My Plan -- What do you think?

[Guest mormonmusic]

My daughter is 11, and her friends at Church are mean. After Church last week, my daughter broke into tears as she described how two girls from active families in our Church took all her belongings out of her scripture case and hid them around the room and parts of the Chapel, and wouldn't give them back. They pick on her regularly she said, and her efforts to defend herself are kind and mature, from what she tells me.

Last time, they said a number of mean things that I won't repeat, but I felt my temperature rising as I thought of the impact going to Church had on my daughter. She has such a good, sensitive and honest heart....

The plan is to teach the Primary class where the offending girls will be in attendance because the regular teacher is away; i will be a substitute teacher. I'm weaving in a case about a group of boys who are on a backpacking trip, and take one boy's stuff -- and hide it all over the forest, and won't give it back -- and treat them boy meanly. I will then ask follow-up questions like

1. How many of you would want to be good friends with these boys who hid the boy's belongings...?

2. If you were the boy, how would you remember the ringleader of this group of boys in future years (the ones who stole his stuff)?

3. Why do you think the boys are mean to the boy in this situation? What could their motives possibly be?

4. What would you do if you were the boy?

5. If you were an adult leader, what would you do about the boys who were mean?

6. What do you think the Savior thinks of boys who treat Heavenly Father's children this way?

And then leave it at that...comments? We thought of talking to the parents, but we tried a while ago and they are unresponsive....their response is that our daughter needs to be more assertive, so fooey on that...Comments on the plan?

Edited March 25, 2010 by mormonmusic

[BenRaines]

It will be obvious to those girls involved that you are referring to them even though indirectly. Being the parent of the child involved will make it even more obvious. If you could get the regular teacher to tell this story it would not reflect so much on your daughter.

Ben Raines

[Elgama]

Personally i would be more direct, I would tell the girls that you know about their behaviour explain it is unacceptable to the Lord and bullying is not right or Christlike and if it continues you will tell their parents and the Bishop, because you will not allow them to continue to treat your daughter this way, And if necessary you go and sit with her.

I am fed up dealing with Adult Bullies right now and all my life I have run into people who find bullying acceptable they always find the most righteous, intelligent person and try to rip them apart. Right now my branch is being torn apart by an adult bully. Their behaviour is wrong and they should be told that THEIR behavior is wrong in no uncertain terms now.

[Iggy]

LDS.org - Friend Article - Stop Bullying Now

Hilary M. Hendricks, “Stop Bullying Now,” Friend, Sep 2009, 6–7

Perhaps this will help. There is also an article in the New Era that you can look up. Just go to Gospel Library at lds.org, Magaizines and do a search using the word, bullying.

Now I know where I saw this- right here on the forum: Connie started a thread already in the Parenting section. I don't know how to link to it. http://www.lds.net/forums/parenting/31151-bullying.html#post488320 Yippee- it worked.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Iggy

[Gwen]

keeping an eye on this thread might help http://www.lds.net/forums/parenting/31151-bullying.html

i agree with ben, distance it from your daughter a bit more. talk to the primary pres about doing a sharing time on it, or use different stories so it's not so personal. have you talked to your daughter about the plan? what does she think?

[MarginOfError]

You should not be the one to do this. If they sense nepotism, it will only make matters worse for your daughter. Ideally, it should be on of their parents.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Personally i would be more direct, I would tell the girls that you know about their behaviour explain it is unacceptable to the Lord and bullying is not right or Christlike and if it continues you will tell their parents and the Bishop, because you will not allow them to continue to treat your daughter this way, And if necessary you go and sit with her.

I am fed up dealing with Adult Bullies right now and all my life I have run into people who find bullying acceptable they always find the most righteous, intelligent person and try to rip them apart. Right now my branch is being torn apart by an adult bully. Their behaviour is wrong and they should be told that THEIR behavior is wrong in no uncertain terms now.

In making the decision, I proposed this direct approach to my aughter -- it's important for me to come up with solutions she feels comfortable so she doesn't hold back information in the future -- for fear her Dad will come out with guns blazing and embarrass her.

She rejected the direct approach.

I'm also uncomfortable with it because it is an indirect confrontation to the parents as well. We've been a bit frustrated with the parents as we spoke to them on one occasion, and they saw this as natural behavior among girls, and did nothing.....So, that's why she liked this less direct approach. She's also afraid of a backlash from the girls because she "talked" and got them into trouble.

