Same Gender Attractions: A "Special" Adversity?

[Finrock]

Good afternoon GaySaint! :)

We certainly agree here. Can't wait for that day, whatever the outcome :)

I can't wait either.

I don't offend easily. Feel free to be blunt. You have set everything you have said to me with a tone of respect, and I hope I have done the same. I feel very secure where I am in life, even if I can't explain why all the time (as I'm sure you feel with the gospel), so be blunt.

I will only be blunt when there is no better way to communicate my point, but I try very hard to never be malicious even when being blunt. You have been respectful.

Again, this is truth from your perspective confirmed by the spirit. I also feel truth in regards to this confirmed by the spirit. While that appears to be contradictory to you, it hasn't been in my experience. But again, that adds nothing to the discussion, other than to say that it is not right for you to question what God has told me just like it isn't right for me to question what God has told you. If my testimony is false, then so must my testimony be of Christ, because it was the same spirit. You cannot tell me one was correct and on was not when they have been so closely knit together by the spirit. I know that doesn't make sense to you, but that's ok. It isn't for you.

While the prophets have come out against homosexuality, they do so with the justification that it breaks the law of chastity BECAUSE it falls under the category of sex outside of marriage. If gay marriage were to be made legal, I do think this justification disappears (which is why I think the church is against gay marriage). Of course, we then get into the legitimacy of civil marriage vs. eternal marriage… and that is a dead horse I’m not going to start beating again (although there is another topic with my feelings on this).

Are these justifications the result of revelation, or of the human prejudice of man (I AM NOT criticizing church leaders here, simply stating that there hasn't been a "Thus saith the Lord" in this regard)?

Here is where we are fundamentally opposed in our views. You are only able to sustain your position by rejecting what is being taught by prophets, both living and dead, and what has been taught in both ancient and modern scripture. My view isn't just my perspective. It based on the words of true prophets of God and scripture. My view does not contradict revealed truth. I cannot accept that we are entitled to revelation and testimony that is in contradiction to the words of God's mouthpiece on earth.

The issues of marriage and chastity are tied together. Marriage was instituted by God and He defines the conditions. Whether the law of the land legalizes homosexual marriage or not is irrelevant to what marriage actually is. God has defined marriage to be between a man and a woman. How a secular government defines marriage would not actually change the institution of marriage because it is not within the secular government's power to define it. And since the law of chastity requires that no sexual relations to occur outside of marriage, the Church will always be justified in coming out against homosexuality. Unless, of course, God redefines marriage. If He declares that marriage is approved for homosexual couples, then, and only then, will sexual relations between homosexual persons be justified in the eyes of God.

In the end we are only accountable for our own choices. Although in some major points we are opposed, I respect your agency and I only come out against homosexuality because it is what God, through scripture and His prophets has taught. I see you as I see myself: a fallible man trying to do what he feels is right. If revealed truth were ever to change to include homosexual marriage as legitimate in the eyes of God, and it was declared so by the living prophet, I would accept it and all that it entails.

Kind Regards,

Finrock

Edited April 5, 2010 by Finrock
Fixed grammar and typo.

[GADBabaganoosh]

GAD: While I agree that there is a purpose in sex to procreate and have children, homosexuality is about much much more than sex, including spiritual, physical, and emotional connections.

I don't have access to the church handbook of instruction anymore, but there used to be a line in there about intimacy in marriage. It said something along the lines of "intimacy in marriage is not only to be used to create children, but to strengthen the relationship between the spouses."

Boyd K Packer said: “Romantic love is not only a part of life, but literally a dominating influence of it. It is deeply and significantly religious. There is no abundant life without it. Indeed, the highest degree of the celestial kingdom is unattainable in the absence of it” (BYU Fireside, Nov. 3, 1963).

I believe one of the differences between romantic love and the other types of love is the bond that forms between two people when they have sex.

So sex is about more than children, and homosexuality is about more than sex. I hope that helps.

