God's Omnipotence

[Dravin]

Just FYI, some past threads that touched on omnipotence:

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/27648-evil-really-gods-fault.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/27023-limits-gods-power.html

The later more directly than the former. Not trying to create zombie threads nor shut down discussion on this thread, but if one is really interested in the subject you might find something thought provoking in them. Or maybe not. The thread made me recall some past discussion so I hunted them down in the search engine.

[JudoMinja]

Except the trait of all-knowing would be omniscience and not omnipotence. I don't think people fully grasp what omnipotence is.. the common definition is to being able to do anything one chooses to do. Yes, that's right.. being able to do anything.

Thanks bmy. I was thinking of the wrong word there- omniscience not ompipotence . Me and my silly mistakes. My analogy still stands to some extent. The relationship is still very similar to that of a parent and child. When we are little, it seems as though our parents can DO anything, etc. See my earlier post .

Anyway, God is indeed omnipotent. And part of that is because he would never choose to do anything contrary to the "laws" of creation. This is much the same as those who are given all the keys of the Priesthood. It has been said many times in scriptures that the prophets had the power to do anything they asked- the power of God. God extended that power to them, because he knew they would make the right choices in how to exercise it.

[JohnOF123]

Why must God be omnipotent? It complicates things IMO. If God is still experiencing new things.. that is new knowledge. An omnipotent being cannot learn and still be omnipotent. For example: Does God know what it is like to have more glory than he does now?

Can God create a rock so heavy He could not lift it? The quick answer is Nope. But the explanation is more important to understand than the answer...

The question is based on a popular misunderstanding about the definitions of words like "almighty" or "omnipotent." These words do not mean that God can do anything. Rather, they describe the amount of God's power. Power is the ability to effect change - to make something happen. God (being unlimited) has unlimited power, and the Bible affirms this (Job 11:7-11, 37:23) (2 Corinthians 6:18) (Revelation 4:8) etc..

Therefore, God can only do whatever is possible to be done.

God cannot, however, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore, unless context indicates otherwise (e.g. Matthew 19:26 where man's ability is being shown in contrast to God's), impossibility means the same thing whether or not God is involved.

Example.. God CANNOT make a circle square.

So, the first part of the question is based on a false idea - that God being almighty means that He can do anything. In fact, the Bible itself lists things God cannot do - like lie or deny Himself (Hebrews 6:18) (2 Timothy 2:13) (Titus 1:2). The reason He cannot do these things is because of His nature and the nature of reality itself. God cannot do what is not actually possible to be done, like creating a two-sided triangle, or a married bachelor. Just because words can be strung together this way does not make the impossible possible - these things are contradictions, they are truly impossible in reality. Now, what about this rock? A rock would have to be infinitely large to defeat an infinite amount of lifting power. But an infinite rock is a contradiction since material objects cannot be infinite. Only God is infinite. There cannot be two infinites. So the question is actually asking if God can make a contradiction - which He cannot.

[bmy-]

So, the first part of the question is based on a false idea - that God being almighty means that He can do anything. In fact, the Bible itself lists things God cannot do - like lie or deny Himself (Hebrews 6:18) (2 Timothy 2:13) (Titus 1:2). The reason He cannot do these things is because of His nature and the nature of reality itself. God cannot do what is not actually possible to be done, like creating a two-sided triangle, or a married bachelor. Just because words can be strung together this way does not make the impossible possible - these things are contradictions, they are truly impossible in reality. Now, what about this rock? A rock would have to be infinitely large to defeat an infinite amount of lifting power. But an infinite rock is a contradiction since material objects cannot be infinite. Only God is infinite. There cannot be two infinites. So the question is actually asking if God can make a contradiction - which He cannot.

I think a much simpler way of saying what you were saying was summed up by CS Lewis. He said that..

"His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense... It is [not] possible for God to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God." - CS Lewis

Which is great and pretty much spot on for the definition of omnipotence that we are dealing with. I guess.. the better question here is.. could God create everything we see ex nihilo? If he could not.. that is hardly omnipotence. If he could.. then how does one go about creating oneself? (He is after all.. made of matter)

Edited February 12, 2010 by pam
Edited out paragraph for false doctrine

[marts1]

Are you asking how God came to be?

[Blackmarch]

I think a much simpler way of saying what you were saying was summed up by CS Lewis. He said that..

Which is great and pretty much spot on for the definition of omnipotence that we are dealing with. I guess.. the better question here is.. could God create everything we see ex nihilo? If he could not.. that is hardly omnipotence. If he could.. then how does one go about creating oneself? (He is after all.. made of matter)

quantum mechanics, multiverse, interdimensional membrane crossover theory blah blah blah stuff. the term nothing isn't very specific.

TO be frank if anyone could create something from nothing.. it would be God. However I hold that he did not have to.

Edited February 12, 2010 by pam
Edited out sentence with false doctrine

[JohnOF123]

Which is great and pretty much spot on for the definition of omnipotence that we are dealing with. I guess.. the better question here is.. could God create everything we see ex nihilo? If he could not.. that is hardly omnipotence. If he could.. then how does one go about creating oneself? (He is after all.. made of matter)

CS Lewis is a great theologian, good quote you pointed out, but it's just what I've illustrated.

God created matter. He created all things. Before there was nothing that was made, Jesus was God, and was with God [Father]. This is taught in John 1:1.

God cannot lie.

I have to show you something about hermeneutics, staying in context.

Now we know Gods Word cannot contradict itself, so if we read passages as you mentioned above that illustrate that God can lie, BUT then we read the following passages that clearly proclaim that God CANNOT lie, then we have to come to a different conclusion since claiming that God can lie would only be a contradiction.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie

1 Samuel 15:29

The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent.

2 Samuel 7:28

Thou art that God, and thy words be true.

Titus 1:2

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

Therefore, whether by sending a man to trick you (doesn't make God a lier),

or a man to kill you (doesn't make Him a murderer),

God has the right to judge you in these ways but it does not make God a lier; He cannot lie, it is against His nature, and therefore impossible..

Hebrews 6:18

"It was impossible for God to lie."

{That's fine Pam, it did look a little "jumbled up for some reason" ty}

Edited February 12, 2010 by JohnOF123
Took out sentences which are false doctrine

[pam]

John I had to edit part of post you quoted. It had false doctrine in it. I know you are responding and your response is correct about God not lying. Thank you for correcting that but I did need to edit it.