Regarding the kids knowing that my case is really an analogy to their own behavior -- I'm not convinced they are that street smart -- adults would definitely see into the situation, but kids -- I'm not convinced.

I did this indirect technique a year ago with a male bully in our Ward -- similar situation -- the kids ganged up on my daughter (she's really short and an easy target), to the point she refused to attend social activities with the families outside of church. He was the ring leader and got together with the two girls that are currently tormenting my daughter and did some really mean and cruel things.

I approached him and asked him if he could help me with something -- that my daughter had told me someone at the social events was doing cruel things, but she wouldn't tell me who it was (yes, a little white lie to prevent retaliation). I told him I saw him as a leader among the other kids, with influence, and an example, and would he mind seeing the other kids were kinder to each other, and to my daughter. Otherwise I'd have to get involved, find out who it was and meet with parents to make sure it stopped. And that I was counting on him. He looked really confused at the time, and I don't think he saw into the "between the lines" message I was giving him -- but then stepped up to the challenge, according to my daughter.

My daughter noticed an improvement after that, and she started attending activities again.

The kid has since moved, and one of the girls -- has taken his place as resident bully.

The other thing, because this issue was so important to her, I tried to turn it into a revelation-seeking, spiritual decision-making exercise.

We read D&C 9 about seeking revelation and making decisions when she explained her problem -- and we came up with the three options -- direct discussion, teacher gives a lesson, father gives a lesson, and she thought the latter was the one she wanted. We knelt and prayed and listened and when she got up she said he thought the last option was still the right one. However, she also said she didn't feel anything really strong in the prayer.

So, so far, I went with what she thought was best.

Another issue -- I don't want to invalidate the "seeking answers in prayer" experience although I'm obviously personally undecided if it's the best thing and she claims no burning in the bosom or spiritual feeling came to her during the prayer.

I'm going to give her the articles on bullying, though. Thanks for those. More comments are welcome.

[another issue, because she didnt' feel anything, I think she feels a bit uncertain about whether D&C 9 even works -- it might've hurt her faith because she said "you told me this before, and I never feel a burning in my bosom" -- but that's a whole other issue]

Edited March 25, 2010 by mormonmusic

[applepansy]

How about the Primary President or Bishop approaching the girls and their parents?

[Gwen]

i'm concerned that the parents think this is "normal" girl stuff. yes girls can be mean but so can anyone. there is no excuse other than the parents let it happen. might try asking the parents if they also plan on raising their grand babies since that is pretty normal behavior for teen girls these days.

[Wingnut]

It will aggravate the problem to have Daddy standing up for his little girl. It's not a good idea.

[Wisc]

My opinion is following.... Brace yourself!

I would politely call the girls out openly. (I also like your approach to the male bully. Excellent tactic) If you see them in the hall between classes do something like say, "Hi sister so and so. Did you enjoy inviting the spirit last sunday by hiding my daughters things and picking on her?"

or buy them a small gift and when you give it to them tell them that you know how much getting attention means to them so you got them a gift so they wont have to try to make themselves feel good by harassing other kids.

A little public jolt to their ego is a good thing. :) Lets them know that they're not that clever and not getting away with much.

And I agree that it should be Daddy (or big brother etc) who does this because if a little girl cant count on her family to stand up for her then who can she count on? Its comepletely ok to have the Bishop or the Teacher or the other Parents confront the girls if thats easier for the situation but it SHOULD be clear to the girls that the family of the picked on girl is who brought the situation to light and is always watching out for thier little girl.

A lesson for all bullies; cave quid dicis, quando, et cui

Beware of what you say, when, and to whom

Edited March 25, 2010 by Wisc

[Gwen]

i agree that the secrecy is part of this and getting it out in the open is a good way to make it come to an end. but i think it should your daughter to take that approach. if you do it then there is a grown man picking on 11 yr old girls... not cool.

but if your daughter has the courage she can try things like asking if she can make an announcement about her "lost" items that these girls took. explaining how they got lost and that she would really like to find them. or when they quietly call her names responding very loudly with a tone of 'get a life', "are you seriously so bored at church you are going to call me names? grow up" once everyone is looking they are the ones that get embarrassed.