Sure. I don't deny that love like that can exist between people of the same sex. But there is a physical attraction involved as well. Those, together works to make something that is in essence, futility. Why? Because it has never, and will never work with God's plan, no matter how much you want it to. To have many say the spirit told them is a general cop out. One says it, and another thinks its a good idea and says it too because they beleive it. It's a band wagon. It's easy to beleive, and easy to convince one's self. The spirit only testifies to the humble truth seeker. Trying to get the church to accept same sex marriage is, accepting the the worldly view and accepting that which the devil puts forth.

Overcoming something requires the atonement. I beleive the love can endure with someone of the same sex, as love for a brother or sister respectively. I beleive that one that is homosexual, can find love,with one of the opposite sex, and create an eternal family. (My brother-in-law taught a homosexual man on his mission. The man repented and married a woman he loved and got sealed in the temple. I don't know what his status is now.) So its possible.

God never gives us something we can't handle. But we have to humble ourselves and seek the lords help. If we don't do that, we end up convincing ourselves that we can do it ourselves, which again, ends up being futile.

You could find happiness in this life with a partner of the same sex, but it wouldn't last beyond that. God does not deny his children, his children deny themselves. If you set yourself on the road, i gaurantee you will find the greatest degree of happiness with God's plan. Humble yourself and pray on it.

[GaySaint]

Gad: Can I be honest? For the first time ever on these forums I find myself slightly upset. Do you honestly think LDS homosexuals come to their decisions lightly? Do you think we haven't humbled ourselves to pray? Do you think that we didn't spend years and years with a prayer either in our heart, in our heads, or on our knees? Do you think we didn’t serve, serve, and serve in hopes that maybe one day we would be worthy to be “healed” and finally have what the church wants for us?

You really have no clue what we, as gay members of the church, face. Please do not belittle us by claiming that if we are unable to change it must be because we are not humble or have been deceived. This thought process is in direct contradiction with “God Loveth His Children.”

Some of the people I know, including myself, have received answers at the most humble, pleading times in our lives.

When you say that we make excuses, or “cop out” and that what we feel is unimportant because it is futile, those are the things that make gay people feel worthless. Please be careful. I may be secure where I am at, but can you imagine saying those things to the twelve year old deacon who might be reading this while struggling to remain faithful to the church, and finding himself unable to change?

I've got to be done for tonight...

[GADBabaganoosh]

Gad: Can I be honest? For the first time ever on these forums I find myself slightly upset. Do you honestly think LDS homosexuals come to their decisions lightly? Do you think we haven't humbled ourselves to pray? Do you think that we didn't spend years and years with a prayer either in our heart, in our heads, or on our knees? Do you think we didn’t serve, serve, and serve in hopes that maybe one day we would be worthy to be “healed” and finally have what the church wants for us?

You really have no clue what we, as gay members of the church, face. Please do not belittle us by claiming that if we are unable to change it must be because we are not humble or have been deceived. This thought process is in direct contradiction with “God Loveth His Children.”

Some of the people I know, including myself, have received answers at the most humble, pleading times in our lives.

When you say that we make excuses, or “cop out” and that what we feel is unimportant because it is futile, those are the things that make gay people feel worthless. Please be careful. I may be secure where I am at, but can you imagine saying those things to the twelve year old deacon who might be reading this while struggling to remain faithful to the church, and finding himself unable to change?

I've got to be done for tonight...

My intentions weren't to offend. But you choose to be offended. And you choose to feel worthless. Theres not if's ands or buts. The prophets have said what the Prophets have said. The lord has laid out the plan.

An unwillingness to change is an unwillingness to change. It's like giving the heroin addict more heroin instead of the alternative, or the alcholic more alcohol. It helps a symptom rather than being a cure. (although being gay isn't disease i'm not saying that, i'm just making a point.)

Remember, you "came to your decision". You made your choice. The feelings are there, sure, but you chose to heed them. It is a choice, despite what many homosexuals might think.

I am being insensitive, its a fault of mine, and I apologize, but I don't want to tread lightly here like most people do on the issue because it's so unpopular.

The facts are, it is a struggle that many have. It is a struggle that can be overcome. It cannot be overcome by prayer alone, but by commitment and the atonement (like any struggle.) It could take years to overcome. Accepting that you have the feelings isn't the same as accepting the feelings.

