Same Gender Attractions: A "Special" Adversity?

[GaySaint]

Willow: When I came out, my mom told me her greatest fear was that I would turn my back on my family – then she disowned me. After a few months, I got a call, and she told me that although she didn’t agree with what I was doing, her family was important to her.

We compromised on setting some ground rules. I am not allowed to show any affection toward my partner when I am at her house. While I don’t necessarily agree with or like those rules, and my partner finds them offensive, we understand the reasons why my family isn’t comfortable with our relationship. We have grown to respect that, and they have grown to respect us.

My mom has told me many times how much she likes my partner. She sees him as a son of God, and after getting to know him understands why I would have selected him to spend my life with. She still doesn’t agree with what she views as sin, but her respect for him as a person has allowed us to keep familial bonds and respect in existence. She provides a welcoming environment to the best of her ability, within the bounds she feels are in keeping with the gospel. If you’d like, I’m sure she would be willing to discuss how she does that with you (although I’m sure she’d tell you she doesn’t do it very well, haha. But when I see her make an effort, I feel very blessed to have her as a mother).

You cannot afford to lose your daughter, especially if you think she is doing something wrong and will need your help if she ever wants to change her choices. While I understand where you are coming from (because my mom is the same way), there is a level of respect you can show without becoming a hypocrite, or condoning what you believe to be a sinful relationship.

While I know none of us our perfect like Christ, he is perhaps your best example here. He was not afraid to be seen with or consort with sinners. He did not support sin, but he was able to love and respect them as his brothers and sisters and as children of God while gently teaching and prodding about his great love for them, and their great potential.

Do you see this other woman your daughter is involved with this way? You must see your daughter as an amazing woman, so what is it about this other woman that she finds so attractive? Can you find and appreciate these points as gifts from a loving Father in Heaven? If not, then are you seeing her as a daughter of God (which she is)? If not, then are you sure you aren’t being a hypocrite already?

[Bini]

I was a teen when bisexuality was absolutely cool. Especially among teenage girls. If you asked any of them, they'd tell you that they were bisexual. I would say that the majority of these girls were following a growing trend of proclaiming alternative sexualities despite being heterosexual. Kissing another girl on the lips doesn't confirm you a lesbian or bisexual, seriously. [Rolls eyes here] These kinds of situations are people who choose to go against their instinctive nature and live a bisexual or gay lifestyle. For people that aren't familiar with homosexual tendencies and lifestyles, it's easy for them to clump "wannabes" that "choose" to be gay, with those that are gay and not by choice.

[Elphaba]

To those who have insisted people who are gay can change their orientation, I present the following quotes, from the interview of Elders Oaks and Wickman, that are the Church's official position on the subject:

ELDER OAKS: Perhaps there is an inclination or susceptibility to such feelings that is a reality for some and not a reality for others.

　

ELDER WICKMAN: Case studies I believe have shown that in some cases there has been progress made in helping someone to change that orientation; in other cases not.

These comments, which are the official position of the Church, acknowledge it is possible some people are permanently gay. Additionally, I think the following quote is extremely important, because the Church officially acknowledges there are those who are permanently gay--so much so that they should not marry:

ELDER OAKS: We are sometimes asked about whether marriage is a remedy for these feelings that we have been talking about. President Hinckley, faced with the fact that apparently some had believed it to be a remedy, and perhaps that some Church leaders had even counseled marriage as the remedy for these feelings, made this statement: “Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices.” To me that means that we are not going to stand still to put at risk daughters of God who would enter into such marriages under false pretenses or under a cloud unknown to them. Persons who have this kind of challenge that they cannot control could not enter marriage in good faith.

All the "methods" used to change a person whose orientation is truly gay are never going to work, and denying this only makes them feel more isolated from society.

Additionally, it is wrong to claim they “chose” to be homosexual. Given the violence, rejection, and prejudice they face, why in the world would they do that?

　

Elphaba

　

Edited April 13, 2010 by Elphaba
Fixed a typo

[WillowTheWhisp]

Hmm... Last year of High School. Difficulty with church. Scared of the future. Very intelligent.

Sounds like she's got a lot on her plate. How're her friendships in the church?

I can tell you that, within the church, being someone without friends in the YW or YM program brings a whole host of problems. When I was Young Men's President, I made a point of interviewing all the kids one on one to see how things were going. I needed them to trust me and they let me know a lot of things. Feelings of alienation or frustration were rampant among those less popular. It often leads to less activity.