[Wisc]

i agree that the secrecy is part of this and getting it out in the open is a good way to make it come to an end. but i think it should your daughter to take that approach. if you do it then there is a grown man picking on 11 yr old girls... not cool.

but if your daughter has the courage she can try things like asking if she can make an announcement about her "lost" items that these girls took. explaining how they got lost and that she would really like to find them. or when they quietly call her names responding very loudly with a tone of 'get a life', "are you seriously so bored at church you are going to call me names? grow up" once everyone is looking they are the ones that get embarrassed.

misread your post so editing mine. :) Good post.

[MarginOfError]

I'm also uncomfortable with it because it is an indirect confrontation to the parents as well. We've been a bit frustrated with the parents as we spoke to them on one occasion, and they saw this as natural behavior among girls, and did nothing.....So, that's why she liked this less direct approach. She's also afraid of a backlash from the girls because she "talked" and got them into trouble.

Well someone needs to smack the parents upside the head. They're right that this is perfectly natural behavior among girls, but that doesn't mean you don't address it. In fact, not addressing it is, to them, a sign that their behavior is appropriate. I'm happy to volunteer to smack them for you.

Regarding the kids knowing that my case is really an analogy to their own behavior -- I'm not convinced they are that street smart -- adults would definitely see into the situation, but kids -- I'm not convinced.

It makes no difference if you are convinced that they will or they won't. If they do, then your daughter is toast. It's not a chance worth taking. Oh, and by the way, when it gets brought up, you want them to know that it's being directed at them. They need to know that their behavior--specifically their behavior--is inappropriate. And it needs to be done by someone that isn't you.

I did this indirect technique a year ago with a male bully in our Ward -- similar situation -- the kids ganged up on my daughter (she's really short and an easy target), to the point she refused to attend social activities with the families outside of church. He was the ring leader and got together with the two girls that are currently tormenting my daughter and did some really mean and cruel things.

I approached him and asked him if he could help me with something -- that my daughter had told me someone at the social events was doing cruel things, but she wouldn't tell me who it was (yes, a little white lie to prevent retaliation). I told him I saw him as a leader among the other kids, with influence, and an example, and would he mind seeing the other kids were kinder to each other, and to my daughter. Otherwise I'd have to get involved, find out who it was and meet with parents to make sure it stopped. And that I was counting on him. He looked really confused at the time, and I don't think he saw into the "between the lines" message I was giving him -- but then stepped up to the challenge, according to my daughter.

My daughter noticed an improvement after that, and she started attending activities again.

The kid has since moved, and one of the girls -- has taken his place as resident bully.

He noticed. Otherwise the other girls probably wouldn't have picked where he left off.

Get your bishop involved. This would be a place where it might help if he stepped up, told the parents to start parenting and address the situation.

[Guest]

Caving in to political correctness in a bullying situation is just another way to get bullied.

Why wait for a lesson to sneak the message in? Why bother waiting for a chance with the parents/teachers/bishop/whatever? Go to the girls, ask them what is going on and tell them what they're doing is not welcome in your family and if they don't stop there will be consequences. Tell your daughter to prepare for more bullying if they take it out on her but that you will be there to fight side by side. Stand up for what you know is right!

The only way to stop a bully is for your daughter to show them she can't be bullied.

[Gwen]

something you can do for your daughter in the meantime is teach her how not to be a target. the bullies pick her for a reason. i am in no way saying it is her fault. but there are things she can do to reduce the odds of being targeted. how is her posture and body language? does she make good eye contact when talking to ppl? can she speak confidently or forcefully if needed? those kinds of things change a lot. if she is being targeted at church she may be at school as well.

[Wingnut]

My opinion is following.... Brace yourself!

I would politely call the girls out openly. (I also like your approach to the male bully. Excellent tactic) If you see them in the hall between classes do something like say, "Hi sister so and so. Did you enjoy inviting the spirit last sunday by hiding my daughters things and picking on her?"

or buy them a small gift and when you give it to them tell them that you know how much getting attention means to them so you got them a gift so they wont have to try to make themselves feel good by harassing other kids.

A little public jolt to their ego is a good thing. :) Lets them know that they're not that clever and not getting away with much.

And I agree that it should be Daddy (or big brother etc) who does this because if a little girl cant count on her family to stand up for her then who can she count on? Its comepletely ok to have the Bishop or the Teacher or the other Parents confront the girls if thats easier for the situation but it SHOULD be clear to the girls that the family of the picked on girl is who brought the situation to light and is always watching out for thier little girl.

A lesson for all bullies; cave quid dicis, quando, et cui

Beware of what you say, when, and to whom

Fighting public humiliation with more public humiliation will not help things. If anything, it will also further aggravate the issue: what happens when those girls go tell their parents, who then retaliate against the OP and his daughter?