Its probably something you need to keep at. You might humble yourselves and get answers at one point, but theres also a point where you give up. (i'm saying this out of my own experience with my own issues. I'm not gay, but i do have my own struggles.) We don't want to accept the hard answers. Thats when you just want it so you can be with a partner of the same sex. And want marriage. Thats a cop out.

Again sorry if this upsets you, i know you're struggling. I do have a small idea of what you're struggling through, but not on the same level I imagine. There is only one way through it. I have already illustrated that. And I'm not the authority on it either. Its my POV.

[GaySaint]

Gad: So as not to derail this conversation, I'm going to send you a PM.

[Traveler]

Traveler: So Second Nephi says, but defining Natural Man seems to be the difficult thing.

Some people call homosexuality unnatural. By such definition, homosexuality would be more virtuous than heterosexuality (which would be defined by these people as natural).

So could you define "natural man" for me?

Oops: Mosiah... lol. I was thinking 2 Ne 2:27. I MEANT Mosiah 3:19, ha!

I would define a natural man as someone that gives into and lives according to their “natural” nature. This is someone defined by their desires, their passions, their wants, their needs, their hopes and their dreams.

The Traveler

[GaySaint]

Traveler: Do you believe all gay people fall under the definition of the “natural man” and are thus enemies to God?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Traveler: Do you believe all gay people fall under the definition of the “natural man” and are thus enemies to God?

These are interesting posts and I appreciate your willingness to share your opinion to help everyone understand your feelings and thoughts.

I believe that homosexual tendencies are a part of this world only. They are unique temptations that for the person that has them will have to be constantly fought off throughout that person's life and I don't think they can be completely overcome in this life. I may have a different view than most about this but I think the scripture in Corinthians is referring to overcoming temptation with death and thus everlasting life through Jesus. So, through this life I don't think it is expected to completely put aside all thoughts and compassion but to have control over them. In other words, even if a person gains control over their passions in this life, they are still there, underneath the control. I think it is a bit ridiculous to ask someone with homosexual tendencies to never have a thought in that direction because it will happen over and over again but to control the thought, to not let it become action.

Our earthly body is the only way Satan has control over our spirits. He cannot control your spirit directly. But, if one lets their body gain control over their spirit then Satan has control over that person's spirit secondarily. Everyone's job here on earth is to recognize what is "natural man" and what is spiritual. The sooner one recognizes what is a passion of this earthly body the sooner one's spirit gains control and takes it away from the reins of Satan. When one says, "this is me, this is who I am" when it is not, it is the body, then control has already been given to the deceiver.

If I have the gene for alcoholism and I tell myself, well this is who I am, "God, made me this way" then I give no chance for my spirit to control that genetic predisposition. God may have made your body that way, but that doesn't mean that is who you are. Who you are is something bigger than this little blink of time we spend here on earth.

[Traveler]

Traveler: Do you believe all gay people fall under the definition of the “natural man” and are thus enemies to God?

Depends on how you define “gay”. What must be to seperate gay from not gay?

The Traveler

[GaySaint]

Seminary: Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I agree that appetites and passions need to be controlled, no matter the context. In marriage, I believe the phrase that used to be thrown around quite often was to “bridle your passions.”

But I think it would be wrong to state that a gay person who is in a relationship that is fulfilling emotionally, spiritually, and yes, physically, is incapable of doing so himself. In fact, I would wager that a gay person in a committed relationship (like me) is in the exact same situation as a man who is married.

I don’t think a man in a heterosexual relationship is giving into his “natural man” and becoming an enemy to God simply because he desires his wife. The same can be said about a gay person in a committed relationship.

Of course, the converse is also true. I know many homosexuals, and heterosexuals, who simply don’t bridle their passions, period. I also agree that this is wrong.

I know people like the alcoholism example, and it is, I believe, about as close an example as we can get, but we need to remember that for an alcoholic to be an alcoholic, them must first disobey the word of wisdom by having a drink. I knew long long long before I ever “acted out” that I was gay.

As the topic of this forum suggest, I don't think this makes me in any way "special" or deserving of a "special condition." But does it make the trial (if you believe it is a trial) unique? I think so.

[GaySaint]

Traveler: I would use the word gay to encompass many words: same-sex attraction, same-sex behavior, and a host of other "LDS PC" terms.

