White Horse Prophecy - is this real?

[InquisitiveSoul]

I've heard and read about the White Horse Prophecy - the Constitution will be hanging by a thread and church will save it - but is it a real prophecy?

I've been trying to find more information. What do you know about it? My question, is the White Horse Prophecy part of Mormon Doctrine or is it one of those things that people become carried away with?

[Faded]

I found this: Constitution to Hang by a Thread Believe All Things

It seems the teaching began with this:

Joseph Smith July 19, 1840

We shall build the Zion of the Lord in peace untill the servants of that Lord shall begin to lay the foundation of a great and high watch Tower and then shall they begin to say within themselves what need hath my Lord of this tower seeing this is a time of peace &c—Then the Enemy shall brake come as a thief in the night and scatter the servants abroad when the seed of these 12 Olive trees are scattered abroad they will wake up the Nations of the whole Earth Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff upon which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear away the constitution away from the very verge of destruction—Then shall the Lord say go tell all my servants who are the strength of mine house my young men and middle aged &c come to the Land of my vineyard and fight the battle of the Lord—Then the Kings & Queens shall come then the rulers of the Earth shall come then shall all saints come yea the Foreign saints shall come to fight for the Land of my vineyard for in this thing shall be their safety and they will have no power to choose but will come as a man fleeth from a sudden destruction—But before this the time shall be when these who are now my friends shall become my enemies and shall seek to take my life and shall be m there are those now before me who will more furiously pursue me and the more dilligently seek to my life and be more blood thirsty upon my track than ever were the Missouri Mobbers You say among yourselves as did them of old time it is I & is it I But I know these things by the visions of the Almighty.

I don't know how it came to be known as the "White Horse" prophecy off the top of my head.

As Joseph Smith himself told us many many times, a prophet is not a prophet unless he is speaking in the name of the Lord. So this originating speech, while it does seem to have it's basis in revelation, could have been largely flavored with Joseph Smith's personal opinions.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Faded

[HiJolly]

It is the latter. Scholars have found no solid evidence for its authenticity.

HiJolly

[Wingnut]

My question, is the White Horse Prophecy part of Mormon Doctrine

No.

or is it one of those things that people become carried away with?

Way too carried away.

[InquisitiveSoul]

I've read some speeches by Ezra Taft Benson where he discusses this in detail, suggesting it is true. Of course we all know where he stood politically, but if one of the Prophets discussed this in his Conference Talk, does it then make it doctrine?

I'm reading comments all over these forums on various topics and several people have mentioned topics becoming doctrine when they are covered in General Conference. Does that mean in a couple of weeks that any topic the Prophet speaks on is considered doctrine? For example if he says to stay away from milk (of course he won't say that) but does milk become added to the Word of Wisdom?

Edited March 19, 2010 by InquisitiveSoul

[MarginOfError]

In General Conference in October 1918 Joseph Fielding Smith made the following comments:

I have discovered that people have copies of a purported vision by the Prophet Joseph Smith given in Nauvoo, and some people are circulating this supposed vision, or revelation, or conversation which the prophet is reported to have held with a number of individuals in the city of Nauvoo. I want to say to you, my brethren and sisters, that if you understand the Church articles and covenants, if you will read the scriptures and become familiar with those things which are recorded in the revelations from the Lord, it will not be necessary for you to ask any questions in regard to the authenticity or otherwise of any purported revelation, vision, or manifestation that proceeds out of darkness, concocted in some corner, surreptitiously presented, and not coming through the proper channels of the Church. Let me add that when a revelation comes for the guidance of this people, you may be sure that it will not be presented in some mysterious manner contrary to the order of the Church. It will go forth in such form that the people will understand that it comes from those who are in authority, for it will be sent either to the presidents of stakes and the bishops of the wards over the signatures of the presiding authorities, Or it will be published in some of the regular papers or magazines under the control and direction of the Church or it will be presented before such a gathering as this, at a general conference. It will not spring up in some distant part of the Church and be in the hands of some obscure individual without authority, and thus be circulated among the Latter-day Saints. Now, you may remember this.

