House Passes Health Care Reform

[rameumptom]

This, I think everyone can agree with.

I'd be a bit curious, though, as to which founding father you would listen to.

Would you listen to Thomas Jefferson, who pushed for a unique, hands off-government and had a vision of an America of agrarian utopia and then went out and used public funds for the Louisiana Purchase?

Would you listen to Alexander Hamilton, who pushed for the development of an Urban America where manageable debt was incurred as a kind of international currency to allow the US to garner aid if it were ever at war?

George Washington agreed with Hamilton, but Ben Franklin agreed with Jefferson.

That's just monetary concerns. War, international strife. The Founding Fathers agreed with one thing: The Constitution as a living document, able to adapt to the conditions of the world. It was a simple document for a reason; It allowed the government to adapt and change.

I agree that it has been hijacked by those who don't seek the best for America, but I am always a bit wary whenever I hear these words as they inevitably are married to quotes by Jefferson. What, specifically, were you thinking of when you said we should get back to what the founding fathers preached?

However, I think both Jefferson and Hamilton would be awe-struck by the level of debt incurred and the growth of government. Neither would like what they see today.

We have destroyed the Constitution of the United States. The genie is now out of the bottle, there is no going back without a major change in Washington DC, and in the electorate. But then it was the dumb masses of America who elected both GWBush and BHObama....

[rameumptom]

I actually am for health care reform. However, Just as the original stimulus package had little stimulus and lots of bribes, so is this health care package.

Originally, it was to reduce costs, etc. Barak Obama campaigned on health care, but fought Hillary Clinton on requiring universal coverage. We now have universal coverage. This piece of garbage required bribing Democrats to the tune of billions of dollars! Instead of reducing costs, it increases many of them. Medicare/Medicaid are financially broke to the tune of $Trillions in unfunded liabilities, and yet we're taking $500Billion out of them to finance other sections of health care.

There is no competition across state lines. There is no tort reform. This is lacking many, many things. The House Republicans submitted over 100 amendments, but Nancy Pelosi called them all out of order, and wouldn't consider a single one of them. So much for bi-partisanship.

Pres Obama claims it will save $138 Billion. I heard Nancy Pelosi claim it would save $1.3 Trillion! Come on, now! Let's be real! Lawrence Odonnell from MSNBC, and who is a self-proclaimed liberal Keynesian came out and said this is the biggest tax increase in the US History by a large margin. He doesn't like this bill, because it doesn't do what Obama and Pelosi claim it is. They are passing a monstrosity that will speed the bankruptcy of our health care system, and perhaps our nation. Then no one will have health care.

[rameumptom]

just wanted to let everyone know that according to gallup, presidential approval ratings have gone up since the vote last night...so despite what republicans are saying about Americans hating this...there are clearly some who don't, otherwise, ratings would have dropped.

Or it may be that people are just relieved to have the discussion over. I think the president has used up all of his political capital on this one. Many democrats will not be willing to take up any other controversial bills this year, such as immigration.

I like Pres Obama. The reason why this bill was so long in taking affect is that he sat on the sidelines until the past 2 weeks. Imagine if he would have had a meeting with both sides 8 months ago, and then looked for some real compromise. One Republican actually offered a bill with vouchers for all American families to buy basic health insurance, and then everyone could purchase more on their own if they wished. But it wasn't even considered, because Obama turned the whole thing over to Nancy Pelosi.

He mishandled it by not acting like a president, but rather as an innocent bystander. And he mishandled it by giving it over to the most liberal people in Congress to create, destroying any hopes of bipartisanship.

[mrbeanroxs]

Speaking of.....do the lawsuits being filed by the majority of the States over this bill have any teeth?

I'm not sure about that. But it looks like Utah will be joining the lawsuit: ksl.com - Utah to join lawsuit over health care bill, Shurtleff says

[FunkyTown]

However, I think both Jefferson and Hamilton would be awe-struck by the level of debt incurred and the growth of government. Neither would like what they see today.

We have destroyed the Constitution of the United States. The genie is now out of the bottle, there is no going back without a major change in Washington DC, and in the electorate. But then it was the dumb masses of America who elected both GWBush and BHObama....

Hahah. No doubt.

Hamilton said that a little debt was good, because it acted as a 'currency of dependability' of sorts. If you could be counted on to repay your debt, the international community would be more likely to loan you money during wartime. He said that the US would grow and their manufacturing base would far outstretch the debt they incurred.

Wise words. At the beginning of the nation. He helped forge the US in to the urbanized powerhouse it became. Far more of Hamilton shaped the US than Jefferson, since Jefferson perceived that everyone would be a land-owner and saw the US as developing in to an agrarian paradise.

As you said, however, the genie is out of the bottle. The US manufacturing basis will not continue to grow indefinitely and countless empty factories testify to this. Continuing to accrue debt without accounting for a post-industrial society is just stupid and poor planning.

Ultimately, the vision of both no longer applies. The US is confused. The crashes of the 80s led to the bubbles of the 90s and 00s and now, neither government nor voter has a clear vision for what the united states should be.