I would do so because I feel uncomfortable separating out the attraction from the behavior, because the behavior is rooted in the attraction, and being gay is much more complex than simply the behavior that ensues (for example, a man who is married but attracted to other men - IE: would only have an affair with other men, is gay).

I would be gay whether married to a woman, in a relationship with a man, or celibate.

But for the point of the question, I think I could ask if you think someone who is gay in a relationship with a member of the same-sex, who is capable of and does bridle their passions and is monogamous, faithful, and committed, is still an enemy to God?

[Elgama]

for what its worth I think your gay because its part of your makeup and who you are, my bestfriend is gay, and he would still be gay had we got married (not that is was going to happen as there is one big problem in the way he is gay), we could have loved each other and got along as a companionship, but he would never have found me attractive

[crazypotato]

What is the point of this thread? We are not going to agree and the longer the thread goes on, the more I wonder what exactly is the point of having these forums? I thought they were to chat a bit and discuss gospel topics, give support to each other, give advice, etc. But this thread seems to be more of a subtle debate on church doctrine and I don't see any value of believing members discussing with nonbelievers. It is reminding me of how missionaries are warned to not Bible bash with preachers because they are not looking for truth, not inviting the Holy Ghost, but just trying to convince each other that they are doctrinally correct.

I understand discussing homosexuality to sympathize with people and offer suggestions on how to cope or adding points of doctrine.

So for what it is worth, I firmly believe that SSA is not deserving of more sympathy that any other crappy trial people go through. Once you believe that you are in a special group, you start denying the atonement. If your heart is not in line with God and you don't want it to be, then you are denying the atonement. God can only ease your burdens if you want his will more than your own. Father Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son on an alter and he was willing to do it. We are all asked to deny ourselves and carry a cross. The Lord sacrificed himself for us.

Trust in the Lord, and lean not unto thy own understanding.

[Traveler]

Traveler:

.....

But for the point of the question, I think I could ask if you think someone who is gay in a relationship with a member of the same-sex, who is capable of and does bridle their passions and is monogamous, faithful, and committed, is still an enemy to God?

I thought to answer your question. But the answer to the question is not the answer.

There are many questions that I have concerning this subject but then none of my gay friends are LDS and in most cases I have learned that with this subject emotions play a greater role than information. We are all individuals and I realize that not all that believe a thing - believe it with the same passion and in the same manner. I commend you for your faith in G-d. What concerns me is if we can find common ground in other things or if this is truly the 800 lb gorilla in the room. I think we should go to things we agree before concentrating on our differences – if it is possible.

The Traveler

[Finrock]

Good evening crazypotato. I hope you are doing well! :)

What is the point of this thread? We are not going to agree and the longer the thread goes on, the more I wonder what exactly is the point of having these forums? I thought they were to chat a bit and discuss gospel topics, give support to each other, give advice, etc. But this thread seems to be more of a subtle debate on church doctrine and I don't see any value of believing members discussing with nonbelievers. It is reminding me of how missionaries are warned to not Bible bash with preachers because they are not looking for truth, not inviting the Holy Ghost, but just trying to convince each other that they are doctrinally correct.

The point of this thread is to discuss the question of whether homosexuality is a unique struggle, unlike any of the other struggles known to mankind. In any discussion there are likely to be different views and sometimes even opposing views. This isn't a bad thing.

I've always been curious why certain individuals do not handle opposing views very well and think that because parties aren't agreeing they must be wasting their time. Although finding an agreement is a wonderful goal, not all discussions need to end in agreement in order for them to be fruitful and edifying. So long as all parties involved are intellectually honest, respectful, and charitable towards each other, this translates into a fruitful discussion in my opinion. I don't have to agree in order to gain further understanding of another person's perspective. I don't have to agree in order to more fully appreciate a different point of view.

I see tremendous value in believers discussing with non-believers, so long as we are respectful and charitable towards one another. It is how we begin to build relationships of trust. It is intellectually stimulating and, believe it or not, sometimes it can lead to the Spirit testifying to another of the truth. Again, it is all in how one approaches controversial or sensitive topics. If you come in to the discussion desiring to rip, and tear down, or pass judgment, then likely you are going to reap the benefits of a contentious spirit. But, it doesn't have to be that way.