The White Horse Prophecy, in any of its variant forms, has never been submitted, or even considered, for such a process that would be required to make it canon or binding on the Church membership. It simply has not occurred!

Joseph Fielding Smith's father and President of the Church, Joseph F. Smith, followed immediately after his speech and said:

The ridiculous story about the "red horse," and "the black horse," and "the white horse," and a lot of trash that has been circulated about and printed and sent around as a great revelation given by the Prophet Joseph Smith, is a matter that was gotten up, I understand, some ten years after the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by two of our brethren who put together some broken sentences from the Prophet that they may have heard from time to time, and formulated this so-called revelation out of it, and it was never spoken by the prophet in the manner in which they have put it forth. It is simply false; that is all there is to it.

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/whitehorse.pdf

See Also

Newsroom Blog: Church Statement on "White Horse Prophecy" and Political Neutrality

So, while Elder Benson may have liked the sound of it, there were other prophets and apostles who thought it downright ludicrous.

However, if you want an alternative interpretation, some believe that the White Horse prophecy has already been fulfilled...................by Harry Reid

[Wingnut]

I've read some speeches by Ezra Taft Benson where he discusses this in detail, suggesting it is true. Of course we all know where he stood politically, but if one of the Prophets discussed this in his Conference Talk, does it then make it doctrine?

I'm reading comments all over these forums on various topics and several people have mentioned topics becoming doctrine when they are covered in General Conference. Does that mean in a couple of weeks that any topic the Prophet speaks on is considered doctrine? For example if he says to stay away from milk (of course he won't say that) but does milk become added to the Word of Wisdom?

No. This page will be helpful to you in making distinctions: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/What_is_Mormon_Doctrine.pdf. I would especially read the 3rd section. Also this: Approaching Mormon Doctrine - LDS Newsroom.

[hordak]

I've read some speeches by Ezra Taft Benson where he discusses this in detail, suggesting it is true. Of course we all know where he stood politically, but if one of the Prophets discussed this in his Conference Talk, does it then make it doctrine?

I'm reading comments all over these forums on various topics and several people have mentioned topics becoming doctrine when they are covered in General Conference. Does that mean in a couple of weeks that any topic the Prophet speaks on is considered doctrine? For example if he says to stay away from milk (of course he won't say that) but does milk become added to the Word of Wisdom?

Absolutely. A quick Gem from 2009.

Unfortunately, the sack lunch contained an egg salad sandwich. For those of you who don’t understand the significance of this, may I just say that egg salad must be refrigerated

Egg salad must be refrigerated. Anyone putting it in a cooler is in direct violation of the Prophets instructions and therefor an Apostate.

No.

where is Vahnan with that link?

[InquisitiveSoul]

Well hordak, you have to be careful with egg salad, it can turn on you in a hurry.

[marts1]

It's true new doctrine would not come like this but have you ever heard anything during a general conference that is not true?

[HiJolly]

It's true new doctrine would not come like this but have you ever heard anything during a general conference that is not true?

Don't answer, Hordak --- It's a trap!

HiJolly

ps. Anyone ever read the Journal of Discourses? heh. Try it, marts1. And be flexible.

[marts1]

lol I'm not that intelligent

[Maureen]

In General Conference in October 1918 Joseph Fielding Smith made the following comments:

Let me add that when a revelation comes for the guidance of this people, you may be sure that it will not be presented in some mysterious manner contrary to the order of the Church....it will be presented before such a gathering as this, at a general conference. It will not spring up in some distant part of the Church and be in the hands of some obscure individual without authority, and thus be circulated among the Latter-day Saints...

From Ezra Taft Benson, “Our Divine Constitution,” Ensign, Nov 1987, 4, President Benson seems very confident in his use of what he calls Joseph Smith's prophesy:

My beloved brethren and sisters, what a glorious blessing to be assembled in another great general conference of the Church...

...Unfortunately, we as a nation have apostatized in various degrees from different Constitutional principles as proclaimed by the inspired founders. We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: “Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction” (19 July 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; ms. in Church Historian’s Office, Salt Lake City)....

