Trinity

[Guest Kamperfoelie]

Hi sorry to bother you all with such a basic question.

The trinity, here also called the Godhead, is apparently a hotly contested doctrinal difference between LDS and non-LDS. could someone explain to me in simple terms what the differences in understanding / doctrine are?

Thanks!

[Drac]

I think Matthew Chapter 3 and John 17 show our view of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost the clearest.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus was in the river baptized by John, he saw the spirt descending, and the Father spoke from Heaven.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jesus was praying to the Father for his apostles. That they may be one as Jesus and the Father are one. Did he mean for the apostles to smoosh together and become one being? No. He meant for them to be united as Jesus is with the Father and the Spirit.

What sense is there at all for Jesus to be praying and speaking to the Father if he was the Father?

In many scriptures when he claimed that he came from the Father and is going to the Father, how would that make sense if he were the Father?

This clarification is particularly why both the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph Smith in the grove. Similar to the baptism of Jesus and on the Mount of Transfiguration where the Father in a cloud spoke to the Apostles, the Father introduced his Son to Joseph saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear him."

Most of christianity believe in the Trinity; meaning that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different manifestations of the same one God.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Drac

[NeuroTypical]

could someone explain to me in simple terms what the differences in understanding / doctrine are?

Trinity means when you say a prayer, you can be talking to God and Jesus without changing the person you're talking to.

Godhead means if you ever get to shake hands with Heavenly Father, you have not shaken hands with Jesus. You'd have to walk over to Jesus and shake his hand separately.

LM

[Maureen]

What sense is there at all for Jesus to be praying and speaking to the Father if he was the Father?

You are confounding the persons of the Trinity, the doctrine of the Trinity specifically does not do that. The Son is the Son, he is not the Father.

Most of christianity believe in the Trinity; meaning that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different manifestations of the same one God.

The word manifestations is a poor word to use to describe the Trinity. A better definition would be:

Trinity: Webster’s dictionary gives the following definition of trinity: “The union of three divine persons (or hypostases), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one divinity, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three Persons (or hypostases as to individuality).” Synonyms sometimes used are triunity, trine, triality. The term “trinity” is formed from “tri,” three, and “nity,” unity. Triunity is a better term than “trinity” because it better expresses the idea of three in one. God is three in one. Hypostases is the plural of hypostasis which means “the substance, the underlying reality, or essence.” - The Trinity (Triunity) of God | Bible.org; NET Bible, Bible Study

In mainstream Christianity Godhead can be used as a synonym to Trinity but the LDS definition of Godhead would not fit, so I’m thinking the definition below would probably not help.

Godhead - a. the essential being of God; the Supreme Being.b. the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

[Drac]

You are confounding the persons of the Trinity, the doctrine of the Trinity specifically does not do that. The Son is the Son, he is not the Father.

Thanks for the clarification. :)

[prisonchaplain]

As I understand it, based on my four years of conversations here:

LDS believe that God the Father, his Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three personages, absolutely separate and distinct from one another. They are each Gods, but together are the Godhead described in scripture. They are united in purpose only. God the Father gets the primary worship, and prayers are only directed to him. Further, that humans are eternal, in that prior to our mortal existence, we enjoyed an existence with the Father that was spiritual in nature.

Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, but share a single essence--and so are essentially one God. Also, we believe that only God is eternal, that humans begin their existence at conception, and had no premortal existence with God.

[hordak]

Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, but share a single essence--and so are essentially one God.

So would that be like the US Government? Supreme Court, Congress, President are different(persons) but together make up one Government?

I always hear the water,ice, steam analogy which doesn't send the message that they are distinct

[Jason_J]

Hello!

I am a Trinitarian (Catholic) that will most likely become LDS at some point. I have read extensively on both the Trinity and the LDS Godhead, and I think that I can give you a clear understanding of both (though I am much more familiar with the Trinity at this point). In at least two posts on this thread, I see some misrepresentations of the Trinity. I would also advise you to not listen to any Trinity analogies (such as three leaf clover, water/ice/steam, etc.) as they all fail on some level.

The Trinity

The Trinity, in a few words, is the belief in three distinct Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are of the same substance, and therefore are considered to be one God.

Trinitarians do not believe:

1) that Jesus prayed to Himself. He prayed to the Father.

2) that the baptism of Jesus presents a problem for Trinitarianism. The Baptism of Jesus clearly shows three distinct Persons, which both Trinitarians and LDS agree on.

3) that the three Persons are somehow melded together or attached to each other. I'm not even sure where this one comes from. Trinitarians very clearly believe that the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

4) Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is Jesus (Son). The Father is the Father. Those that believe that Jesus is also the Father are called Unitarians, not Trinitarians.

Godhead

LDS believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct Persons ("Personages") that are one in purpose. LDS tend to stay away from philosophical words such as "being" and "substance".

