Is doctrine important?

[rameumptom]

Ironically, I actually believe we have gotten much better at cooperation that in times past. It's just that in a generation that has embraced post-modernism, even with these improvements, any statement of fundamental truths seems overly confident. And yet, what faithful LDS would not express total confidence in, say, the Articles of Faith?

Or traditional Trinitarian in the Nicene Creed?

A foundation of basic doctrine IS important. The problem occurs for ALL of us, when we take our interpretation of the written word and make our interpretation the binding doctrine.

LDS have faith in the Articles of Faith, which are a very basic set of beliefs. However, it is NOT a creed that is forced upon all people. Nor does it espouse who is/isn't a Christian, based upon who agrees with it.

That is a very major difference between the AoF and the Nicene Creed, for instance.

But LDS have been known to take an off remark from Joseph Smith or another General Authority, and use it as if it were doctrine. One big area is in politics, where Ezra Taft Benson is used to beat up on liberals/Democrats.

Or how many Christians believe the earth is only 6000 years old, because their interpretation of the Bible requires it. Dinosaurs died off in the Flood, or Satan/God placed the bones in the earth to deceive mankind.

While they are free to believe that, must they insist that everyone else interpret the Bible in the same way?

[Maureen]

LDS have faith in the Articles of Faith, which are a very basic set of beliefs. However, it is NOT a creed that is forced upon all people. Nor does it espouse who is/isn't a Christian, based upon who agrees with it.

Forced? Why do you think creeds are forced upon people? How do you define forced?

M.

[Traveler]

Traveler, if I read you right, doctrine should make our lives better. What a glorious contrast to the ancient tradition of destroying those we deemed a threat to true doctrine!

If we only discuss things with those we agree with – we will never learn the truth. If we do not learn the truth we do not follow Christ and we will not be free; in this life or the next. Sometimes our enemies are more honest than our friends, especially when it comes to standing up to flaws in our opinions. Character, like the best metals are fired in forges that purge us of impurities.

The Traveler

[Guest]

Forced? Why do you think creeds are forced upon people? How do you define forced?

M.

I think he meant in the early years of Christianity. You know, like the inquisition...

[Guest]

Doctrine is VERY important. It is as important as loving thy neighbor, in my opinion.

I mean, I know not many people who drive cars have ever read the car's manual, but all of them had to pass a certain test to make sure they understand car use doctrine. How much more important it must be if it is our spiritual lives on the line? So yeah, seeking doctrinal knowledge is very good - and yes, love thy neighbor is one of the first things you learn in that doctrine.

[rameumptom]

Excellent thoughts thus far. So in light of the general agreement that God wants us to be good to our neighbors and strangers and even love our enemy, and that God will judge us according to what we know and how we used the truth we have, what say ye to this: Sometimes we can be so 'right' that we are wrong!

Pres Boyd K. Packer has warned about using the virtue of freedom to beat up on other virtues. I think that applies to others, as well.

One can go so far overboard with the Word of Wisdom that they harshly rebuke people from eating too much meat, drinking Coke, etc.

Parents can seek to be so kind to their children that they do not control them. I knew a couple once who believed so much in giving their child agency and freedom that they allowed her as a 4 year old to pretty much make her own choices, including wandering off, etc. They would not foist upon her the need to learning English, so they didn't work on it, if the child didn't want it. Pretty messed up kid, simply because one true concept was used to such an extreme that other virtues were not used.

I think Jesus told the Pharisees that they spent so much time giving alms that they forgot the weightier matters. He told them that they should have given, but not forgotten the other.

[rameumptom]

Forced? Why do you think creeds are forced upon people? How do you define forced?

M.

If I do not believe fully in the Nicene Creed (the Trinity), there are penalties. I am not considered Christian by many, and perhaps not even a heretic, but worst than an atheist. As PC noted, some Pentecostals who accepted modalism were voted off the island for believing something similar to, but not exactly like, the Trinity.

If I don't believe AoF #6 or 12, I'm not going to be asked by the bishop not to partake of the sacrament, or to leave the Church. As long as I don't vocally seek sedition, that is. Example: AoF 10 tells us there will be a literal gathering of Israel, which most members believe mean the Lost Tribes will return from a hidden place in the north countries. Well, in some of his writings, Elder Bruce R. McConkie suggested that instead of them being gathered as most suppose, they are just scattered to the winds, and not actually living together with their prophets. Was anyone labeled a heretic for differing views on it? Nope. And one point of view was not forced down the throat of everyone.

[xenic101]

... AoF 10 tells us there will be a literal gathering of Israel, which most members believe mean the Lost Tribes will return from a hidden place in the north countries. Well, in some of his writings, Elder Bruce R. McConkie suggested that instead of them being gathered as most suppose, they are just scattered to the winds, and not actually living together with their prophets. Was anyone labeled a heretic for differing views on it? Nope. And one point of view was not forced down the throat of everyone.