...I have faith that the Constitution will be saved as prophesied by Joseph Smith. It will be saved by the righteous citizens of this nation who love and cherish freedom. It will be saved by enlightened members of this Church—among others—men and women who understand and abide the principles of the Constitution....

M.

[MarginOfError]

From Ezra Taft Benson, “Our Divine Constitution,” Ensign, Nov 1987, 4, President Benson seems very confident in his use of what he calls Joseph Smith's prophesy:

My beloved brethren and sisters, what a glorious blessing to be assembled in another great general conference of the Church...

...Unfortunately, we as a nation have apostatized in various degrees from different Constitutional principles as proclaimed by the inspired founders. We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: “Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction” (19 July 1840, as recorded by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray; ms. in Church Historian’s Office, Salt Lake City)....

...I have faith that the Constitution will be saved as prophesied by Joseph Smith. It will be saved by the righteous citizens of this nation who love and cherish freedom. It will be saved by enlightened members of this Church—among others—men and women who understand and abide the principles of the Constitution....

M.

It's funny that you quote the 1918 comment from Joseph Fielding Smith (something I'd already posted, by the way), when in that same talk he alluded to the White Horse Prophecy and denounced it. What's more interesting is that the next talk was Joseph F. Smith, who pointed specifically to the prophecy and denounced it in stronger terms.

So perhaps you would like to explain how Elder Benson could have so much confidence in a prophecy that was denounced by two others in General Conference.

[Maureen]

It's funny that you quote the 1918 comment from Joseph Fielding Smith (something I'd already posted, by the way), when in that same talk he alluded to the White Horse Prophecy and denounced it. What's more interesting is that the next talk was Joseph F. Smith, who pointed specifically to the prophecy and denounced it in stronger terms.

So perhaps you would like to explain how Elder Benson could have so much confidence in a prophecy that was denounced by two others in General Conference.

I wouldn't say it's funny because I copied that portion of the quote from your post. And I would say that President Benson was very confident in referring to the words of JS as a prophecy because he was the living Prophet at the time, while the two that denounced it were now dead.

M.

[Traveler]

I've heard and read about the White Horse Prophecy - the Constitution will be hanging by a thread and church will save it - but is it a real prophecy?

I've been trying to find more information. What do you know about it? My question, is the White Horse Prophecy part of Mormon Doctrine or is it one of those things that people become carried away with?

Here is a revelation to consider:

D&C 38: 28 And again, I say unto you that the enemy in the secret chambers seeketh your lives.

29 Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land.

30 I tell you these things because of your prayers; wherefore, treasure up wisdom in your bosoms, lest the wickedness of men reveal these things unto you by their wickedness, in a manner which shall speak in your ears with a voice louder than that which shall shake the earth; but if ye are prepared ye shall not fear.

The great problem in the USA will be those that hide their actual intent – that appear to be concerned but in reality are like wolves in a flock of sheep – which is the warning Jesus made to his disciples 2000 years ago.

The Traveler

[MarginOfError]

I wouldn't say it's funny because I copied that portion of the quote from your post. And I would say that President Benson was very confident in referring to the words of JS as a prophecy because he was the living Prophet at the time, while the two that denounced it were now dead.

M.

See Also

Newsroom Blog: Church Statement on "White Horse Prophecy" and Political Neutrality

That's also from my first post in this thread, which states

"The so-called 'White Horse Prophecy' is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine."

And is currently what is posted on the Church's website regarding the prophecy.

So now I'm getting really confused. Two former prophets called it false, and it was false then. But it was true when President Benson was prophet. But now that President Benson isn't the president of the Church it's false again? This stupid White Horse bucks so much I'm getting whiplash.

[marts1]

I've been a member for over 30 years and I've never heard of this till now.

[rameumptom]

There are several portions to the White Horse Prophecy. It is in the book, Prophecy Key to the Future, by Duane S. Crowther.

There are several problems with the White Horse Prophecy, including that it was third hand account. However, certain concepts within the WHP were stated by Joseph Smith and others after him, including Ezra Taft Benson. Most believe that the Constitution will hang by a thread, and if it is to be saved at all, it will be saved by the Elders of the Church. That part of the WHP is believed by many in the Church today. Other portions of it are not, and Joseph F. Smith wrote why in some of his writings.

