will do works. Not because the works will accomplish anything, but because they have faith in Christ and his mission to teach <work> and provide comfort <work> and to perform healings/miracles <work>. If works were important for Christ...Well, how can they not be important for us?

[Guest]

My take is that a person who truly has faith will do works. Not because the works will accomplish anything, but because they have faith in Christ and his mission to teach <work> and provide comfort <work> and to perform healings/miracles <work>. If works were important for Christ...Well, how can they not be important for us?

Sure. If you just say work. Any kind of work...

But, hey, my good next-door neighbor helps his other neighbor mow his yard. Is that enough? For him, it might be. For him, that's all his faith requires of him. Can you say he's going to hell because he didn't do anything else? Hmm... no. So, why bother doing anything more?

[ferretrunner]

I really had to give this some thought.

I am an LDS woman. But, I'm inactive. I have never felt "oppressed" by the Church nor anyone in it. However, I feel I don't belong because of the expectations placed on women by the Church, or perhaps more accurately, members of the Church.

I am single, no kids. And not interested in marriage. I am open to the possibility if I meet a man who treats me with respect and can be a partner. But, at this point, I'm not too hopeful that will ever happen. I have been told in the past that I can't make it to the Celestial Kingdom without being married. Then I'm told, if I'm not married in this life, I'll meet him in the next. Why does my destination predicated upon my marital status?

When I go to RS meetings, most of the lessons focus on being a good wife and mother. These roles are important, especially motherhood. But, there's more to being a woman than wife and mother. I really feel left out at the meetings. "Oh, this will be important for you when you're married." To be fair, the women I have met for the most part are nice and not trying to be judgemental.

Clothing: Sunday best. You MUST wear a skirt or dress to meetings. I agree to dress respectfully. However, I have a wardrobe full of professional and professional casual clothing. With the exception of my military dress uniform and a funeral dress, they're all slacks and/or pantsuits. How I appear as a woman is more important than who I am?

There are times I really feel that I am held to an identity in the Church that I cannot ever acheive. I have a lot of wonderful qualities as a human being. Unfortunately, "femininity" by societal and church standards does not seem to be one of them. I could go and pretend to be someone I am not. But that's just not me.

I have had experiences with home teachers and older members of RS telling me to change who I am to be more in line with a "daughter of the Heavenly Father" regarding my independence and not being married. At one point, one of my home teachers told me that if I acted "more like a lady" I could get a "good husband to take care of me." Maybe that had something to do with me speed drinking my soda pop, chewing with my mouth open, and belching loudly while having my muddy combat boots on the coffee table? (just kidding). One of the RS women told me to stop running so much- men don't like women who are so active.

I honestly feel I can't be who I am in the Church. I have to be a certain type of woman to be acceptable and fit in. I often wonder why the HF created me this way. lol. I guess someone has to go to the other Kingdoms. Or serve those who can make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

That being said, I don't think this is "oppression." Joining and remaining is a matter of free will. I have met some wonderful people in the Church. And I have seen people change and heard others talk about how helpful the Church has been to them and how much they grew. Members of the Church have helped me several times.

There are many of the teachings I agree with wholeheartedly. And I wish sometimes I could be who I am expected to be as a female. I've tried but it's faking it and I know it.

All in all, I think the Church does lead to spiritual growth, friendships, and support for many people. It does a lot of good in this world.

I'm not sure how this response will come over. I truly am not trying to bash the Church (or any member) in any way. I have been struggling with these issues (among others) for awhile. In a way, I wish I felt comfortable talking to someone about this. When I've tried in the past, the RS president wasn't really open. I think the topic made her uncomfortable.

I guess it's not easy being green. (Kermit the Frog)

[Faded]

Because the Church of Jesus Christ maintains high expectations for ALL of it's members, there are going to be a number of complaints by those who struggle to live up to those expectations.

It's an interesting and very manipulative tactic. OF COURSE there will be members who are dissatisfied with something or another. These seek to plant the idea that LDS women are oppressed. They seem to be recycling an old tactic oft used during the anti-polygamy crusade of the 1800's: Telling LDS women they are being oppressed.