Ultimately, that is the greatest strength for the neo-federalists(Which I would assume you are? Just a guess, based on what you've said in the past.) - They have a very clear vision for what America should be. There's no doubt that, if they took control, the US would be very distinctive from any where else in the world.

Would it work? I don't know. Would it be compassionate? I don't know. Neo-federalists propose some radical changes. Many of them quote Jefferson like there's no tomorrow and often forget that the founding fathers had some fundamental disagreements. However, no one can doubt that they have a very strong view of what they want for America. I'd like to read a manifesto on neo-federalism, written by the people championing it. As it is, there are very few specifics on how people would fix government.

[Guest Godless]

The House Republicans submitted over 100 amendments, but Nancy Pelosi called them all out of order, and wouldn't consider a single one of them. So much for bi-partisanship.

Pelosi and others on the left have said that the bill includes over 200 amendments proposed by Republicans. I did some snooping around and found a couple of articles on this issue, one from the White House and the other from Slate. The Slate article includes an (probably incomplete) Excel file that lists Republican Amendments and their final disposition. I wish I had a better source, but that's all I could find for now. In any case, it seems clear that at least a handful of Republican amendments were considered and passed.

Personally, I'm very glad that this legislation was passed. I think the timing was odd given the magnitude of our domestic economic problems, but this needed to be done. That said, I lament the fact that there was so much mudslinging and deception from both sides. And while I acknowledge and resent the fact that the Left was guilty of this, I admit that the bulk of my disgust is directed at the Right.

Republicans and Tea Party activists have gone on and on about the lack of bipartisanship and clarity during this process, and I feel that they only have themselves to blame. Reactionist rhetoric and fear-mongering kill bipartisanship. The claims that this bill is a slap in the face to the Founding Fathers and that it will destroy the Constitution are absurd and unfounded. How can you expect bipartisanship when the loudest voices on your side are the ones spewing such vile garbage? Questions and concerns about legislation should be answered with objective truth, not unbased falsehoods aimed at creating fear. I think conservatives ought to be ashamed of themselves for turning what should have been a rational bipartisan effort into a shouting match with empty rhetoric overshadowing the truth.

Like I said, I'm not saying that the Left acted completely honorably during this process, so if you want to counter my accusations with some of your own, go right ahead. Chances are good that I won't disagree with you.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Godless

[MarginOfError]

Or it may be that people are just relieved to have the discussion over. I think the president has used up all of his political capital on this one. Many democrats will not be willing to take up any other controversial bills this year, such as immigration.

I like Pres Obama. The reason why this bill was so long in taking affect is that he sat on the sidelines until the past 2 weeks. Imagine if he would have had a meeting with both sides 8 months ago, and then looked for some real compromise. One Republican actually offered a bill with vouchers for all American families to buy basic health insurance, and then everyone could purchase more on their own if they wished. But it wasn't even considered, because Obama turned the whole thing over to Nancy Pelosi.

He mishandled it by not acting like a president, but rather as an innocent bystander. And he mishandled it by giving it over to the most liberal people in Congress to create, destroying any hopes of bipartisanship.

Amen! One of the reasons I voted for Obama was some of his history of bring opposing sides to a table and helping them hash out an agreement. I was really disappointed when he started his "separation of powers" thing and left it to Congress to sort things out.

By the way, in my view, Congress is like a bunch of children fighting over a box of cookies. Not one of them has a rational argument, every one of them is doing it out of selfishness, and by the time a deal over the cookies has been made, the box is so damaged that the cookies are nothing but powdered crumbs.

[Wingnut]

Mmmm...cookie. Now where is that box of Girl Scout cookies I opened last night?

[Faded]

Its official. The Senate version of the Health Care bill is going to President Obama for his signature.

Kind of inevitable. Health Care really is in crisis, and the only argument is deciding what to do about it.

Health care costs too much and it keeps escalating. At the first of the year, I went to fill a prescription I have to take every day. Last year's copay = $35. This year's copay for the same prescription = $97.

Malpractice lawsuits have driven costs up. Lack of regulation has often let costs climb without good reason. Over-dependence on insurance companies with fat wallets have led medical providers to excuse themselves in overcharging.

The question isn't, "Is there a problem?" the real question is, "How do we solve it?"

Hope this solution isn't a complete disaster ...

[Elphaba]

By the way, in my view, Congress is like a bunch of children fighting over a box of cookies. Not one of them has a rational argument, every one of them is doing it out of selfishness, and by the time a deal over the cookies has been made, the box is so damaged that the cookies are nothing but powdered crumbs.

YouTube - Crazy Simpson-The Shell Game

Elph

[talisyn]

I'm excited/shocked/bewildered that this passed. Healthcare in this country needs changes, and if the healthcare industry that should be policing themselves isn't gonna do something about it then someone has too. Honestly, I am shocked it passed. It almost wipes out my comfy cynicism about politicians. More than a few people are gonna lose their re-election bid but voted for it anyways. My hat tips to them.