Personally, I do believe the Constitution, which we are told is an inspired document in the D&C, will hang by a thread. In fact, I think it already is suspended by just a couple threads at this moment. If the Congress passes the health care bill with just a "deem and pass" and no vote, we will definitely see the end of our Constitutional Republic (unless the Supreme Court steps quickly in and knocks it down). That we are turning from a Republic to a socialist society also concerns me. Thomas Jefferson, who started the Democratic party must be rolling over in his grave right now with what both major parties have done.

If nothing else, the huge debt we are creating will bankrupt our nation. Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security are in the tank for tens of Trillions of dollars of unfunded promises (most economists think it is somewhere between 50-100 T).

When the Soviet Union went bankrupt 20 years ago, their nation broke up into large nation-states, and struggled economically for years. In the BoM, we see in Third Nephi that major government upheavals broke the nation up into large "tribes" or states, just prior to the destructions and First Coming of Christ in glory. I believe we will see that same thing happen here. When the USA collapses under the weight of its debt and sin, it will break into smaller states. The Church will establish strong holds in many areas, because we are one of the few organizations not in debt and we're organized on all levels to deal with disasters. Imagine if we all turn in our food storage to our bishops to manage, while we gather together (as did the Nephites in danger from Gadiantons) for protection and to rebuild society.

It will be in this difficult era that the members will finally be serious enough to build Zion. And it will be a refuge for the righteous of all religions. D&C 45 tells us that those dwelling among the wicked who will not lift up their swords to fight, "must needs flee to Zion for safety."

So, listen to the Prophets. Get out of debt. Get your storage. Prepare yourself spiritually and physically in every way to build and establish Zion and her stakes.

[Wingnut]

I wouldn't say it's funny because I copied that portion of the quote from your post. And I would say that President Benson was very confident in referring to the words of JS as a prophecy because he was the living Prophet at the time, while the two that denounced it were now dead.

M.

I'm wondering why you seem to have so much invested in this argument. It's interesting to me that you are also using a common LDS defense of living vs. dead prophet, when you aren't even a member yourself.

Edited March 20, 2010 by Wingnut

[InquisitiveSoul]

Great post rameumptom! I agree with your points on Thomas Jefferson and the potential end of our Republic.

[Maureen]

I'm wondering why you seem to have so much invested in this argument. It's interesting to me that you are also using a common LDS defense of living vs. dead prophet, when you aren't even a member yourself.

Are you saying I'm not allowed to remind you (LDS) what you believe; that living prophets trump dead prophets, because I'm non-LDS?

My LDS friend believes in this prophecy, or she did about 25 years ago; and I'm assuming she still does. I guess I'm just fascinated that LDS beliefs are ever evolving. Certain words can be considered prophetic at one time and then just a few decades later, their seriousness is questioned.

M.

[pam]

Maureen, my mom was discussing this with me just a few days ago. She was brought up with the whole "hanging by a thread" thing only to find out it was never substantiated. I understand where you are coming from. But I think we get some modern interpretation or clarification to what former Prophets and GA's may have said or meant during their time.

I understand the point you are trying to make.

[Maureen]

Maureen, my mom was discussing this with me just a few days ago. She was brought up with the whole "hanging by a thread" thing only to find out it was never substantiated....

If the words are mentioned in General Conference and are attributed as a prophecy, does that not make them valid? And if one prophet sees the words as prophetic, what happens over time to make them loose their prophetic validity?

M.

Edited March 20, 2010 by Maureen

[pam]

Even Orson Hyde did not believe Joseph Smith said those exact words. I think sometimes early records are misinterpreted as to what a Prophet actually said and corrections by later Prophets have to be made.

Here is a quote by Orson Hyde concerning it:

It is said that brother Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it. This may be so; but I do not recollect that he said exactly so. I believe he said something like this—that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it. —Orson Hyde, "Self-Government, etc.", Journal of Discourses 6:152 (Jan. 3, 1858)