The really nonsensical thing: A woman who is dissatisfied with her marriage for any reason is going to be counseled to work to save her marriage by ANY Church worthy of calling itself "Christian", yet these ads can put it into such a woman's head that, "The Bishop's counsel to stay together is oppressive. I should be able to leave my husband now, and nobody should tell me differently! My Church has no right to tell me to stay with him!"

Women who feel the priesthood should be given to women will cite this as oppressive, etc.

The trick is, if you go into a room full of people anywhere in the world and do a little digging, you can ALWAYS find a lot of complaints. People love to complain, it's human nature. Such ministries should be careful that they are not guilty of hypocrisy. How many big-name ministers of the Evangelical movement have been guilty of using their position of power to entice member to commit adultery with them? How many cases from other religions of perceived oppression of women could easily be cited? They're living in a glass house and throwing stones at ours. It's quite sad really.

[Faded]

It is probably worth noting that the Territory of Deseret and later the Territory of Utah had long since granted Women's Sufferage (granting women the right to vote in other words.) It was actually the Federal Government that enforced a repeal of Women's Sufferage in the territory from 1872 to 1896.

The territory repeatedly applied for statehood, but was denied. One of the big reasons cited by politicians in Washington DC for repeatedly denying Deseret/Utah statehood was because they were insistant upon granting W omen's Suffrage as a part of their State Constitution.

There were many other reasons of course, and revisionist US History will seldom own to the fact that Washington D.C. politicians were strongly opposed to Women's Suffrage and used it as one of it's foremost excuses for denying Utah statehood. The fact that the US Government had accepted Wyoming with Women's Suffrage probably forced the issue to be overlooked when Utah entered the union in 1896 with a re-institution of Women's Suffrage as part of their entry.

Strange that a religion reputed to be so oppressive towards women was so keen on the idea of giving them equal voting rights with men, don't you think?

[ferretrunner]

Faded,

That is interesting. I didn't know that Utah/Desert had women voting before they joined the States.

I don't see not allowing women to hold the priesthood as oppressive. That is what the teaching of the Church is- and it also doesn't use the priesthood to teach that "men are surperior" to women. The Church does honor the role of motherhood and other activities women perform. For a single, non- mother, I often feel left out in the Church because so much focus is on the roles of wife/mother. But, that is a personal struggle and not an example of "oppression." Honestly, if I felt oppressed by the Church, there would be no struggle. I wouldn't attend- nor would I want to attend.

I think individual members of the Church can behave in an oppressive fashion. There are men out there who abuse their wives. THere may be a Bishop who oversteps his authority... These are individual examples- but not reflective of the Church as a whole. I would hope an abusive Saint would fall under censure from priesthood authorities.

[georgia2]

I see it took you a long time to type or at least copya nd paste all of the anti crap in these quotes. Anyone who makes these statements, or should I say Makes them up, has had the truths the church teaches jumbled round, round, round, till the words are all messed up and put in the wrong place so the sentences don;t say the same things anymore.

I don't know a SINGLE LDS WOMAN who thinks they are treated inferior, or are dominated, or held down, or have to EARN their blessings. These types of accucations come from people who want to find fault from the beginning instead of learning what the church teaches beasue they WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT REALLY TEACHES> And IF what you say, ther are any women who ARE LDS feel this or think this, then they surely haven't taken the time to learn what HEavenly Father wants them to know an What HE thinks of them! They are his most wondrous and beautiful creation! Woman was the LAST of His creations! He could stop when He reached perfection!

Of course all blessings are predicated on obedience to THAT LAW, not to the commandments which you stated. WHat that means is, to get the blessing of having food, you have to grow it or work for it. In order to have the blessing of a college educationm you have to go to class and EARN it ! In order to have a baby you have to go through labor OR just as hard, ADOPT one. In order to have good health you have to take care of your body. In order to have pretty teeth you have to brush once in a while. In order to be able to read you have to study. In order to have friends yo have to treat people kindy.