In the early church (1800-1900) a literal physical gathering made the only sense. There was no way to maintain a cohesive core if the saints were scattered physically across the globe (re: the Ohio/Missouri period and the gathering of the saints in Navoo/Utah) As technology has advanced, and communication became instantaneous across the globe, the church expanded to encompass all lands. We're not physically together, yet every Sunday we do gather together in worship and in the Lord's purpose, even more so with general Conference. I think it no longer requires a physical gathering of all the saints being centrally located in order for there to be a literal gathering of Israel to achieve the Lord's purpose.

Further more, LDS are frequently, almost constantly advised and reminded to "seek out the truth of these things" when we are taught. It's expected that we'll gain knowledge not because it's what Elder so and so said, but because the Holy Ghost confirmed it.

[Maureen]

If I do not believe fully in the Nicene Creed (the Trinity), there are penalties. I am not considered Christian by many, and perhaps not even a heretic, but worst than an atheist. As PC noted, some Pentecostals who accepted modalism were voted off the island for believing something similar to, but not exactly like, the Trinity.

For me growing up I went to a Lutheran church and we would recite the Apostles Creed during the liturgy.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, who was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell. and on the third day He rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

If for some reason you wished to come to church but did not wish to recite the creed you did not have to. There does not exist "creed police" that interrogate members to make sure that they recite their church's creed. A creed is a statement of faith, plain and simple. Edited February 4, 2010 by Maureen

[prisonchaplain]

Or traditional Trinitarian in the Nicene Creed?

LDS have faith in the Articles of Faith, which are a very basic set of beliefs. However, it is NOT a creed that is forced upon all people. Nor does it espouse who is/isn't a Christian, based upon who agrees with it.

That is a very major difference between the AoF and the Nicene Creed, for instance.

In word no, but in fact? Who will go to the Celestial Kingdom? Faithful Christians who observe God's commands. How many who reject, or simply dismiss the Articles of Faith will go there? Granted, LDS may not absolutely say none, but in reality, can you imagine many non-AoF supporters getting into the CK?

And then, who gets into the Terrestial Kingdom? Less faithful Christian? Unrestored Christians. Along with faithful religious people of most any sincere religion. So...most trinitarians get lumped in with non-Christians. Thus, is it really accurate to say that the difference between a creed and an Article of Faith is so major? And, at least with my own church's Statement of Fundamental Truths, we would not say that those in other churches who disagree on a few points would automatically be deemed a non-Christian. So, maybe the difference is not so major at all?

[prisonchaplain]

If we only discuss things with those we agree with – we will never learn the truth. If we do not learn the truth we do not follow Christ and we will not be free; in this life or the next. Sometimes our enemies are more honest than our friends, especially when it comes to standing up to flaws in our opinions. Character, like the best metals are fired in forges that purge us of impurities.

The Traveler

Yeah, but it's a whole lot easier when our enemies are nice about it.

[Traveler]

Yeah, but it's a whole lot easier when our enemies are nice about it.

Perhaps there is more to discuss concerning friends and enemies. There is another question. That is the question of ease or difficulty. I have often stated that I believe all who wish to get to heaven (Celestial Kingdom) will end up there but we have not (on this thread) discussed what we think we will contribute.

In general there are few things that are worthwhile that are accomplished with little or no effort. Sometimes when we view ease or difficult we think that if things are difficult that it will diminish those that achieve the results. We begin to think that by doing the requirement (easy or difficult) that we earn our station. But there is a problem. Kindness is not just a matter of being kind. It is a matter of being kind when kindness is removed from the equation; in other words – to be kind when justice does not require it. I believe the difference between those that will dwell in the Celestial Kingdom from those that do not is the matter of desire. Those that desire a heaven of minimal effort – will find their heaven. Those that desire to be kind when kindness is not necessary will find their kind of heaven.

The path of G-dliness I believe to be a very difficult way and only those that love G-d more than any possible distraction will walk such a path. The reason I do not believe doctrine is the primary concern is because I believe that correct doctrine will result by traveling the right path. In scripture we are told that to learn of G-d we must learn line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept. Thus it is that I believe it is not where we have been but where we are going.

The reason that I prefer the AoF over Creeds is because Creeds confuse me in that I do not understand what I do to become like G-d the Father and his Son Jesus Christ (one with them). Because I had a great father I understand how to emulate my dad. To me it is the same for my Father in Heaven. I have hope in becoming one with someone I understand and can actually follow and emulate. Kind of like the Cheshire cat in Alice in wonderland. If you do not comprehend what it is you wish to be like then it really does not matter what path you take to get there.

The Traveler

[bmy-]

It doesn't really matter what you believe, as long as you are true to what you know. It's more important to give your neighbor a need cup of water than to disect the fine points of the Godhead vs. the Trinity. It's more important to pray for a testimony than to study the scriptures.

I frankly don't believe God really cares what you think you know.. he is absolutely only interested in what you do. I can think all the good thoughts in the world but they mean precisely nothing. Actions speak louder than words and far louder than useless thoughts.

I hate admitting it too. Cause I'm all about thoughts.

