Jesus' Godhood

[JessicaHarper]

So whenever Jesus progressed to Godhood, he became a being that always was God and always will be God.

Is this true for Heavenly Father as well? I would suppose so.

When you say "God" do you mean Jesus is one of three Gods (Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit)?

[JessicaHarper]

The information you will recieve from the Bible alone will be mostly, if not totally concerning this world or this creation only. Such words as eternity, eternal etc. are used with different meanings in several instances. What your asking is something beyond what you can find in the bible and don't need to know, but ya its fun to dream about or speculate.

I don't know if I would call this fun.

I knew that some LDS believed that God was once man, and that He progressed to Godhood, then the thought of how Jesus became God, in LDS teaching, came to my mind.

Sometimes I think TOO much. Thanks for your patience!

[JessicaHarper]

Jesus is the great "I AM". Not the "I WAS" or "I WILL BECOME" He just is. There is nothing else.

I like this.

[JessicaHarper]

I worship God the Father and His Son, Jesus the Christ, in Spirit and truth.

Nephi taught that we should "believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands" (2 Ne. 25:16), and in the same chapter he taught:

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Ne. 25:29)

Our scriptures teach that "in the beginning" Christ was with God and he was God. The title page of the Book of Mormon, declares that "Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God" (Title Page), and there is rarely a reference to Christ in any of our scriptures that does not affirm his divinity. Abinadi, taught that "God himself" would come down and "redeem his people" (Mosiah 15:1).

Jesus is not the God of just one world. Under the direction of the Father, He is the Creator and Redeemer of worlds without number, of which ours is just one (Moses 1:33) - and that "by him [Christ], and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:24).

Though opinions have been made by members of this and other churches in the past, I see no equivocation in the scriptures of Christ's divinity. They are right there before us. He is the Great I AM, the Alpha and the Omega, the Eternal God.

Glory to God on high!

Let heav’n and earth reply.

Praise ye his name.

His love and grace adore,

Who all our sorrows bore.

Sing aloud evermore:

Worthy the Lamb!

Jesus, our Lord and God,

Bore sin’s tremendous load.

Praise ye his name.

Tell what his arm has done,

What spoils from death he won.

Sing his great name alone:

Worthy the Lamb!

Let all the hosts above

Join in one song of love,

Praising his name.

To him ascribed be

Honor and majesty

Thru all eternity:

Worthy the Lamb!

Glory to God on High - Text: James Allen, 1734–1804, alt.

Regards,

Vanhin

Wow, thank you, Vanhin. That really answered many questions for me. Thank you for the time you put into this answer! I appreciate it.

[marts1]

I knew that some LDS believed that God was once man, and that He progressed to Godhood

I am one of those that believe this.

[JessicaHarper]

According to Christ we are gods. If you mean as when did he have power and authority? From the beginning. When was the beginning? we don't know.

Was Christ fully God? I don't know, however during his time in mortality he did say that he did not know exactly when the second coming would occur but only the Father did. I think it would probably be a safe bet to say that he did after in his time in mortality if he wasn't before.

Did God progress from a man to a God? We don't know.

However between the two options I"d vote yes because it is more logical and there is some support for it where Christ says he does all that he's seen his Father do.

In all this pondering I think it is also vital to ask what is man?

I don't think that Christ not knowing the date of the second coming rules out his being fully God. The Father and Son are two separate beings, who along with the Holy Spirit, make up the One True God (at least in my belief).

What is man? I believe that man is God's creation, made in the image of God, to glorify God.

[JessicaHarper]

I am one of those that believe this.

Marts1, understand I am coming from a Southern Baptist Christian perspective. For me, the thought of God having been a man who progressed to Godhood, diminishes His holiness and glory to me.

I struggle with the concept of embracing that teaching, or school of thought.

[JessicaHarper]

Great question.

Abraham 3:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

D&C 93:21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

These two scriptures are pretty straight forward. In the pre-mortal existence, Jehovah was like unto God (enough to differentiate himself from the rest of us), and he was the Firstborn. The title Firstborn could mean many things... But my final conclusion is that before any of the rest of our brethren were organized as spirit children, Jehovah was there with the Father and He (Jehovah the pre-mortal Christ) had already obtained a station of god.