I dont think you really want to open dialog about these quotes you have put on here. I think you want to cause contention and cause doubts for people who are earnestly seeking to know what the church teaches and how REAL members feel and think. Any women on here who are having issues with depression or infidelity are no different that women of any other faith. We live in the latter days and life is hard due to this. Satan is making life hard NOT THE CHURCH>

[JudoMinja]

I dont think you really want to open dialog about these quotes you have put on here. I think you want to cause contention and cause doubts for people who are earnestly seeking to know what the church teaches and how REAL members feel and think.

Have you read the discussion on here? I don't see any contention. It surely doesn't look to me like anyone is being filled with doubts. I think Seattle really wanted to see others thoughts on this.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Far from contention I see only positive responses from people who confirm that they feel anything but oppressed. It's been an uplifting thread for me.

[georgia2]

I don't say anyones responses are contensious. What I'm saying is that quotes from anti sites leaves any Gospel loving truth preserving member the need to defend and explain the CORRECT wording of the scripture, the CORRECT meaning of misrepresented doctrin, the true feelings of members not lies someone has told to keep others from finding these blessings.

If you'll look now, most of the replys has been an earnest explanation of how those quotes ARE NOT how they feel. They explain how they ARE NOT TRUE. Reading the quotes from anti sites raises the anxiety of members to the point they have to respond and tell what the truth is. It puts members on the defensive having to explain how they don't feel.

There are sites galore with untruths and lies about the Gospel. All of us know they are there. I suggest if anyone wants to defend these they can go there, not bring the lies to our forum.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

I don't say anyones responses are contensious. What I'm saying is that quotes from anti sites leaves any Gospel loving truth preserving member the need to defend and explain the CORRECT wording of the scripture, the CORRECT meaning of misrepresented doctrin, the true feelings of members not lies someone has told to keep others from finding these blessings.

If you'll look now, most of the replys has been an earnest explanation of how those quotes ARE NOT how they feel. They explain how they ARE NOT TRUE. Reading the quotes from anti sites raises the anxiety of members to the point they have to respond and tell what the truth is. It puts members on the defensive having to explain how they don't feel.

There are sites galore with untruths and lies about the Gospel. All of us know they are there. I suggest if anyone wants to defend these they can go there, not bring the lies to our forum.

What you are honestly doing here is two things:

1) You are detracting from the Original Post of this thread. The original post holds the intention of bringing to light a very aggressive and dangerous campaign to Latter-day Saint Women in the Southern Idaho area.

In fact, I am keeping tabs on this new "Anti-Mormon" movement and it is gaining a serious speed train in the Pocetallo, Idaho and surrounding area. Mark Cares is making no bones about his campaign. He is after LDS Women, specifically those who are feeling "unworthy". His deception is very dangerous, and I have challenged him on several points on his blogs and he has refused to engage those points.

If you are interested in how I have responded and to what extent that I am personally defending the LDS Faith against such deception, you can go to my blog and take a gander.

2) You are intentionally becoming what is known as a Board Nanny. A Board Nanny is a person who is not a moderator, but feels that certain posts, and discussions should not take place here.

This is an open forum, many people have responded quite positively and honestly. There is nothing wrong with a healthy dialogue. I believe that many people find these types of conversations interesting, and down-to-earth.

Why you have chosen to post your disdain for this discussion, only you know. I do appreciate your zeal, and do understand where you are coming from, and even agree with you in certain respects.

However, the purpose behind the quotes (and if you read what I actually wrote) you would understand that they were provided to give an idea of the types of statements that are being made.

So, instead of getting upset over the discussion on this thread, google truth in love ministries and Mark Cares, and go to the blogs for LDS Woman and start posting comments (albeit that once you post your comments to LDS Woman's blog, she will delete and prevent you from further responding to her posts because she does not want anyone challenging her from the LDS Perspective).

I suggest that you carefully go back and read the very first post, and then respond in a more appropriate way.

[Wisc]

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

Nice.... lol.

[Elgama]

I think its sometimes wise to know what is being said about you, that way you are prepared. Like knowing when you go to a party you are not going to have sex and disappear into a bedroom with nearest avaliablle sex object

[WillowTheWhisp]

I agree Elgama.