Sexual sins next to murder II

[justaname]

I read through the other thread and thought Id start up another topic that I thought was relevant.

Do you feel that the circumstances surrounding sexual sin are taken into consideration by our Heavenly Father? Under what circumstances is forgiveness found easier?

There are so many ways that people get into trouble with this stuff, and so many ways that one can commit sexual sin. I find a hard time believing that each of these circumstances are 'next to murder'. Consider the following scenarios:

1. A young man/woman begins to masturbate and develops a bad habit. It is sexual sin, but how bad is it?

2. The engaged couple who slip up a couple of times before they talk to the bishop.

3. A man who wants as many notches on his belt as possible.

4. A woman who has no sense of self worth, except for when she is deceived by a man who gives her attention.

5. A husband or wife who cheats and keeps it from their spouse.

6. Anyone seeking a prostitute.

7. A young man/woman who has received little or no education on the gravity of the sin, or of the sin itself.

8. A divorced or widowed individual with an honorable past who makes a mistake because they long for the intimacy that comes with a relationship.

9. A horny man/woman who just wants to 'get some'.

10. A married man addicted to pornography and is no longer satisfied with viewing.

I guess thats enough. Im not attempting to excuse any of those scenarios, but some seem far worse than others. Are there factors that make these sins more excusable?

[James_Fryman]

1. A young man/woman begins to masturbate and develops a bad habit. It is sexual sin, but how bad is it?

I know from personal experence that this one is bad, its an addiction not a bad habit and your using things for stuff other than what they were intended for. There could be worse stuff but dont do it.

2. The engaged couple who slip up a couple of times before they talk to the bishop.

They arent married.

3. A man who wants as many notches on his belt as possible.

Thats just plain wrong and your taking advantage over others

4. A woman who has no sense of self worth, except for when she is deceived by a man who gives her attention.

Its still a sin.

5. A husband or wife who cheats and keeps it from their spouse.

This is worse than not being married and doing it because there breaking a solem vow with someone

6. Anyone seeking a prostitute.

why even ask?

7. A young man/woman who has received little or no education on the gravity of the sin, or of the sin itself.

Its a sin but If they dont know then they cant be punished as much, that not an excuse though

8. A divorced or widowed individual with an honorable past who makes a mistake because they long for the intimacy that comes with a relationship.

Its still a sin just try and remarry paul says to remarry if you cant contain yourself in the New Testiment

9. A horny man/woman who just wants to 'get some'.

Its a sin, That wont be an excuse on judgment day

10. A married man addicted to pornography and is no longer satisfied with viewing.

Porn is an addiction and is a sin in its self and its still not an excuse.

Pretty much everything you said up there is next to murder except for masturbation, That however will escalate to things much worse if you dont controll it, Simply the best thing to say is dont do it its still a sin.

Plus we are told to keep the commandments, not pick and choose or try but to keep them, you cant go around and say this isnt as bad as that because of some different circumstance, its still a sin no matter how you look at it.

Edited February 3, 2010 by James_Fryman

[justaname]

Like I said, Im not trying to justify anything. I totally agree that all of them are sins. But I dont think they are equal either.

[Guest mysticmorini]

you keep referring to these situations as not being excuses on judgement day, but correct me if i'm wrong, we won't be held accountable for those sins if we repent no?

[RipplecutBuddha]

Absolutely. Each of those scenarios are sufficient to force the Spirit to withdraw from us, and as such, is a sin. The seriousness of the sin is irrelevant. Sin is sin, and just one is sufficient to keep us from the presence of our heavenly father.

When I read these threads "How serious is this sin..." I still get the sense of someone seeking to discover how close to the edge they can get before they go off the cliff. If we truly understand the gospel, we will remember that the goal is not to get as close to the edge as possible, but to stay as far away from it as possible.

Having said that, it is also important to realize that each of these scenarios are such that repentance is absolutely possible, and essential. However, in order for repentance to have full effect, regarless of the sin, one must develop a true sorrow for the act (not sorrow for being caught at it, or sorrow for the fact that it's a sin in the first place.), and a complete and sincere desire to turn away from such behavior.

These kinds of sins are very difficult to overcome, but it can be done, and great blessings are in store for those who do conquer them.

[Just_A_Guy]

you keep referring to these situations as not being excuses on judgement day, but correct me if i'm wrong, we won't be held accountable for those sins if we repent no?

Genuine repentance is incompatible with arguing "but what I did really wasn't that bad".

[annamaureen]

Sin is sin, and I don't think you can hash out in detail which sin is "worse" than another. However, I do believe that Heavenly Father knows us intimately and takes all circumstances into account.

[justaname]

I agree with what you are all saying. I like the comment about each situation being irrelevant if the person has repented. How true that is!

I dont however agree with the concept of "sin being sin". We have different levels of exaltation, and even different levels within each kingdom. Is this not related to the level of sin we commit AND to which level we have repented? Of course there are some things that are worse than others. If I drop a bad word on the golf course, am I equally as damned if I were to murder someone because they looked at me funny? According to your logic, "sin is sin" and both are equal because they both keep us from our Heavenly Father. Right? If that were true, wouldnt we just have a heaven and a hell? (Lets not get into the definition of hell. You know what Im talking about).