How did He get there???

Best answer -- We don't know.

But this answer is not very satisfying. Objectively, I only recognize 2 realistic options.

1) Jehovah was created differently then the rest of us which imbued his spirit with special qualities.

or

2) Jehovah had experiences, prior to our organization as spirit children of Elohim, that allowed him to progress much further than where we currently reside within the plan of salvation.

You are referring to the Lorenzo Snow Couplet - "As man is God once was, as God is man may be."

It is generally thought that the couplet is stating that God the Father (Elohim) was once a man. Most people don't try to make room for Jehovah in the couplet...

This is a profound question. I think that most LDS members would say either they don't know or don't care or that it does not matter. Of those that would stick their neck out and try to make a statement most would probably answer no.

My personal answer? Yes.

Were spirit children organized or birthed as we know it? Or do we know the LDS position on that?

[marts1]

Most would no matter where they come from. I'm surprised I didn't when I first heard it from the missionaries 30 years ago. I had problems with a bunch of other stuff instead.:)

[mikbone]

Were spirit children organized or birthed as we know it? Or do we know the LDS position on that?

No official position.

The following is a great discussion on the topic though.

New Cool Thang Is there such a thing as spirit birth or not?

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Islander. I hope you are having a great day! :)

Whenever that was in the eternities! Infinity plus or minus one = infinity!

He was the First, the ONLY Begotten of the Father and was with HIM from the beginning. He was is and forever will be God. You are NOT reading the scriptures. ALL things were made by Him.

One second after or a million years it makes no real different when infinity is involved.

Although I agree that Jesus Christ is God, I'm not sure what you are saying makes sense.

Here is the question: Was Jesus Christ God when He was born as a spirit child?

Your response, if I understand it correctly, is that it makes no difference when Jesus was born as a spirit child when dealing with infinity, He is still God.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this type of reasoning and I'm not even sure if you answered the question at all. Can you please help by further expanding on what you mean or perhaps correcting my understanding of what you are trying to say?

Regards,

Finrock

[Traveler]

Marts1, understand I am coming from a Southern Baptist Christian perspective. For me, the thought of God having been a man who progressed to Godhood, diminishes His holiness and glory to me.

I struggle with the concept of embracing that teaching, or school of thought.

I find your thoughts interesting - though I think I very much disagree. Perhaps there is something that I am missing. Does it diminish Jesus' holiness and glory in your eyes because he was once a baby being cuddled and cared for by his mother Mary and stepfather Joseph? Regardless of your answer could you elaborate? I would like to ask you some more question in this regard - this is a point of view that surprises me and has caught me off guard.

Is your father diminished in your eyes because he was once the child of your grandparents? Or does that give you hope that your father understands (not just intellectually) what it is to be a child?

The Traveler

[Maya]

I like your thinking Jessica.

You know there has bene found very old scriptures where it tells about Elohim... YHW and there was a God and 17 other Gods who had a meeting... Kerry is telling about it in his newest video... 7 videoes is the whole serie ... but this is in the very beginning...

He has other videoes too, which I think you might find highly interesting.

[Faded]

Were spirit children organized or birthed as we know it? Or do we know the LDS position on that?

The revelations say that we are literally begotten sons and daughters of God. They don't explain how that works, but I don't expect that we can justifiably take birthing as we know it in this lost and fallen world, and then apply it to the eternal worlds.

Remember that the unpleasantness of pregnancy and child-birth was part of the cursing upon humankind when Adam and Eve fell. So it wouldn't seem appropriate to assume that what we know here is the same or that it has direct application to how we are begotten sons and daughters of God. If anything, it would seem to imply that the "birthing process" would be very different (but no less intimate and real of course.)

Do we have details about how it all works? Nope! And I'm just fine with that.