[Wisc]

Fighting public humiliation with more public humiliation will not help things. If anything, it will also further aggravate the issue: what happens when those girls go tell their parents, who then retaliate against the OP and his daughter?

I had a guy picking on my younger brother. Bully was my age- 2 years older than my brother. I caught him alone and informed him that if he kept it up things would get ugly for him. The very next day he decided to call my bluff and pushed my brother down and kicked him in the stomache at school. Ten minutes later when I found out about it I found him and proceeded to beat the tar out of him for several minutes before being pulled off by 3 teachers and a coach. He never messed with my brother again.

This is an extream example and I do NOT advise it. However the lesson is I tried to be civil and take care of it without violence and in private. When that failed I showed him the err of his way. Publicly.

Bully's pick on others for status. So, the best way to stop their behavior is to nip their status in the bud in front of their peers. Im Not suggesting violence. But dont lilly foot around political correctness either as one poster pointed out. Call them out for what they are doing right there when it happens. If those girls take your stuff at church then announce to the class that so and so have taken your stuff and you can not get them to return it. And point out that its not the first time they have done this to you.

You dont have to be mean or angry to stand up for yourself. You just gotta stand up for your self. Afterwords do not hold grudges. Let them know you do not see them as enemies but their mistreatment of you will not be tolorated.

[Guest mormonmusic]

No one addressed the prayer and the decision made as a result of it -- another shade to this issue.

I have a few things to respond to:

MOE: I'm not sure the other kid 'got it' that I was talking about him through implication.

The parents only learned I did it after my wife told them months afterwards, and they weren't offended -- they were different parents than the ones described above (the girl ringleader's parents). Also, it's this girl's nature to be this way, with or without the boy ringleader in the mix.

I also don't want to involve the Bishop in these kinds of problems unless my best efforts have failed. There's a saying that "conflicts should be handled at the lowest level in the organization" and the attempts of my daughter to resolve this with the girls have failed. The girls just don't care. Our attempt at the parents also failed. I see this approach as the next step up.

I admire people that solve problems without sending it up the food chain. I can't rely on the Primary President because she's my wife. Regarding my daughter being toast if the kids find out -- she's already toast -- as I've said, this has been on ongoing issue.

Public Humiliation: I don't see this as public humiliation at all -- it would be public humiliation if I was naming names and calling out the ringleader and her cronies in public, but I'm not. It's all by implication.

However, I'm considering writing the scenario for discussion so it's more heavily disguised, or leaving it out entirely and using the bullying articles in the Friend to define bullying and discuss it generally. Not sure.

Wisc -- there is no way I'm going to give a gift to these girls. However, I spoke to my daughter about building a strong relationship by inviting a follower to the ringleader girl on some family activities to strengthen the relationship there. But I think giving a gift would send the wrong message -- it would reinforce the bullying behavior.

The comment that this is a case of a grown man picking on 11 year old girls carries very little weight in my view -- you could use that argument against teachers disciplining children everywhere. If I do this lesson thing, it's not picking on them -- it's gentle intervention in my view.

Failing the lesson-teaching approach, I do see the merits of a direct approach with these girls. Problem is, the ringleader really DOES NOT CARE WHAT ADULTS THINK. I've been with her on a field trip, and in many social situations in our home, and she is incredibly disobedient. I think hearing how other members of the class -- her peers -- would react to a person in a case that mirrors her own behavior might carry more weight than a direct reprimand from an adult -- if status is the true motive of bullying as others have implied. It will be interesting to see what happens on Sunday, and what I end up doing, as you all have me thinking, notwithstanding my comments above....

Edited March 26, 2010 by mormonmusic

[JudoMinja]

I do not have any direct advice for you as there are many ways to handle bullying, all of them unique to the situation and people involved. However, I have an experience I can share that may be of some help.

My family moved right before I turned twelve. We moved a lot, because my dad was in the military, but this move was particularly trying for me because I had just made my first real close friend. It was hard to see that friendship get split by long distance.

The place we moved to was not a military base as my dad was a recruiter, so the people there were not used to having new-comers. Everyone there grew up together, knew each other very well, and had formed their little social structure. My new school placed me in their honors program, because they said their school was easier than the one I'd come from, in which I'd been getting very good grades. I was able to handle the new, heavy, academic load, but the social change was too much for me.