My sincere advice crazypotato: Don't participate in any discussion you don't feel comfortable participating in. Not everyone shares your point of view about what discussions are a waste of time and what are not. :)

Kind Regards,

Finrock

Edited April 7, 2010 by Finrock
Fixed spelling.

[Dravin]

But for the point of the question, I think I could ask if you think someone who is gay in a relationship with a member of the same-sex, who is capable of and does bridle their passions and is monogamous, faithful, and committed, is still an enemy to God?

To bridle your passions is to restrain them and express them only within the bounds the Lord has set. Sex with somebody of the same sex is outside the bounds the Lord has set. So your hypothetical person is not bridling their passions. If he bridles his passions he does not have sex with people of the same sex. From an LDS Theological view you have set up a self-contradictory description and might as well be asking about four sided triangles, the faithful adulterer or the honest/trustworthy cheat.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Dravin

[crazypotato]

Finrock,

I think you didn't get what I was saying.

I wasn't asking you to defend your thread, just honestly trying to understand the value of "discussing" gospel doctrine in this type of forum. If an investigator, for example, wants to see what our beliefs are, or just someone curious about learning about our beliefs, then we tell them and explain why, they ask questions, etc.

Or some person that is hurting and needs some moral support, advice or pick-me-up, I get that.

But this thread feels like a debate on homosexuality. The church has a stand on it - if people don't agree then that is their right, but what is the point of discussing it?

[crazypotato]

Jacob 7:2-7

And he preached many things which were flattering unto the people; and this he did that he might overthrow the doctrine of Christ.

3 And he labored diligently that he might lead away the hearts of the people, insomuch that he did lead away many hearts; and he knowing that I, Jacob, had faith in Christ who should come, he sought much opportunity that he might come unto me.

4 And he was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people; wherefore, he could use much flattery, and much power of speech, according to the power of the devil.

5 And he had hope to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the many things which I had seen concerning these things; for I truly had seen angels, and they had ministered unto me. And also, I had heard the voice of the Lord speaking unto me in very word, from time to time; wherefore, I could not be shaken.

6 And it came to pass that he came unto me, and on this wise did he speak unto me, saying: Brother Jacob, I have sought much opportunity that I might speak unto you; for I have heard and also know that thou goest about much, preaching that which ye call the gospel, or the doctrine of Christ.

7 And ye have led away much of this people that they pervert the right way of God, and keep not the law of Moses which is the right way; and convert the law of Moses into the worship of a being which ye say shall come many hundred years hence. And now behold, I, Sherem, declare unto you that this is blasphemy; for no man knoweth of such things; for he cannot tell of things to come. And after this manner did Sherem contend against me.

This was a "discussion" between Sherem and Jacob on doctrine. Sherem sought out Jacob to talk to him, and was trying to shake Jacob's testimony of what he knew to be true. I know that God does not approve of same-sex marriage or embrace homosexuality and I am tired of the "respectful" tone and "enlightening" discussion of this thread! This is going beyond discussion and trying to lead people into accepting homosexuality as something that we just don't get or understand the doctrine on, and they are trying to "enlighten" us as to their poor condition.

Edited April 7, 2010 by crazypotato
adding

[GaySaint]

...trying to lead people into accepting homosexuality as something that we just don't get or understand the doctrine on, and they are trying to "enlighten" us as to their poor condition.

Since I feel this was directly addressing my presence here on these forums and in this discussion, I think I should respond.

First and foremost I think I should say that I am not here to change anyone’s mind on church doctrine. I’m here because I’ve seen people on these forums attacked for what they believe – particularly those who are LDS living in a “non-traditional” family (there was a daughter of two gay dads that actually spawned my desire to sign up. I was appalled at the lack of support she got as a member of the church here, and instead was attacked because of her family dynamics, which she could not control). In addition, those who are struggling with same-gender attraction and trying to remain faithful to the church deserve respect and this type of dialog.

Most members of the church who do not know a gay person do not know the struggle that someone who is gay and LDS experiences. I think it is fair to discuss that struggle to promote understanding for THOSE MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH. They need support from faithful members who understand. I think it is sad that the advocates they have here happen to be me and a few others who are EXCOMMUNICATED. Why won't a faithful member of the church stand up for them in understanding, love, and compassion as well?