In all of the scenarios I listed, lets assume that none of them repented in this life. What Im trying to discuss is the concept of them all breaking the same commandment. . .the LoC. But all of them did it under different circumstances. Do the circumstances matter?

[Honor]

It seems like so often people talk about sin like it drags down our Eternal GPA. Points off for certain sins - more for some, less for others. The whole point of commandments is to condition us to live a celestial law. I don't believe any of us can figure out a scale, because none of us have the perspective to judge different scenarios. THANK GOODNESS our Heavenly Father does. The Plan of Happiness is for our happiness - not for our punnishment. I fully believe we are going to end up in whatever kingdom we are the most comfortable in. To be comfortable in the Celestial Kingdom, we need to be working toward living a Celestial Law, not counting up how many sin points, repentance exemptions, or written excuses we have so we can slip by hoping we're graded on a curve.

[hordak]

. What Im trying to discuss is the concept of them all breaking the same commandment. . .the LoC. But all of them did it under different circumstances. Do the circumstances matter?

I would say yes, as evident by the fact Bishops take into account the circumstances.

Bishop Jones has someone come to him for issue 6 ( seeking a prostitute.) then issue 5 (who cheats and keeps it from their spouse.) then issue 1 (begins to masturbate and develops a bad habit). Chance are he will receive different revelation on what needs to be done in each situation. I don't see why it would be different

[Moksha]

Do you feel that the circumstances surrounding sexual sin are taken into consideration by our Heavenly Father? Under what circumstances is forgiveness found easier?

Forgiveness in the sense of God forgiving, doesn't seem conditional to me. It is not one of those "well, I'll forgive you but I am still angry and will punch you if I see you walking down the street" type of things.

Feeling remorse and repenting is the answer. No conditional rankings are applicable to God's Grace.

[Maya]

What do you think about families... the innicent ones in the family what are their selestical chanses? The spouse? Is the only way a devorce and to find an other hopefully more selestical type? When is there no possibility of selestical kingdom for the spouses together?

[ryanh]

I dont however agree with the concept of "sin being sin". We have different levels of exaltation, and even different levels within each kingdom. Is this not related to the level of sin we commit AND to which level we have repented? Of course there are some things that are worse than others. If I drop a bad word on the golf course, am I equally as damned if I were to murder someone because they looked at me funny? According to your logic, "sin is sin" and both are equal because they both keep us from our Heavenly Father. Right? If that were true, wouldnt we just have a heaven and a hell? (Lets not get into the definition of hell. You know what Im talking about).

Very bluntly:

Then you don’t really understand the nature of sin, and the role and effect of the Atonement. Not casting stones. I was there myself not too long ago. Because I was there is why I can easily see the misunderstanding.

God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. Nothing unclean can enter His presence. So yes, the tiniest of sins is sufficient to keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom altogether. One single choice to act contrary to God's will is enough to cause permanent spiritual death.

It is wholly the grace of the Savior that will allow us to enter into the Father’s presence, despite what we have done. Whether our only sins were those of omission, or whether they be scarlet. They will all be white as pure snow, IF the Savior’s Atonement is accepted and employed.

The degrees of the Celestial Kingdom, or the three various kingdoms are, IMO, no so much about how badly we sinned as it is about how valiant we were in keeping our second estate. Perhaps that is in part a glass half-empty/half-full argument. Or at least it appears to be on the surface. But one perspective takes into account the true situation with the Atonement, the other is trying to rely on ourselves and prevention of doing too bad, which is a false and dangerous doctrine to allow to be seated in ourselves. It is anti-Christ – not in a malicious way, but effect of the ignorance is the same.

That is my feelings, and why I think these types of debate are completely missing the mark.

[justaname]

I dont think it misses the mark at all. You are right that the Lord doesnt allow the least degree of sin, and you are right that only the Savior can absolve us of sin. No one is arguing that the Lord excuses some sins that just arent as bad.

Im saying that to me there is an obvious hierarchy of sin. The Lord doesnt allow any of them, but an unrepentant jaywalker and an unrepentant serial. . . are they really the same? If sin is sin, there would only be two kingdoms. One for all the repentant souls, and one for everyone else. Why are there some sins that we need to see the bishop about and some that we can deal with on our own? Isnt it because some sins ARE worse than others?

Talking specifically about sexual sin, I think ALL of them should be handled with a bishops counsel. But given the different scenarios I listed, not all of them would be dealt with the same. Thats because they are all different. I think some would require more of a process to go through than others.

[MobyMule]

I would say yes, as evident by the fact Bishops take into account the circumstances.

Bishop Jones has someone come to him for issue 6 ( seeking a prostitute.) then issue 5 (who cheats and keeps it from their spouse.) then issue 1 (begins to masturbate and develops a bad habit). Chance are he will receive different revelation on what needs to be done in each situation. I don't see why it would be different

You are exactly right. Every situation is different. So yes circumstances are taken into account as far as how to guide the repentance process.