Differences

1) The use of the words "being" and "person". Trinitarians are very specific in the use of the words "being" and "person" When Trinitarians use the word "being", they may also use "substance", "essence", or "divine nature" interchangeably. This is not really how the word "being" is used today. LDS tend to follow the more modern understanding of "being", and use it interchangeably with "person", while Trinitarians do not. This is perhaps where much of the misunderstanding of the Trinity comes from. Today, we may use "human person" or "human being" interchangeably to mean the same thing. Similarly, LDS will say that the Godhead consists of three beings or three personages interchangeably, to mean the same thing. Trinitarians would say that the Trinity consists of three persons, but would never say that it consists of three beings, because by "being" they are referring to "divine essence/nature". Trinitarians believe that there is only one divine nature, which the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of.

2) The origins of the Persons. LDS believe that Jesus Christ (Jehovah) is literally the first born of the Father, and therefore had some sort of beginning (ignoring the issue of "intelligences"). In contrast, Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have eternally existed. Calling Jesus the "Son" in Trinitarianism (besides referring to the fact that Jesus did not have an earthly father) is referring to an eternal relationship. Meaning, LDS believe that Jesus Christ is the Son because He literally is a Son of the Father (the first one). Trinitarians believe that this is simply Jesus' eternal role. He has always existed as the Son.

Please ask me any specific questions about the Trinity.

[Maureen]

Jason_J, you explained the Trinity wonderfully!! You did a pretty good job with the LDS side too. :)

I am a Trinitarian (Catholic) that will most likely become LDS at some point.

Do you think that if you do convert that you will remain Trinitarian? Edited February 4, 2010 by Maureen

[Jason_J]

Jason_J, you explained the Trinity wonderfully!! You did a pretty good job with the LDS side too. :)

Do you think that if you do convert that you will remain Trinitarian?

No problem.

No, if I convert, it will be because I believe in the LDS faith. However I find that the Trinity and the Godhead are more similar than either side admits, especially when we get past the polemics and assumptions. I also think the difficulty in discussions on the Trinity lies with it being surrounded by philosophical terms that most people aren't familiar with, especially the word "being".

[applepansy]

I suggest a great talk by John Bytheway. Its called "Jesus Knows I'm a Christian". In the talk he discusses the trinity and the LDS viewpoint. He quotes Elder Holland and Elder Oaks.

It explains the LDS viewpoint very well.

[Drac]

I'm glad for the clarification. Most friends and acquaintances that I've ever discussed the subject with always used the three leaf clover, ice/water/steam examples and never explained it very well.

The definition of them being distinct individuals but of one substance makes is good to know.

[Jason_J]

I'm glad for the clarification. Most friends and acquaintances that I've ever discussed the subject with always used the three leaf clover, ice/water/steam examples and never explained it very well.

The definition of them being distinct individuals but of one substance makes is good to know.

Yes, Trinitarians love to use analogies to explain the Trinity, it happens all the time on the Catholic forum I participate in. To me, it only confuses the matter even more.

[Flyonthewall]

No problem.

No, if I convert, it will be because I believe in the LDS faith. However I find that the Trinity and the Godhead are more similar than either side admits, especially when we get past the polemics and assumptions. I also think the difficulty in discussions on the Trinity lies with it being surrounded by philosophical terms that most people aren't familiar with, especially the word "being".

I have always thought that the Trinity and the Godhead are very similar, and it is mainly the vocabulary that holds the differences.

Godhead = 3 distinct persons each individually God = 3 Gods

Trinity = 3 distinct persons each individually God = 1 God...?

To me, that seems like a forced definition, but essentially the same thing.

[bytebear]

I also think the distinction is very minute. I think the only difference is "substance" which is really not well defined, or at least not clearly explained. LDS scripture (both Book of Mormon and D&C) state quite plainly that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One God. And to say they are united in purpose only, really does not define their oneness completely. They are united in a way we cannot comprehend at this time. They are of one mind, but do not share one brain. They are of one action, but do not share the same body. So, really the only difference is what "substance" really means.

[Maureen]

I have always thought that the Trinity and the Godhead are very similar, and it is mainly the vocabulary that holds the differences.

Godhead = 3 distinct persons each individually God = 3 Gods

Trinity = 3 distinct persons each individually God = 1 God...?

To me, that seems like a forced definition, but essentially the same thing.

I've asked some LDS on this forum, do you believe the Godhead is 3 Gods or 1 God and some have said both. That can be confusing, how is it possible to see both?

M.

[bytebear]

I've asked some LDS on this forum, do you believe the Godhead is 3 Gods or 1 God and some have said both. That can be confusing, how is it possible to see both?

M.

It depends on how you define God. God is a state of being. In that sense all three are Gods, because they have all power, all knowledge, etc...

But they are also united, and act as one unit, and as such they are God.

So, understand that we worship God (united) but each are individually in a state of Godhood.

So I guess it's Godhood (3 Gods) and Godhead (1 God).