Have you considered that there may be things she isn't comfortable telling you? Have you tried talking to the Young Women's leader and see what she thinks?

It's possible she needs encouragement. Believe it or not, some people think it's their parents jobs to be encouraging. When a random stranger compliments you, it can make your day. Your family? Not so much.

We have a very small ward with only a few Young Women and she does have one particular friend but a few weeks ago she was the only one who didn't know that YW wasn't on one week as they had all gone to a school concert. She was very upset to be the ony one not told. I made a post on here about it at the time. She has not been back to church since then. We don't have a YW leader as such. We've been set up as a basic unit now with the RS Presidency also being responsible for YW and Primary.

Gwen, thank you for sharing about your brother and your sister. You spoke mostly about how your brother responds and it seems that he is actually very supportive of your beliefs and full of regrets about his own choices. I could feel positive about someone like that because it seems he regrets his tattoos by covering them up and telling your kids not to do the same, and regrets being addicted to tobacco and tells your kids not to get hooked. In other words he isn't asking you to approve of his lifestyle and he is showing them that he doesn't really approve of it either. That is very different to a scenario where he could be asking you to approve of his tattoos and smoking and be offering cigarettes to your kids and offering to take them down to the tattoo parlour for their birthday present. Can you see how I could accept the former but be appalled by the latter?

As far as your (and your childrems) relationship with your sister I'm not sure how I would feel if it were my sister rather than my daughter as I am an only child myself. All I know is how much I love my daughter and do not want to be separated from her in eternity. I don't want her to miss out on what she could have in the eternal worlds by making wrong choices here and now. It's because I love her so much that the thought of losing her breaks my heart.

You cannot afford to lose your daughter, especially if you think she is doing something wrong and will need your help if she ever wants to change her choices. While I understand where you are coming from (because my mom is the same way), there is a level of respect you can show without becoming a hypocrite, or condoning what you believe to be a sinful relationship.

While I know none of us our perfect like Christ, he is perhaps your best example here. He was not afraid to be seen with or consort with sinners. He did not support sin, but he was able to love and respect them as his brothers and sisters and as children of God while gently teaching and prodding about his great love for them, and their great potential.

Do you see this other woman your daughter is involved with this way? You must see your daughter as an amazing woman, so what is it about this other woman that she finds so attractive? Can you find and appreciate these points as gifts from a loving Father in Heaven? If not, then are you seeing her as a daughter of God (which she is)? If not, then are you sure you aren’t being a hypocrite already?

I don't want to lose her which is why the choice she has made upsets me so much because it means that I have to be separated from her because she can never be sealed to us for eternity. I cannot condone the relationship because it is what will keep us apart. Yes it is possible to love someone without approving of their action and lifestyle. I love my daughter to bits. If I did not love her I would not care who she chooses to spend her time with. I don't know if this makes me a hypocrite in your eyes. We are all children of God but it is he who has said that only those who keep his commandments can enter into his kingdom. How can it be hypocritical of me to believe that? Wouldn't it be wrong of me to pretend that my daughter and her girlfriend will be welcome in the Celestial Kingdom when the scriptures tell me they will not? Are you saying that if I cannot see why my daughter loves another girl then I am not seeing that girl as a child of God? I could see why she could be good friends with this girl and I would be happy for them to be friends, but not to be lovers.

How do you reconcile being LDS with having a gay relationship? That is something I cannot understand.

Additionally, it is wrong to claim they “chose” to be homosexual. Given the violence, rejection, and prejudice they face, why in the world would they do that?

　

Elphaba

　

But in my daughter's case this is a choice because she says she is bi-sexual so she could choose to ignore her feelings for girls and just accept her feelings for boys but she has chosen not to do that despite knowing that it means walking away from the church and all she has been brought up with.

Edited April 12, 2010 by WillowTheWhisp

[GaySaint]

Willow: I don’t think you are a hypocrite. I think you are trying to understand, and trying to love, and trying to do what you think is best – and who wouldn’t applaud that. I’m very sorry for the trouble you have been through with this. My mom and I have had many conversations about the whys, about the church, about how it will never be ok with her…

Start with the friendship thing. If you can understand how your daughter could be friends with this girl, then that means you have recognized something positive about her. Stop looking at her as the girl who is dragging your daughter to the depths of Hell (she isn’t. Your daughter is making her own choices), and learn to love her the same way you love your daughter (you said you love her to pieces even though she isn’t doing what you wish she would. If you can look at this other woman the same way, I guarantee your relationship with your daughter will improve, and you will start to be able to have meaningful conversations with her). This will require no compromising of beliefs, no change in attitude, only that you follow one of the greatest commandments: That you love your neighbor.