A lot of times, members of the church will say things like “It's ok because in the next life you’ll be straight,” or “the attraction isn’t a sin, only acting on it is.” While these words might sound comforting to straight members of the church, to those struggling with same-sex attraction these phrases sound condescending. If you don’t know why, then you don’t understand what these members are feeling and going through.

That is why it is important to have this discussion.

[Elgama]

err I'm not excommunicated, gay - and if I could attend church (long story) would hold a recommend.

Someone who is gay does face a unqiue challenge far tougher than many, we have a commandment to marry and bear children it was the first commandment, yet in order to fullfill that you have to deny a massive part of who you are, its like asking me not to believe in God

[Elgama]

oh and my Mum had a female partner in my teens if the girl you spoke about needs support direct her my way. And my kids are left in our will to a gay man because he is the only person in my circle of family and friends I trust to allow them to be LDS and who is fit young and healthy.

[Traveler]

I thought to post a little of my experience. I joined the army shortly after my 17th birthday and finished high school in the army. I joined because during the Vietnam era only 2 missionaries were allowed to deferments from the draft to serve missions per ward. Because of an August birthday and a very low draft number this was one of my few chances to serve a mission. I was small at the time (though still growing) and weighed 110 lbs and was about 5 foot six inches tall. I looked 13 but was raised with the ability to defend myself. My encounters with homosexuals during this time of my life were exclusively with predators and often led to violence though I did everything I could to avoid it because often I was also outnumbered. I learned very quickly to identify and for the most part avoid predators. By time I served a mission I would not hesitate physically hurting someone that made what I felt were improper advances.

My mission companion and I went to teach a young man our same age attending a small private college in Seattle Washington and I quickly recognized that he was homosexual and did not want to teach this person the gospel. I will not go into all the details but my companion and I exchanged harsh words and though I was present I left the teaching to my companion and expressed my concerns directly to our prospect. He was baptized and I tried to be honest and supportive but from a distance.

Fast forward in time and two events would greatly impact my life. The first was the death of a high school friend due to AIDS. I did not know he was homosexual until he was dying. Besides homosexuality there were many “good” things this young man had tried to do during his life but death was hard – for both me and him. This event prompted me to learn everything I could about AIDS and what I found was a lot of half truths and falsehoods due to political correctness.

The second event occurred 20 years after the young man I spoke of previously was baptized. I met him at a regional scouting event. He was still LDS, a very different person and we spent several hours conversing. In the time since his baptism he had walked a very difficult road in his conversion but was also cured of homosexuality. I could see the difference in him and it was dramatic. Some may scoff and say such things cannot and do not happen but when you witness something for yourself – you know different.

Two things I believe and this goes far beyond homosexuality – to anyone facing “impossible” challenges. The first is that no one should ever give up the effort to achieve a worthwhile life goal – never, regardless of the difficulty. They should never believe they are done and cannot do what they have failed to do so many times before. The second is that no one should ever give up the hope and the support that someone else facing difficulties can (with G-d) accomplish the impossible. And if I can add one last caveat – someday we will all face an impossible difficulty – and when we do our second greatest asset (next to G-d) will be the support (that we can) from someone that unconditionally loves us.

The Traveler

Edited April 7, 2010 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminary: Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I agree that appetites and passions need to be controlled, no matter the context. In marriage, I believe the phrase that used to be thrown around quite often was to “bridle your passions.”

But I think it would be wrong to state that a gay person who is in a relationship that is fulfilling emotionally, spiritually, and yes, physically, is incapable of doing so himself. In fact, I would wager that a gay person in a committed relationship (like me) is in the exact same situation as a man who is married.

I don’t think a man in a heterosexual relationship is giving into his “natural man” and becoming an enemy to God simply because he desires his wife. The same can be said about a gay person in a committed relationship.

Of course, the converse is also true. I know many homosexuals, and heterosexuals, who simply don’t bridle their passions, period. I also agree that this is wrong.