[talisyn]

By the way,..... Pharmaceutical Companies and Health Insurance companies are going to make billions.....they are HUGE winners in this bill.

Most wouldn't have known it by the amount of dollars they were funneling into ads and congressmen against this bill

[Moksha]

Thank you, House Dems, for giving the Republicans back the Congress this November. :)

Let's hope they make repealing health care for all their number one issue.

[Moksha]

By the way,..... Pharmaceutical Companies and Health Insurance companies are going to make billions.....they are HUGE winners in this bill.

They made billions before hand. Imagine the difficulties the Democrats would have faced by not allowing these groups to continue siphoning our health care dollars. Besides, if it were not Democrats doing this, wouldn't these corporate giveaways be considered not only a good thing but the American way?

Edited March 23, 2010 by Moksha

[bytor2112]

Let's hope they make repealing health care for all their number one issue.

Health Care for...all? Seriously? Who is getting health care? In 2014 we will be FORCED to buy health insurance or incur the wrath of the IRS.

[bytor2112]

They made billions before hand. Imagine the difficulties the Democrats would have faced by not allowing these groups to continue siphoing our health care dollars. Besides, if it were not Democrats doing this, wouldn't these corporate giveaways be considered not only a good thing but the American way?

Oh the irony and hypocrisy of it all.........

[bytor2112]

For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.

[Moksha]

Oh the irony and hypocrisy of it all.........

Agreed.

[Moksha]

For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.

Hope this is from the Book of Mormon rather than Timothy McVeigh.

[bytor2112]

Hope this is from the Book of Mormon rather than Timothy McVeigh.

Helaman....distant cousin maybe?

[mightynancy]

House Passes Health Care Reform

Yay!

[talisyn]

For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.

I totally agree. But I have a feeling we're not agreeing on who this statement applies to

[rameumptom]

Hahah. No doubt.

Hamilton said that a little debt was good, because it acted as a 'currency of dependability' of sorts. If you could be counted on to repay your debt, the international community would be more likely to loan you money during wartime. He said that the US would grow and their manufacturing base would far outstretch the debt they incurred.

Would it work? I don't know. Would it be compassionate? I don't know. Neo-federalists propose some radical changes. Many of them quote Jefferson like there's no tomorrow and often forget that the founding fathers had some fundamental disagreements. However, no one can doubt that they have a very strong view of what they want for America. I'd like to read a manifesto on neo-federalism, written by the people championing it. As it is, there are very few specifics on how people would fix government.

I am not a neo-Federalist. I think Hamilton was wise, in stating a "little" debt. To add to that, he also insisted on America paying its debts. The USA took up all the debt of the states and federal government, and paid them off over time. We aren't doing that right now. We are just increasing our debt, to the point where we won't be able to pay off anything.

I personally believe most things should be left to the states and local governments. Romney was correct in doing health care for the state of Massachusetts, but not for the federal level. Freedom requires that each state be the laboratory for discovery. If it doesn't work, it doesn't destroy the entire nation, and if it does work, other states will soon emulate it. If one state wishes to have abortion and another doesn't, then each individual can choose which state he/she wishes to dwell in, without imposing such a notion on everyone across the nation. This is in keeping with key freedoms espoused in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution.

Is there a role for the US Government? Of course. In difficult times they should step in and provide for the General Welfare. The Constitution defines its role: standing army, regulate foreign affairs and affairs between the States, Judiciary, and a few other things to this effect.

Freedom means we have to allow Americans to succeed OR fail. We don't bail out banks that took ridiculous risks. We don't bail out car manufacturers that weren't responsive to the American people. We don't sign free trade agreements with China, then allow China to cheat. And we don't allow the Feds to go trillions of dollars into debt, and tens of trillions in unfunded liabilities, simply so they can feel they are doing something nice for their constituents. States cannot carry debt, but the Feds can, but it will soon end and all of us will end in ruin, because there will be no one to bail out California, much less all the country.

[rameumptom]

I totally agree. But I have a feeling we're not agreeing on who this statement applies to

It applies to both Republicans and Democrats. All are spending money like Steve Buscemi's character in the movie Armageddon. "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!"

Government spending money does not denote charity, nor efficiency. And when government is deep in debt and then comes up with another Trillion dollar expense, it becomes, as liberal MSNBC commentator Lawrence O'Donnell states, the biggest tax increase in American history. Yet that huge tax increase still does not pay for all of it, as there are still tens of trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities. We can't afford anymore Republican or Democratic largesse.

Countries that have done this in the past ended up experiencing one of two events: 1. they suffer hyper-inflation (imagine the dollar declining by 200% or more in one year), and/or 2. the country collapses and breaks up into smaller governments (i.e.; Soviet Union went bankrupt and broke into smaller pieces).

So, what will you have? A loaf of bread for $20? Or the Divided Nation-States of America?

[Guest]

Tell me again...

How does mandatory HEALTH INSURANCE = HEALTH CARE?