I can tell you that you won’t get through to your daughter with threats or fear, or guilt. Only love. You cannot use her father against her, you cannot use the church against her, and you cannot use God against her. Her father, the church, and God must work FOR her. Trust me when I say you don’t want her to see any of these things as her enemy… and no doubt she already feels that they are to a degree (prop 8 made the entire gay community feel like the church was out to get us).

I’ll gladly discuss with you how I have dealt, and help you understand what your daughter is going through, if you’d like. I can even tell you how I resolved my homosexuality with the church (and how I would if I were to remain faithful to the church), but that is a discussion for PM, not for this forum (although another topic on this subject could be started if you wish. There are a lot of us on this board comprising of all different decisions that could help).

Also, when I first came out I also told my parents I was bisexual. The reasons were simple: 1, it allowed me to address the issue without robbing them of all hope of me getting married. 2, I was 22 years old, and as a 22 year old man a dead tree on the side of the road could turn me on if my hormones were raging, lol. 3, I WANTED it to be true. But it didn’t take me long to understand that I wasn’t bisexual. The second I discovered what love really was, and how it made me feel to be in love with another person, put all my past relationships with women to shame – and suddenly I understood why I could never make those relationships work.

If your daughter is at this point, she is no doubt scared. Driving a wedge between you and her at this point would be the opposite of what she needs. You might not feel ready to do ANYTHING to keep her in your life, but at least do everything you can without compromising your standards.

The church teaches that sex is the sin… I asked a high ranking member of the church (I’ll keep that ranking and name out of this post to protect the innocent, lol) whether or not he thought a gay person should be able to date, kiss, hold hands, etc. After all, none of this is against the law of chasity for unmarried straight couples. He told me the church doesn’t really have an answer for that one now, but that his feeling is that such behavior is punished because of societal prejudice, not because of some unequal application of the law of chastity. I’d be happy to fill you in on the details if it will make you feel more comfortable having your daughter and the person she loves in your home.

Sex is the sin, but their relationship is much much more than that. Only the sex is sinful. The rest may be weird to you, but it is important to them. Hopefully you’ll be able to come to a point where you can recognize the relationship without recognizing the sex. That would be the most beneficial place for you and your daughter, and would not require any compromises in regards to church policy.

I hope that helps. Anyone have anything to add, or disagree? :)

Edited April 12, 2010 by GaySaint

[Gwen]

Gwen, thank you for sharing about your brother and your sister. You spoke mostly about how your brother responds and it seems that he is actually very supportive of your beliefs and full of regrets about his own choices. I could feel positive about someone like that because it seems he regrets his tattoos by covering them up and telling your kids not to do the same, and regrets being addicted to tobacco and tells your kids not to get hooked. In other words he isn't asking you to approve of his lifestyle and he is showing them that he doesn't really approve of it either. That is very different to a scenario where he could be asking you to approve of his tattoos and smoking and be offering cigarettes to your kids and offering to take them down to the tattoo parlour for their birthday present. Can you see how I could accept the former but be appalled by the latter?

As far as your (and your childrems) relationship with your sister I'm not sure how I would feel if it were my sister rather than my daughter as I am an only child myself. All I know is how much I love my daughter and do not want to be separated from her in eternity. I don't want her to miss out on what she could have in the eternal worlds by making wrong choices here and now. It's because I love her so much that the thought of losing her breaks my heart.

i spoke more of my brother because i am closer to him and so i've had more detailed conversations with him. my sister had never come as far in the church (she went inactive as a yw) and had already been alienated by the members of the family that would disapprove of her relationship. i also don't want to cause any confusion. my brother is not ashamed of who he is and though he may have regrets i think for the most part he is comfortable with who he is. when my kids are not around he is more open about his lifestyle. we have talked about many of his tattoos. for awhile he had a hole in his ear that you could put a pencil in (he still teases me about the expression on my face when he was holding my 10 month old and my child stuck his finger though my brother's earlobe. lol) and he designed a tattoo for my mom and took her to get it for a mother's day gift. so he's not hiding who he is. he is reserved in what and how he shares that with my children out of respect for my beliefs.