[bytor2112]

The Trinity, in a few words, is the belief in three distinct Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are of the same substance, and therefore are considered to be one God.

Perhaps you could define "substance". When Christ went to sit on the right hand of the Father.....how did this occur? Did his "substance" sit next to God's substance? Very confusing.

[Jason_J]

Perhaps you could define "substance". When Christ went to sit on the right hand of the Father.....how did this occur? Did his "substance" sit next to God's substance? Very confusing.

Asking if Christ's substance sat next to God (the Father I assume)'s substance is the wrong question, because that leads one to conclude that there are two substances. It also confuses what "substance" is actually referring to. In a word, "substance" is referring to "nature". I prefer "divine nature" over "substance", and "divine nature" is readily used interchangeably with substance (as well as "essence" and "being") in Trinitarian discourse. "Substance" actually comes from the Latin "substantia", which itself comes from the Greek "ousia", which means being or essence.

So, while Trinitarians interpret the verse about the Son sitting at the right hand of the Father differently than LDS (since Trinitarians believe that the Father is incorporeal), there really is no issue even if it is taken literally (again ignoring the incorporeality of the Father), since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. It is the Person of the Father that is distinct from the Person of the Son (and therefore it is more correct to ask "Did his "Person" sit next to God's "Person"), while they are of the same divine essence. Again, Trinitarians believe that Jesus prayed to the Father and not Himself, that the "us" in Genesis 1 refers to the distinct Persons of the Trinity, and that Jesus' baptism clearly indicates that there are three distinct Persons in the Trinity, and they are not each other (i.e. the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, etc).

Perhaps this excerpt from the FARMS Review of "How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God" by Hopkins may be helpful:

" In fact, the term substance is subtle and can be used in a variety of senses. Further, the study of these senses belongs to metaphysics. Yet there is much more to metaphysics than Hopkins acknowledges, including much that belongs to common sense. Consider this dialogue for illustration:

Q: What is in this box?

A: A copper wire, a copper bracelet, and a copper coin.

Q: How many things are in the box?

A: Three.

Q: How many substances are in the box?

A: One; the things are all copper.

There is nothing puzzling about this use of substance; it would be at home in a high school science classroom. Yet in this case, there is clearly no contradiction when we state, parallel to Hopkins's statement of the doctrine of Trinity:

1. The wire, the bracelet, and the coin are three separate objects or things, and

2. The wire, the bracelet, and the coin are one substance.

Thus Hopkins is too quick in claiming a contradiction between elements (1) and (2) of the doctrine of the Trinity: being three things can be compatible with being one substance. Of course, God is not a mineral. Trinitarians have a different sense of substance in mind; my point is that there are several to choose from.13 "

How Polemicism Corrupted Latter-day Saint Apologetics - Benjamin I. Huff - FARMS Review - Volume 15 - Issue 1

[Maureen]

Jason_J, where have you been all this time. You explain the Trinity so well, I can't imagine why you would want to give it up if you do decide to convert. Along the lines of how to explain one substance (divinity) with 3 persons, I'm adding this nursery rhyme:

Elizabeth, Elspeth, Betsy and Bess, They all went together to seek a bird's nest. They found a bird's nest with five eggs in, They all took one, and left four in.

[mnn727]

The problem is that if you ask 10 non-LDS Christians for a defination of Trinity you will get at least 4 or 5 different definations (even within the same denomination)

[mnn727]

I've asked some LDS on this forum, do you believe the Godhead is 3 Gods or 1 God and some have said both. That can be confusing, how is it possible to see both?

M.

Easy

The Father is God

The Son is God

The Holy Ghost is God

Thus there are 3 beings that are called God

Yet they are united as one in purpose and divinty

Frankly, to me, its all semantics. As humans we are never going to be able to make God fit into our little labled boxes, so why do so many people try?

[prisonchaplain]

If it was all semantics, and if the leadership of your church were desirious of appealing to evangelicals and other Christians with the "non-semantic" parts of the restored gospel, then they would just gradually transition the language of the nature of God doctrine to comport with trinitarian teaching. So, it's more than semantics.

IMHO, the difference is easier to see when we consider both the nature of God and of humanity. For trinitarians, God is all-power, everywhere-present, and all-knowing. He is absolutely one. He exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--three persons, co-equal, co-eternal, and absolutely alone in their nature and position. In contrast, humans are mortal beings, created by God out of nothing. Faithful ones will be exalted, but their eternity is future, not past. They will never be what God is, for his eternity alone is both past and future. IMHO, it is God positions vs. ours that highlights the contrast, more than the debate about substance vs. purpose, personage vs. person, and one essential God vs. one God in purpose.

[WillowTheWhisp]

The more I read definitions and contradictory descriptions of The Trinity the more confusing it becomes. Where does this doctrine originate?

[Maureen]

...and contradictory descriptions of The Trinity...

Willow, what do you mean by contradictory descriptions?