[marts1]

I would be more inclined to agree with that if animals didn't make it appear like they were thinking of their next meal while giving birth.:) I think the curse was only added pain myself.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Faded. I'm not sure we've met before, but if not then it is a pleasure to meet you! :)

The revelations say that we are literally begotten sons and daughters of God. They don't explain how that works, but I don't expect that we can justifiably take birthing as we know it in this lost and fallen world, and then apply it to the eternal worlds.

Remember that the unpleasantness of pregnancy and child-birth was part of the cursing upon humankind when Adam and Eve fell. So it wouldn't seem appropriate to assume that what we know here is the same or that it has direct application to how we are begotten sons and daughters of God. If anything, it would seem to imply that the "birthing process" would be very different (but no less intimate and real of course.)

Do we have details about how it all works? Nope! And I'm just fine with that.

I am only guessing, of course, but I would suppose that "giving birth" to spirit children would be a very pleasant process as opposed to how it is now in our imperfect mortal state (a very painful, stressful, exhausting process).

My thoughts on this are inconsequential, but I felt like sharing them nonetheless.

Regards,

Finrock

[marts1]

Immortal beings do not experience physical pain.

[Vanhin]

Along the same lines as the question Finrock asked, were we individuals before we became the spirit offspring of God? Were we individuals before we were born into mortality? Were we individuals before we were born again as children of Christ when we were baptized? Are we children of God right now, before we become his heirs when we are exalted?

Was Christ God before he was exalted? Was Christ God before he entered mortality? Was Christ an individual before he was begotten as a spirit child of God the Father? Was he a God before? I say yes to all those questions, and what I believe about Christ's divinity, I believe about the Father's divinity as well.

No, Christ did not receive a "fullness of the Father" at first, meaning He did not always have an exalted body, but as an intelligence, He was always like God. Jehovah, the pre-mortal Jesus Christ, taught Abraham that among intelligences there are varying degrees.

...if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. (Abr. 3:18-19)

Those are the words of Jehovah (See Abr. 2:8). No wonder He was chosen to be the Firstborn, when the Father found himself among spirits and glory, himself equally intelligent, when the great plan of happiness was put into motion. Taught the Prophet:

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon)

God is God because he is more intelligent, and thus has the power exalt us with Himself. That's my belief, based on my understanding of the scriptures, for what it is worth.

Regards,

Vanhin

[marts1]

Totally agree with all that. I would like to say we all have within us now, as children of God to become as He is. It's already been givin, we just have to develop it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

No official position.

The following is a great discussion on the topic though.

New Cool Thang Is there such a thing as spirit birth or not?

In my opinion, this is not a 'great' discussion. I think it is much easier to argue against something we know very little about it than try to argue in favor of a possible unknown method. All one can gather from that discussion is that it is confusing and we are unsure about it.

I, personally, think that statements like God is eternal and 'I am' are referring more to the eternal nature of things that are spiritual and not necessarily specific individuals. They way things are done in the spirit world remain the same and will always be done that way because there is no other way, just like having a Christ is the only way and that is what makes him the great 'I am."

Just like I can say I only have one Bishop ... it may not be the same individual, but I have only one and the organization stays the same. And after my Bishop moves on, I still call him Bishop. (I realize that's not the best example, but trying to make a point that the great 'I am' might be referring more to the title than the individual.) Just a thought.

[mikbone]

In my opinion, this is not a 'great' discussion. All one can gather from that discussion is that it is confusing and we are unsure about it.

Thats kinda the point. The other is that in much of that discussion there were actual quotes from general authorities which do have more weight then your or my comments.

Such as:

Points for Spirit Birth

Joseph Fielding Smith – “If we are his offspring, then how did we become such, if we had no mother to give us spirit birth?” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 3: 143.)

Harold B. Lee – “That great hymn “O My Father” puts it correctly when Eliza R. Snow wrote, “In the heav’ns are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason; truth eternal tells me I’ve a mother there.” Born of a Heavenly Mother, sired by a Heavenly Father, we knew Him, we were in His house” (Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, edited by Clyde J. Williams [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996], 22.)