as you can tell from the paragraph above my mother also is no longer living the life style she raised me to have. that's very hard for me. when i got married almost 10 yrs ago my mother and father were still married, my brother was going on a mission, my sister had a boyfriend, another brother lived in ut and was very active in the church.... i had a very "normal" lds family. since then i've become the odd man out. my parents divorced, my brother and sis i've already shared, out of 8 of us (me, my siblings, and my parents) there are only 3 now active in the church. i could go on but my point is sometimes i feel we are now as far as possible from an "normal" lds family. it was very hard for me. all the ppl that i loved the most in the world, with complete knowledge, were choosing to leave me. they were choosing a life that would cause them to not be with me in the eternities. did they not care as much as i did? then i realized something. this isn't about me. the church is my choice. they have to make theirs. i'm not their judge. my sister is happier and seems to be the healthiest i've ever seen her with her girlfriend than she ever was with the men she was with. they are living what they believe to be their authentic self. that brings them joy. it's been very hard for me to understand. "wickedness never was happiness"... so how can they be happier now than they have ever been? none of it made since. yes i see the trials they bring upon themselves with their lifestyle. but i have my trials too. i had to get to a point where i stopped thinking about me, stopped blaming them for "leaving me". i have to leave their fate in god's hands. i don't know how it will all work out. all i can do is say, i'm going to love my family, do the best i can and let god worry about the rest. i can't believe i will never see them again. i trust that god is more merciful than that.

willow, it sounds like a very difficult situation you are in. no one on this forum can really understand it. we've will never be exactly where you are and we don't know all the details. i am not saying that my approach is right for you. i do hope you will listen to all the perspectives you have access to here. you really have a great opportunity to hear some different points of view. use that to ponder your daughter, what situation would be workable for you, pray about it, and open the lines of communication with your daughter. i truly believe that good communication here can help both of you heal and come to terms with things in a way that nothing else will.

[Elgama]

I think you can accept someone for who they are without condoning what they do. I have a gay best friend and I would allow his partner to stay if they came to stay, just the same way if my Father or Mother bring a partner I accept that is their life, and thats how I explain it to my children, because we are Latter Day Saints we know what Heavenly Father wants us to do, but not everyone understands that. they know my views and they know my beliefs, and quite frankly don't approve of me being LDS, they have far more bother accepting that. My cousin is a lesbian and they want a baby - I am excited for them, you currently have a decision to make about what you are going to do if your daughter marries her girlfriend, they move in together or even have a child together.

I know how I felt when my parents didn't approve of my husband and didn't make him welcome in our family, and I know how much I am grateful his parents took me for who I was. I was allowed to stay in their home naturally on the sofa:)

I am going to be blunt, having had homosexual family and friends a parent who won't love them unconditionally not only pushes them away but seems to create the most horrendous depression, nearly every homosexual person I know at the stage your daughter is at has contemplated suicide over the matter, now I know its just personal experience but no way would I put my child through what I have seen others go through - I know with my best friend he has a lot of anger and pain directed at his Mother because he cannot be himself, and whenever he goes down, is angry about her, thats when I keep an eye on him. It can be a terrible tightrope we walk as LDS parents, I don't want my children to drink, but if they do get drunk would much rather they phoned me to come and get them, than drive home drunk, get in a car with someone who is drunk or slept in an alleyway where they make themselves vulnerable. I don't want my children to have sex outside marriage, but if they do would rather they took precautions etc

I don't think schools promoting gay rights is necessarily a bad thing if it reduces the pain and bullying, its not going to stop those teens being Gay, might stop them committing suicide or entering a deep depression though

[Elgama]

[

But in my daughter's case this is a choice because she says she is bi-sexual so she could choose to ignore her feelings for girls and just accept her feelings for boys but she has chosen not to do that despite knowing that it means walking away from the church and all she has been brought up with.

its possible she is saying bisexual because its less scary to her than admitting she is gay, still implies its something she has power over. Also she is protecting you by giving you hope

I suspect I maybe bisexual not really sure but I find women as equally as attractive as men, as a result I married a man because it fitted in with what I needed to do.

[Elphaba]

But in my daughter's case this is a choice because she says she is bi-sexual so she could choose to ignore her feelings for girls and just accept her feelings for boys but she has chosen not to do that despite knowing that it means walking away from the church and all she has been brought up with.

I agree, and I told finrock the same in my post just previous to the one you responded to. I explained that when he is talking about people who are homosexual being able to change, he is actually talking about people who are bi-sexual, because a person who is truly homosexual will never be attracted to the opposite sex. However, many people who are bi-sexual can make a choice to live either a heterosexual or a homosexual life, and stick with that.