[rameumptom]

In word no, but in fact? Who will go to the Celestial Kingdom? Faithful Christians who observe God's commands. How many who reject, or simply dismiss the Articles of Faith will go there? Granted, LDS may not absolutely say none, but in reality, can you imagine many non-AoF supporters getting into the CK?

And then, who gets into the Terrestial Kingdom? Less faithful Christian? Unrestored Christians. Along with faithful religious people of most any sincere religion. So...most trinitarians get lumped in with non-Christians. Thus, is it really accurate to say that the difference between a creed and an Article of Faith is so major? And, at least with my own church's Statement of Fundamental Truths, we would not say that those in other churches who disagree on a few points would automatically be deemed a non-Christian. So, maybe the difference is not so major at all?

According to many Trinity-espousing Christians, all Mormons will go to hell because we do not believe in the Trinity. Yet, LDS believe that all Christians will go to heaven, whether they believe in AoF or not. I think that is a major difference. The Terrestrial and Telestial ARE kingdoms of heaven.

You believe in various rewards in a single heaven. We believe in various rewards in multiple heavens. The difference is that our system allows for a larger group of people to make it to heaven. There is room for all Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc, in the LDS view of the heavens. For Walter Martin and many others, we couldn't burn fast enough in hell. You don't hear Mormons saying that a vote for Huckabee is a vote for Satan. Yet, we heard that from at least one major traditional Christian leader regarding Mitt Romney.

PC, I understand that you personally have not necessarily relegated Mormons to everlasting fire and brimstone. And I greatly appreciate that. But there still are an enormous number of traditional Christians who would.

[rameumptom]

For me growing up I went to a Lutheran church and we would recite the Apostles Creed during the liturgy.If for some reason you wished to come to church but did not wish to recite the creed you did not have to. There does not exist "creed police" that interrogate members to make sure that they recite their church's creed. A creed is a statement of faith, plain and simple.

Maureen, I wish that were the case with all traditional Christians. Some are more open minded than others are. PC has noted how modalists have been tossed out of some churches, and the National Council of Churches will not allow them membership. Of course, they don't allow Mormons membership, either. And they insist we are not Christian, but are a Satanic cult.

When such exclusions occur, and groups are labeled like we have been, the creeds become more than a simple statement of faith. They are used to determine who is/isn't a heretic.

[Soninme]

If doctrine isn't important why does the Bible warn us of false teachers preaching a different Jesus (2Cor. 11:4) or another gospel? (Gal. 1:8-9)

We all agree that faith without works is dead but if we preach a "different Jesus" then the ones converted to a false christ, and us, are lost.

Can a false jesus save? No!

[ozzy]

It doesn't really matter what you believe, as long as you are true to what you know. It's more important to give your neighbor a need cup of water than to disect the fine points of the Godhead vs. the Trinity. It's more important to pray for a testimony than to study the scriptures.

IMHO, these attitudes exist in most societies today, and in most religions. We could debate whether each sentence is true or false, but my purpose is to stir up a more general discussion about knowing and understanding in relation to doing.

Interesting principle. I like it for the most part. The problems arise when a belief in incorrect doctrine leads to sin. Believing in the trinity isn't likely to do this, however believing that we should kill those who don't believe as we do is certainly harmful doctrine. So I would say that there are definitely very important pieces of doctrine that we can't afford to ignore the differences in.

[Blackmarch]

It doesn't really matter what you believe, as long as you are true to what you know. It's more important to give your neighbor a need cup of water than to disect the fine points of the Godhead vs. the Trinity. It's more important to pray for a testimony than to study the scriptures.

IMHO, these attitudes exist in most societies today, and in most religions. We could debate whether each sentence is true or false, but my purpose is to stir up a more general discussion about knowing and understanding in relation to doing.

Does it matter what you believe? ultimately yes it does as it will affect how you accept and go about doing things.

To be true to what you know is a very good start - it shows that that an individual is honest in their dealings.

Is it more important to give a cup of water to a neighbor than to study the Godhead? Perhaps so, but, this depends on a couple things ;

1) This stems from belief.

2) The spirit in which it was done.

[rameumptom]

I think a continual search for truth and true doctrine is essential. The two biggest dangers to faith, I believe, are ignorance and knowing too much of the wrong stuff.

People tend to stop learning in both of these situations. They are happy with what they know, and are not interested in a continuing search for God and His truth. They establish what they know as the completeness of God's truth - when there is no way that could ever be in mortality. Even the LDS Church understands (or should understand) the difference between the fullness of the Gospel and the fullness of the truth. The fullness of the Gospel is sufficient truth and doctrine to get us exalted. The fullness of truth, means we know all that God knows, which isn't going to happen in this life.

When people convince themselves that more knowledge of truth isn't necessary (ignorance) or that what they have is the complete truth (looking beyond the mark), then we get problems. Whether it is a suicide bomber, an anti-Mormon, or a belligerent Mormon know-it-all who thinks his way is better than that of the living prophet, THEN we have a problem with people not being able to distinguish true doctrine that lifts and exalts people, to a teaching that destroys mankind.