[Guest]

I dont think it misses the mark at all. You are right that the Lord doesnt allow the least degree of sin, and you are right that only the Savior can absolve us of sin. No one is arguing that the Lord excuses some sins that just arent as bad.

Im saying that to me there is an obvious hierarchy of sin. The Lord doesnt allow any of them, but an unrepentant jaywalker and an unrepentant serial. . . are they really the same? If sin is sin, there would only be two kingdoms. One for all the repentant souls, and one for everyone else. Why are there some sins that we need to see the bishop about and some that we can deal with on our own? Isnt it because some sins ARE worse than others?

Talking specifically about sexual sin, I think ALL of them should be handled with a bishops counsel. But given the different scenarios I listed, not all of them would be dealt with the same. Thats because they are all different. I think some would require more of a process to go through than others.

But then an unrepentant serial killer who lives in the jungles of Indonesia and was trained since birth to kill to gain a Supreme Being's favor versus an unrepentant jaywalker who knows the law against jaywalking and has testimony of the truth of the Articles of Faith to follow the laws of the land...

Which one is worse?

I don't think it's a matter of what's worse than what. It's all sin - regardless of degree. I am in the camp of what gets us to whatever Kingdom of Glory is not how bad a sin we commit but how many covenants we understood and made and whether we kept them or broke them.

Edited February 4, 2010 by anatess

[ferretrunner]

Oh, man! You mean jaywalking is a sin!? Dude, no Celestial Kingdom for me. But... wait... I don't jaywalk I jayrun That's altogether different. Shew!

Ok, seriously now. I was thinking about the scenario of the woman who has no self esteem unless a man sleeps with her. Often, women who were sexually abused as children do not develop a healthy set of boundaries, or a healthy sense of themselves. Often, they don't see their sexuality as something sacred. They view sexuality as nothing important. Their saying no in the past meant nothing; it was taken from them. Some develop a sense of sex as a commodity. "When I was 10 and 'Uncle Jimmy' had sex with me, he gave me an MP3. Well, it's ok as long as I get something." Their boundaries are unhealthy. Sometimes, they have little or no boundaries- other times, they have very rigid boundaries. Some women I worked with report hating their bodies, hating sex, hating being touched. Sex is "evil, dirty, and wrong."

My point is, wouldn't Heavenly Father take into account when someone was hurt that badly. If she doesn't view sex as sacred, if she has little to no understanding of her worth as a human being, if she views herself as a "sex object.."

[Guest jebus_crise]

Wait! choking the chickin is a sin????

why god? why??

[Guest Jewsus]

These seem like good ideas, but I think I'll stick to my pronz

[Guest jebus_crise]

I notice that having my 9 year old daughter suck on my grace stick is not listed here as a sin... is this acceptable behavior? If so that I'm fine, I haven't need to masturbate since she turned three.

[Guest Jewsus]

I notice that having my 9 year old daughter suck on my grace stick is not listed here as a sin... is this acceptable behavior? If so that I'm fine, I haven't need to masturbate since she turned three.

I feel this is quite normal. My children and grandchildren have all been raised in this manner - although I still feel the need to masturbate.

[Guest jebus_crise]

I feel this is quite normal. My children and grandchildren have all been raised in this manner - although I still feel the need to masturbate.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. For a while there I felt a strong sense of guilt, probably generated by the stigma that comes with living a life-style that you constantly have to explain to her is "our little secret." But I think with the progress this country has enjoyed we may some day step into a brighter future where we don't have to hide our differences from the world and live in constant fear of the FBI.

[Blackmarch]

I read through the other thread and thought Id start up another topic that I thought was relevant.

Do you feel that the circumstances surrounding sexual sin are taken into consideration by our Heavenly Father? Under what circumstances is forgiveness found easier?

There are so many ways that people get into trouble with this stuff, and so many ways that one can commit sexual sin. I find a hard time believing that each of these circumstances are 'next to murder'. Consider the following scenarios:

1. A young man/woman begins to masturbate and develops a bad habit. It is sexual sin, but how bad is it?

2. The engaged couple who slip up a couple of times before they talk to the bishop.

3. A man who wants as many notches on his belt as possible.

4. A woman who has no sense of self worth, except for when she is deceived by a man who gives her attention.

5. A husband or wife who cheats and keeps it from their spouse.

6. Anyone seeking a prostitute.

7. A young man/woman who has received little or no education on the gravity of the sin, or of the sin itself.

8. A divorced or widowed individual with an honorable past who makes a mistake because they long for the intimacy that comes with a relationship.

9. A horny man/woman who just wants to 'get some'.

10. A married man addicted to pornography and is no longer satisfied with viewing.

I guess thats enough. Im not attempting to excuse any of those scenarios, but some seem far worse than others. Are there factors that make these sins more excusable?

when you cross the line, you have crossed it.

A man who looketh upon a women to lust after has already commited adultery in his heart.

God judgeth a man by his heart.

THe only difference that I can notice is commiting with another party, which in all likelyhood would be worse..... But thats like choosing to get thrown in to the boiling oil rather than the crematorium.