I'm so sorry your daughter's choice has caused you such heartache.

Elphaba

[GaySaint]

Elgama: I would even take your suicide thought a big further, having been there.

I would say that every LDS gay person I have ever met to date has come to the decision of suicide vs. acceptance. Acceptance leads to many more choices (not necessarily to the behavior. I know many people who have accepted that they are gay, and gone on to marry, or to live in celibacy).

Unfortunately, many cannot take that leap into acceptance. They believe they must be at war with either their gay side, or their LDS side.

Too many who don't see acceptance as possible choose suicide as a means to end the war within themselves. We must be very careful that we don't push gay youth toward that option.

[Elgama]

Too many who don't see acceptance as possible choose suicide as a means to end the war within themselves. We must be very careful that we don't push gay youth toward that option.

I entirely agree with this and its not just LDS gay teens at all I don't know any who are open, I have a couple I do wonder about. Its gay teens in general, I have to say i have experienced some terrifying and awful things in my life but nothing I have ever gone through compares to what many gay teens go through its appalling, I am hoping if any of mine go through it, I can help it be a lot less painful. And even as a Latter Day Saint I can't help but feel there are much worse things my teen can be, I would be proud to have a man like my friend as a son, and thats whats so sad about him and his Mother's relationship its very obvious she adores him and is ridiculously proud of him.

I think it is a special adversity because I can think of nothing more awful to go through than being a gay teenager, and it continues through until adulthood.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I think you can accept someone for who they are without condoning what they do. I have a gay best friend and I would allow his partner to stay if they came to stay, just the same way if my Father or Mother bring a partner I accept that is their life, and thats how I explain it to my children, because we are Latter Day Saints we know what Heavenly Father wants us to do, but not everyone understands that.

That is the distinction for me. I can accept, but it will always be with great sorrow. I could no more condone my daughter sharing her bedroom with her girlfriend than I could condone my other daughter sharing her bedroom with her boyfriend. It may be acceptable elsewhere in the world and to most of their non-LDS friends but it is not acceptable in this house for anyone who is not married to sleep together. I cannot and will not compromise my standards on that. I believe I would be under condemnation by Heavenly Father for condoning sin if I did so.

I still cannot understand how someone can be LDS and live in a homosexual relationship. Surely the church teaches that that is not acceptable. I'm really puzzled by this. I know we have had missionaries teaching people who have problems living gospel standards and until they do they cannot be baptised. Heavenly Father does not make compromises.

There are too many other things to think about here at the moment and I'm beginning to feel that some people are asking me to water down the Gospel or to adjust and tweak things to encompass something which the Scriptures and Church leaders have said is not acceptable. Surely I would be letting both of my daughters down if I did not maintain my own standards?

If my daughter ultimately chooses to walk away from possible eternal Celestial glory and exhaltation in favour of some alternative earthy pleasure here and now then that will be her choice but I can never pretend to be happy about that. If I accept it I will always grieve for her and what she has chosen to throw away.

[Elgama]

What you decide to do is up to you, what I think people in this thread are trying to do is give you an insight into the very things you say you cannot understand - you think your turmoil is bad, but in some ways what you are asking your daughter to do is similar, its like someone saying to you you chose your religion you can just drop it, think about the emotions you are having about having to change something integral to you. Your daughter is not only going through that but she has to fight against two things that make her feel like that everything you feel right now is doubled in your daughter, on top of that she is not an adult she is a teenager. If you don't find a way to accept her the fact is you run the risk of losing her for both mortality and eternity either through an estrangement or suicide - neither of which is going to get her back to the Heavenly Father with you.

Would you let her girlfriend stay on the sofa? what are you ground rules for boyfriends? can you sit down with your daughter and give her a significant other rules - explain to her she needs to obey boyfriend rules for her girlfriend? I just feel right now you are letting your feelings about her being Lesbian ruin the relationship you do have which can't be profiting either of you. are you proud of her otherwise does she know that? Push the church on her right now and she hates church etc No one is asking you to do anything with your standards if you can't then don't do it

Edited April 13, 2010 by Elgama

[Gwen]

I could no more condone my daughter sharing her bedroom with her girlfriend than I could condone my other daughter sharing her bedroom with her boyfriend. It may be acceptable elsewhere in the world and to most of their non-LDS friends but it is not acceptable in this house for anyone who is not married to sleep together. I cannot and will not compromise my standards on that. I believe I would be under condemnation by Heavenly Father for condoning sin if I did so.

i agree with this completely. if you would not allow it for a boyfriend then it is not acceptable with a girlfriend. that is what i tried to say in the beginning that i may have failed in communicating. as hard as it is, ask yourself, "if this was a boy would i allow this?" if the answer is yes then try to allow the girlfriend to be there. if it's no then the answer is no.

it's not unreasonable to say the house rules never changed. that is a completely different issue than if you accept your daughter as she is.