I know people like the alcoholism example, and it is, I believe, about as close an example as we can get, but we need to remember that for an alcoholic to be an alcoholic, them must first disobey the word of wisdom by having a drink. I knew long long long before I ever “acted out” that I was gay.

As the topic of this forum suggest, I don't think this makes me in any way "special" or deserving of a "special condition." But does it make the trial (if you believe it is a trial) unique? I think so.

Thanks for your reply. I think the trial is unique and one that I will never fully understand in this life.

Can I ask you, Do you think a gay man's attraction to another man comes from the body or from the spirit?

.... if you don't like the alcohol example I can give you one that I am more familiar with, I have an attraction to food. I struggle constantly with a desire to eat food and then gain weight. It is partly genetic, many people in my family are overweight and partly lifestyle because I grew up with large meals and certain foods. I've made a big effort to separate myself from that lifestyle though. And just like Elder Holland said in conference this week, with any addiction the first thing is to run! Run away from all those that support that kind of lifestyle, run away from those that have the same problem. The worst person an alcoholic could marry is another alcoholic if their goal is to stop the behavior. I married a physician who constantly reminds me of my previous bad choices in food and so I do better with that physical desire. "Struggle" comes from the spirit wanting something different than the body. One way to know that it is not from the spirit is that sense of struggle or question or of feeling not right when doing that particular thing. Eating right now is no longer a struggle and it feels right even though if you asked me 15 years ago I would have said I couldn't do it, it's not who I am.

[crazypotato]

20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.

21 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.

22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.

23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?

24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.

25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.

Please, stop murmuring exceedingly because of your afflictions. It does not help you or anyone else. Was the Lord constantly apologizing to Laman and Lemuel for their afflictions and telling them that they were right, it wasn't fair? Or did he still expect them to do what he commanded?

The homosexual agenda has been pushed on our society in the name of tolerance, compassion, love, and not being a homophobe. Your life is not exceptionally more difficult than others. Look to the scriptures and the prophets for direction. Compassion doesn't equal tolerance, acceptance, and special circumstances. The Lord chastised Lehi and Sariah for murmuring against their afflictions.

Edited April 7, 2010 by crazypotato
grammar

[Seminarysnoozer]

err I'm not excommunicated, gay - and if I could attend church (long story) would hold a recommend.

Someone who is gay does face a unqiue challenge far tougher than many, we have a commandment to marry and bear children it was the first commandment, yet in order to fullfill that you have to deny a massive part of who you are, its like asking me not to believe in God

I think you said something here that hits the point that most (again, I think) who are not SSA have a hard time understanding and that is this holding onto this idea that SSA is a "massive part of who you are."

That is where the challenge is and that is where there is a difference in the beliefs I think the most. Not so much of what chastity is etc. but understanding that the SSA is NOT a massive part of who you are. It is a part that comes from the body, the corrupted, fallen body. Your spirit is who you are not the body. The spirit is many times more powerful and more substantial than any contribution from the passions of the body ... if you let it be. That is the whole message of christianity, to overcome this world and everything in it that is controlled by Satan. We can overcome this body, this world through Jesus.

Marriage between a man and a woman is divine, it is not just a passion of the body, it comes from the spirit and it comes from God. And therefore those controlled attractions, when bridled are good if they lead to the divine. If they lead away from the divine aspects of it they are bad, like going to a strip club, or pornography etc.

There is nothing about SSA that is divinely appointed. It is purely from the body, which is corrupted and fallen and will not be part of our perfected, immortal and resurrected state. There is no need to work on a house made of straw. Satan loves to take things that are somewhat truthful and twist them just a little.

My belief is that people that struggle with SSA think that attraction comes from their spirit. Am I wrong? I believe SSA comes only from the body, not the spirit. In fact I would even go so far to testify to you and all those that think it comes from the spirit that that is wrong. Changing that belief would be the first step in letting all your brothers and sisters help you with the problem. The wall is created by not letting go of that belief that the attraction comes from the spirit and not the body, that the attraction is not really who you are, it is the body but not the spirit.

The test we find ourselves in is created by having something pulling us in different directions and most of the time it is the body pulling away from the spirit, you can say that about almost any challenge in life. ... even for the apostles falling asleep when Jesus needed them the most.