The honors program was a clique. Many of the children in there were only in the program because their parents had requested it for status and said parents often did their kids homework for them. Ringleaders of this clique were three girls in the young womens program I had just entered at church.

I got picked on and ostracized for the better part of a year before I just couldn't take it any more. I didn't say anything about the bullying to my parents, determined to handle it on my own, but I did tell them that I couldn't handle the honors program. Without asking me why, they let me drop it for regular classes. There I was able to make a friend, but I was still the outsider at church. I ignored the bullying and usually did my own thing, but it still bothered me.

Finally, I decided that I needed to confront the girls. I told my parents about what had been going on, and they arranged for us to have a meeting with the bishop so I could confront them with a mediator present. This was completely unnecessary though, because that Sunday the lesson was about forgiveness and it really touched me. I pulled those girls aside after the lesson (without the Bishop) to let them know that their behavior had been very hurtful to me, that I had pulled away socially to avoid getting hurt, I was sorry I hadn't let them know, and I forgave them. After that, the bullying stopped. We didn't really become friends, but we respected each other and got along just fine (until my family moved again ).

[Gwen]

The comment that this is a case of a grown man picking on 11 year old girls carries very little weight in my view -- you could use that argument against teachers disciplining children everywhere. If I do this lesson thing, it's not picking on them -- it's gentle intervention in my view.

my comment about a grown man picking on kids was in reference to wisc's suggestion of making comments in the hall to them. not your lesson. discipline by someone in the position to do it isn't the same as someone making comments to draw attention.

i have used the lesson approach before. it was after much prayer. i was teaching the youth sunday school, we had about 6 young men at the time (no yw). my stepson was one of them. there was a situation i felt i needed to talk to my stepson about but it felt inappropriate to me to do it "directly". i try very hard not to say things that are "negative" toward mom no matter how true they may be. so i planned out my lesson, very carefully to teach the principle (yes it went well with the lesson that week) without bringing out our situation specifically. i decided to pray that he would bring the principle into his own situation on his own. in the course of the lesson some of the other boys shared personal experiences where this principle fit in their life. i felt prompted that it was appropriate to bring out our situation. not in detail, just enough to draw the line for him to ponder. the spirit was present and i think it went very well. i don't know if the issue is 100% resolved, but for the most part it doesn't weigh on my mind and heart like it did before the lesson. one of those things i'm trying to leave up to god. i am very well aware of how horribly this could have backfired on me.

if you have prayed about it and you feel this is the right answer then follow that. be prepared to alter the lesson based on promptings you get, either to be more direct or exclude some of it all together. i think you should not be afraid to include the bishop. even if you aren't asking for his help he needs to know what is going on in his ward. your wife as primary pres needs to let him know she has issues with some of the girls and who they are. it's amazing what bishop interviews can accomplish. i know bishops are busy but i think the youth and primary don't get near enough interviews with the bishop.

[HoosierGuy]

Why not tell the Bishop about this and ask him to deal with this problem that you nor your child started.

[ladykemma2]

as a high school teacher i would also instruct your daughter not to be a target. in other words do not her put belongings down or leave them where others can get to them. be self contained. do not give the bullies opportunity.

im my school i warn the girls not to put their purse down and if their purse gets stolen no sympathy from me - they were warned.

there are no victims, only volunteers.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Why not tell the Bishop about this and ask him to deal with this problem that you nor your child started.

I said earlier that I believe conflicts should be handled at the lowest level in the organization. That means girl to girl -- and that hasn't worked. Then we tried parent to parent, that hasn't worked.

My next level will be the parent of the victim and the offending girl as I try to touch her with the Spirit.

Not sure I can agree with Gwen that there are no victims, only volunteers. In the kind of world I want, people are free to carry their belongings reasonably in public, stand up to help a teacher, and then return to their seat and find her belongings haven't been vandalized, stolen.

The thing that makes her daughter a target is her size, in my view. And we can't change that. Nor did she volunteer to be that way, as I didn't.

Sunday is fast approaching, and tomorrow will be a day of preparation for the lesson -- it feels right, for now.

[Gwen]

Not sure I can agree with Gwen that there are no victims, only volunteers.

not exactly what i said. there are victims. i also like to consider all aspects of the situation. there is nothing that excuses such behavior and it should be addressed. i'm glad you are a caring enough parent to get involved. it's important for a girl to know her parents (her dad) will be there for her.