[GaySaint]

I completely agree with Willow, Gwen, and Elgama on this issue. If she were dating a boy, then there would be specific rules she would still have to obey. Those rules should not go out the window. If she and the boy were "sinning," would you discourage her from bringing him over to the house for family dinner? Or would you accept that while your daughter was making a bad choice, that boy might be part of the family for a long long time?

Since the sin is the sin, regardless of gender, it would be appropriate for you to treat the issue "gender neutral."

My parents to not allow my partner to spend the night in their home in the same room as me. We've never even asked whether or not they would let him sleep on the couch, but if the answer was no I would still be ok with that, because I understand that their standards in their home would prohibit that regardless of the gender of my partner (meaning I doubt my mom would even let a girlfriend stay the night on the couch).

Willow, do you feel it is compromising or watering down the gospel to treat this girl the same as you would treat her if she were a boy? Do you feel you have to be harsher because she is a lesbian?

I think answering that question will help us know where you are at a little better... and I certainly hope you will not be judged however you answer that question here. We just hope that we can help you understand why viewing the situation differently because she is a girl will do nothing more than further the unacceptance your daughter is already feeling.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Elgama: I would even take your suicide thought a big further, having been there.

I would say that every LDS gay person I have ever met to date has come to the decision of suicide vs. acceptance. Acceptance leads to many more choices (not necessarily to the behavior. I know many people who have accepted that they are gay, and gone on to marry, or to live in celibacy).

Unfortunately, many cannot take that leap into acceptance. They believe they must be at war with either their gay side, or their LDS side.

Too many who don't see acceptance as possible choose suicide as a means to end the war within themselves. We must be very careful that we don't push gay youth toward that option.

The only person who overcame that battle between the natural man and the spirit is Christ but fought it still the same (40 days of fasting and direct temptations from Satan). The rest of us have to continue with that battle until the day we die, then we enter into HIS peace. We can at times feel that peace and experience it, but then the battle still continues.

I think it is unreasonable to assume we are as strong as Christ and can win Satan and Satan's influence on the body permanently while we remain in this existence. Because then we let down our guard. Satan wants us to let down our guard and give up, then he wins.

Eph. 2: 14-15, 17

"14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

The Law of Commandments contain ordinance that are directly tied into sacrifice. Another word for sacrifice is 'peace offerings'. The opposite of war is peace. This is why sacrifice is an important part of our gospel. If one wants to achieve peace one has to sacrifice many desires of this world. Including many desires that come from our bodies. ... and that is how the 'partition between us' is broken down. Not, by just accepting the desires of the body.

[crazypotato]

WillowtheWhisp,

Please be careful when asking for advice that you will still listen to your bishop over anonymous forum users. It sounds like you will, but I just worry. There are so many good, kind, righteous people that have accepted homosexuality as something inborn that cannot be changed, that are on these forums. I strongly believe that our prophets are not stupid. Just because they don't particularly struggle with SSA does not mean that they are not enlightened enough about homosexuality. The watered down explanations of the gospel, mixed with reasons why homosexuality is inborn, mixed with advice to not always listen to your bishop, mixed with advice that people have had personal revelations that for themselves go against what our prophets have said about homosexuality, mixed with the emphasis on loving and having compassion for homosexuals are all ways that Satan deceives good people. These are all ideas that have been introduced into this thread and I am absolutely saddened by them.

I remember reading a talk in the Ensign that said that the majority of us humans, if we really had a way to have a full knowledge of Christ, would no longer have any desire to sin. This tells me that most of us sinners are just don't know Christ well enough yet, that we are not bad people, but that we are lacking full knowledge.

Your daughter is young and being deceived. Of course you need to love her and not accept her sinful behavior as okay. Keep talking to your bishop and going to the temple for inspiration and loving your daughter. You sound like a great mom!