Joseph F. Smith – In a statement of the First Presidency: “man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father,”

And Points against Spirit Birth (all btw are from Joseph Smith)

Willard Richards pocket companion 8 August 1839: “The Priesthood is an everlasting principle & Existed with God from Eternity & will to Eternity, without beginning of days or end of years. the Keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent…. The Spirit of Man is not a created being; it existed from Eternity & will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be Eternal. & earth, water &c-all these had their existence in an elementary State from Eternity.”

28 March 1841: “he says the spirit or the intelligence of men are self Existent principles before the foundation this Earth-& quotes the Lords question to Job where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the Earth” Evidence that Job was in Existing somewhere at that time 1 he says God is Good & all his acts is for the benefit of inferior intelligences-God saw that those intelligences had Not power to Defend themselves against those that had a tabernacle therefore the Lord Calls them together in Counsel & agrees to form them tabernacles so that he might Gender the Spirit & the tabernacle together so as to create sympathy for their fellowman.”

7 April 1844 Richards Diary: “The head one called the Gods together in grand council – to bring forth the world… In Greek, Hebrew. German. Latin. – In the beginning the head of the gods called a council of Gods-and concocted a scheme to create the world … Elements – nothing can destroy. no beginning no end. – The soul. God created in the beginning – he never the character of man. don’t believe it. – who told you God was self existent? correct enough. – in hebrew put into him his spirt – which was created before. Mind of man coequal with God himself … If man had a beginning he must have an end-might proclaim God never had powr to create the spirit of man. Inteligence exist upon a self existent principle no creation about it.”

[JessicaHarper]

Does it diminish Jesus' holiness and glory in your eyes because he was once a baby being cuddled and cared for by his mother Mary and stepfather Joseph?

No, not at all.

Is your father diminished in your eyes because he was once the child of your grandparents? Or does that give you hope that your father understands (not just intellectually) what it is to be a child?

Again, not at all. My father is human, he was a child.

I have no desire to worship an exalted man, who somehow progressed to a status of god. I have seen some LDS maintain the belief that they, one day, have the potential to be gods themselves with spirit children, etc. That makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to be worshiped, I don't want to be a god...I want to worship the ONE true God.

I personally believe, and believe that the Bible teaches, that God has always been God, and always will be God. He has no beginning and no end. Do I completely understand that? No, from my mere human perspective, I don't believe it is possible to understand.

[JessicaHarper]

The revelations say that we are literally begotten sons and daughters of God. They don't explain how that works, but I don't expect that we can justifiably take birthing as we know it in this lost and fallen world, and then apply it to the eternal worlds.

Remember that the unpleasantness of pregnancy and child-birth was part of the cursing upon humankind when Adam and Eve fell. So it wouldn't seem appropriate to assume that what we know here is the same or that it has direct application to how we are begotten sons and daughters of God. If anything, it would seem to imply that the "birthing process" would be very different (but no less intimate and real of course.)

Do we have details about how it all works? Nope! And I'm just fine with that.

Understood. In Genesis, after the fall, it says that God greatly multiplied the pain in child birth.

I just wondered if there was an official position of the church, and thought I would ask.

Having birthed a daughter myself, I can attest to the PAIN of the birthing process...praise God for epidurals.

[JessicaHarper]

Those are the words of Jehovah (See Abr. 2:8). No wonder He was chosen to be the Firstborn, when the Father found himself among spirits and glory, himself equally intelligent, when the great plan of happiness was put into motion. Taught the Prophet:

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon)

You say, "...when the Father found himself..." Are you saying that the Father was surprised by the intelligences around Him?

The King Follett Discourse...oh, yes, that was a SHOCK to my system.

[mikbone]

I have no desire to worship an exalted man, who somehow progressed to a status of god. I have seen some LDS maintain the belief that they, one day, have the potential to be gods themselves with spirit children, etc. That makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to be worshiped, I don't want to be a god...I want to worship the ONE true God.

According to the LDS beliefs, if you keep the commandments you will absolutely receive the desires of your heart. We call that kingdom the terrestrial kingdom and it is a wonderful place.