[hordak]

WillowtheWhisp,

Please be careful when asking for advice that you will still listen to your bishop over anonymous forum users. It sounds like you will, but I just worry. There are so many good, kind, righteous people that have accepted homosexuality as something inborn that cannot be changed, that are on these forums. I strongly believe that our prophets are not stupid. Just because they don't particularly struggle with SSA does not mean that they are not enlightened enough about homosexuality. The watered down explanations of the gospel, mixed with reasons why homosexuality is inborn, mixed with advice to not always listen to your bishop, mixed with advice that people have had personal revelations that for themselves go against what our prophets have said about homosexuality, mixed with the emphasis on loving and having compassion for homosexuals are all ways that Satan deceives good people. These are all ideas that have been introduced into this thread and I am absolutely saddened by them.

I remember reading a talk in the Ensign that said that the majority of us humans, if we really had a way to have a full knowledge of Christ, would no longer have any desire to sin. This tells me that most of us sinners are just don't know Christ well enough yet, that we are not bad people, but that we are lacking full knowledge.

Your daughter is young and being deceived. Of course you need to love her and not accept her sinful behavior as okay. Keep talking to your bishop and going to the temple for inspiration and loving your daughter. You sound like a great mom!

What have our prophets said?

From the Newsroom. The official church resource for, news media, opinion leaders and the public.

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: You’re saying the Church doesn’t necessarily have a position on ‘nurture or nature’

ELDER OAKS: That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.

[GaySaint]

Crazypotato: I find it very disheartening that you would say that homosexuals should not be treated with love and compassion. I find it disheartening that you would think the only way for a member of the church to do that is to accept that homosexuality is not a sin.

You are probably correct that I should not discuss on these forums what I feel I have received personal revelation about. It is, after all, personal. But sometimes I am asked WHY I am the way I am, and that is the only way to answer honestly that question. I have never asked someone to believe that such a revelation applies to anyone other than myself. If you believe it is going against what the prophet said, that is fine. I have never asked anyone to believe otherwise.

As to the other areas your post addresses, fine. I will not speak to you about those things. I will let the prophets, and official church material do so. These quotes address the issues of change, and love, and compassion, and whether or not we have all the revelation we need on this subject to effectively understand it:

“We encourage Church leaders and members to reach out with love and understanding to those struggling with these issues [of same gender attraction]. Many will respond to Christlike love . . .”

~November 14, 1991 Letter from the First Presidency

“All should understand that persons (and their family members) struggling with the burden of same-sex attraction are in special need of the love and encouragement that is a clear responsibility of Church members, who have signified by covenant their willingness ‘to bear one another’s burdens’ (Mosiah 18:8) and so ‘fulfill the law of Christ’ (Gal. 6:2).”

Elder Dallin H. Oaks, “Same Gender Attraction,” Ensign (October 1995).

I think this answers the question as to whether same gender attraction is a special adversity.

“There’s no denial that one’s gender orientation is certainly a core characteristic of any person.”

Elder Lance Wickman, 2007 interview with Church Public Affairs,

Same-Gender Attraction - LDS Newsroom

“The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.”

Elder Dallin H. Oaks, Public Affairs – Same Gender Attraction, (2007)

Same-Gender Attraction - LDS Newsroom.

“f you are a parent of one with same-gender attraction, don’t assume you are the reason for those feelings. No one, including the one struggling, should try to shoulder blame. Nor should anyone place blame on another—including God. Walk by faith, and help your loved one deal the best he or she can with this challenge.”

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, “Helping Those Who Struggle with Same-Gender Attraction,”

Ensign (October 2007).

“Some people with same-gender attraction have felt rejected because members of the Church did not always show love. No member of the Church should ever be intolerant. As you show love and kindness to others, you give them an opportunity to change their attitudes and follow Christ more fully.”

God Loveth His Children

“While many Latter-day Saints, through individual effort, the exercise of faith, and reliance upon the enabling power of the Atonement, overcome same-gender attraction in mortality, others may not be free of this challenge in this life.” (Note it is not said that this is through fault of the others “not trying to change” or not “trying hard enough.” The context of this paragraph makes it clear that there will be those who try, but find themselves unable to change).

God Loveth His Children

‘Many questions, however, including some related to same-gender attractions, must await a future answer, even in the next life.”

God Loveth His Children

“You are best served by concentrating on the things you can presently understand and control, not wasting energy or enlarging frustration by worrying about that which God has not yet fully revealed.”

God Loveth His Children

Edit: I also agree that Willow should follow the advice of her bishop. He may be inspired, and know the situation better, than any of the rest of us. I, however, do not see that as reason to abandon the principles of love, understanding, and compassion.

Edited April 13, 2010 by GaySaint

[crazypotato]

"We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71).

In "Same Gender Attraction", Elder Dallin H Oaks (Ensign Oct 1995) says:

Because Satan desires that “all men might be miserable like unto himself” (2 Ne. 2:27), his most strenuous efforts are directed at encouraging those choices and actions that will thwart God’s plan for his children. He seeks to undermine the principle of individual accountability, to persuade us to misuse our sacred powers of procreation, to discourage marriage and childbearing by worthy men and women, and to confuse what it means to be male or female.

The First Presidency has declared that “there is a distinction between [1] immoral thoughts and feelings and [2] participating in either immoral heterosexual or any homosexual behavior.” 4 Although immoral thoughts are less serious than immoral behavior, such thoughts also need to be resisted and repented of because we know that “our thoughts will also condemn us” (Alma 12:14). Immoral thoughts (and the less serious feelings that lead to them) can bring about behavior that is sinful.

Applying the First Presidency’s distinction to the question of same-sex relationships, we should distinguish between (1) homosexual (or lesbian) “thoughts and feelings” (which should be resisted and redirected), and (2) “homosexual behavior” (which is a serious sin).

We should note that the words homosexual, lesbian, and gay are adjectives to describe particular thoughts, feelings, or behaviors. We should refrain from using these words as nouns to identify particular conditions or specific persons. Our religious doctrine dictates this usage. It is wrong to use these words to denote a condition, because this implies that a person is consigned by birth to a circumstance in which he or she has no choice in respect to the critically important matter of sexual behavior.

Feelings are another matter. Some kinds of feelings seem to be inborn. Others are traceable to mortal experiences. Still other feelings seem to be acquired from a complex interaction of “nature and nurture.” All of us have some feelings we did not choose, but the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we still have the power to resist and reform our feelings (as needed) and to assure that they do not lead us to entertain inappropriate thoughts or to engage in sinful behavior.

Satan would like us to believe that we are not responsible in this life. That is the result he tried to achieve by his contest in the pre-existence. A person who insists that he is not responsible for the exercise of his free agency because he was ‘born that way’ is trying to ignore the outcome of the War in Heaven. We are responsible, and if we argue otherwise, our efforts become part of the propaganda effort of the Adversary.

“Individual responsibility is a law of life. It applies in the law of man and the law of God. Society holds people responsible to control their impulses so we can live in a civilized society. God holds his children responsible to control their impulses in order that they can keep his commandments and realize their eternal destiny. The law does not excuse the short-tempered man who surrenders to his impulse to pull a trigger on his tormentor, or the greedy man who surrenders to his impulse to steal, or the pedophile who surrenders to his impulse to satisfy his sexual urges with children. …

“There is much we do not know about the extent of freedom we have in view of the various thorns in the flesh that afflict us in mortality. But this much we do know; we all have our free agency and God holds us accountable for the way we use it in thought and deed. That is fundamental.” 7

End of quotes. Do you see how we are to "control our thoughts" not just our behavior? And we have free agency to do so?

[crazypotato]

GaySaint,

You are full of it! Quote me on saying there should be no love and compassion! You can't quote me on it. I ask you to please stop.

[Elgama]

I find the dates on the quotes in the last few posts interesting

[GaySaint]

... the emphasis on loving and having compassion for homosexuals are all ways that Satan deceives good people. These are all ideas that have been introduced into this thread and I am absolutely saddened by them.

What else can be concluded from this, other than the idea that love and compassion for homosexuals is a deception and originates from Satan?

If this is not what you intended, then of course I appologize, and I ask that you please expand on what you meant by this.

[Soulsearcher]

GaySaint,

You are full of it! Quote me on saying there should be no love and compassion! You can't quote me on it. I ask you to please stop.

The watered down explanations of the gospel, mixed with reasons why homosexuality is inborn, mixed with advice to not always listen to your bishop, mixed with advice that people have had personal revelations that for themselves go against what our prophets have said about homosexuality, mixed with the emphasis on loving and having compassion for homosexuals are all ways that Satan deceives good people.

Funny I read it in a similar way as saint did.

[GaySaint]

Now in all fairness to Crazypotato, it should be noted that both Soulsearcher and myself are same-sex attracted. Perhaps this was just one of those posts that is taken differently depending on whether you actually deal with this issue or not (which, again, highlights the need for this type of discussion so that members of the church don't accidently offend)? Did the straight members of the church here interperet Crazypotato's quote differently?