The People before Adam

[Snow]

Simply an observation.

Hardly - it's just made up - an untruth.

You couldn't find a single LDS member on this board that puts more credence in the SS than in the Twelve.

[SLC2002GOLD]

SLC,

I think you are silly.

Rameupton, I might very well be silly...actually I might be suffering from some form of Felony Stupid for subjecting myself to the ravings of people who love to mingle their philosophies of the world with a few scriptures of the Lord.

I've seen in my short time on here, posters praise the posts of Apostates, whilst at the same time condemning and castigating those who won't accept their posts as Gospel.

This is a public forum, designed for a free exchange of views and ideas. If my views don't coincide with yours, then I'm silly...So be it.

[Snow]

Rameupton, I might very well be silly...actually I might be suffering from some form of Felony Stupid for subjecting myself to the ravings of people who love to mingle their philosophies of the world with a few scriptures of the Lord.

I've seen in my short time on here, posters praise the posts of Apostates, whilst at the same time condemning and castigating those who won't accept their posts as Gospel.

This is a public forum, designed for a free exchange of views and ideas. If my views don't coincide with yours, then I'm silly...So be it.

YOU made a specific allegation... that specially claimed that folks (the implication being most folks) here at LDS.net follow the September Six instead of the Quorum of the Twelve.

We both know that it is untrue - you made it up in order to attack and demean others falsely, and that is why, when asked for specifics on your allegation, you repeated ignore the requests.

Why are you making up such untrue allegations? What do you gain by it?

[john doe]

Rameupton, I might very well be silly...actually I might be suffering from some form of Felony Stupid for subjecting myself to the ravings of people who love to mingle their philosophies of the world with a few scriptures of the Lord.

I've seen in my short time on here, posters praise the posts of Apostates, whilst at the same time condemning and castigating those who won't accept their posts as Gospel.

This is a public forum, designed for a free exchange of views and ideas. If my views don't coincide with yours, then I'm silly...So be it.

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[rameumptom]

Rameupton, I might very well be silly...actually I might be suffering from some form of Felony Stupid for subjecting myself to the ravings of people who love to mingle their philosophies of the world with a few scriptures of the Lord.

I've seen in my short time on here, posters praise the posts of Apostates, whilst at the same time condemning and castigating those who won't accept their posts as Gospel.

This is a public forum, designed for a free exchange of views and ideas. If my views don't coincide with yours, then I'm silly...So be it.

Could you please show some quotes where LDS members on this list have "praised the posts of Apostates"? I'd really like to see where that occurred.

When it comes to evolution, I quoted from apostles, not apostates. Or shall we use your twisted logic and come to the conclusion that Elders Talmage (author of Jesus the Christ), and B.H. Roberts, and John Widtsoe were those Apostates you were referencing?

[HiJolly]

So where is the evidence that leads George McCready Price to Joseph F Smith?

Or maybe . . . both men believe God?

Oh, undoubtedly. Here's the first two hits that came up on Google:

The B. H. Roberts, Joseph Fielding Smith, James E. Talmage Affair (Richard Sherlock and Jeffrey E. Keller)

Talmage's views during the 1931 discussions in the quorum were presumably sympathetic to much of the spirit of Roberts's efforts. Unfortunately, not a great deal is known about the views he expressed during these discussions. What is known, however, is revealing. Talmage was particularly upset by Smith's use of George [p.99] McCready Price as an authority in geology. Price was professor of geology at a small parochial college in the midwest and author of many books purporting to vindicate orthodox Christian belief by exposing the weaknesses of scientific theory.21 After a quorum meeting in which Smith quoted extensively from Price's The New Geology, Talmage decided to prepare himself more fully for a debate on the merits of this type of evidence. He wrote to his eldest son, Sterling, for an opinion of the book. Sterling was a professor of geology at the New Mexico School of Mines.

The younger Talmage responded by pointing out a number of technical errors in the specific passages quoted by Smith and then added: "You ask 'how Price is held in the opinion of geologists in general.' As far as I can tell (and it seems to be the unanimous opinion of those who know his book, at least as far as I have talked with them), he is considered as a theological fanatic, who has gone off on a tangent that most geologists seem to find funny. I never heard his book discussed … without the element of comedy being dragged in. All of Price's arguments, in principle at least, were advanced and refuted from fifty to a hundred years ago. They are not 'new.' His ideas certainly are not 'Geology.' With these two corrections, the title remains the best part of the book."22

The Mormon Faith and Black Folks: Questions 45

Also, Joseph Fielding Smith became an adherent of the writings of George McCready Price; a white racist Seventh-day Adventist writer and the ‘father’ of ‘Creation Science’.

To understand why Joseph Fielding Smith considered blacks to be “inferior” one must understand that he was an avid reader of the works of George McCready Price.

HiJolly

[JohnnyRudick]

But how do we know that Joseph F Smith was an avid adherent of the writings of George McCready Price?

[Moksha]

I had to look it up to refresh my memory of who the September Six were: September Six - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't appear that any of them were into evolution.

[JohnnyRudick]

I had to look it up to refresh my memory of who the September Six were: September Six - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't appear that any of them were into evolution.

I don't think that was at all what their problem was.

But "loose lips . . ."

[Snow]

I had to look it up to refresh my memory of who the September Six were: September Six - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't appear that any of them were into evolution.

I don't know how you surmise that. They were all intelligent and educated. I'd suspect that they all accepted evolution.

[pam]

I will have to admit my ignorance. I had no even heard of the September Six. So of course would not have been able to follow them.

[Hemidakota]

And apparently, PBS, NGC, anything but KBYU?

Never watch it.

[Hemidakota]

SLC,

I think you are silly. Very few, if any on this list, would support the September Six. At least not on the things that got them excommunicated.

Second, none of them were excommunicated regarding pre-Adamites or evolution. If you are going to make such strong statements, perhaps you can support your statements? Else, how about an apology?

I know and work online with several people who work for FARMS and FAIR. Many of them are also proponents of evolution. Do you think they are also apostates? I don't. And they reach the broad political spectrum from extreme conservative to liberal.

Maybe you should actually spend some time getting to know people before you make such claims about them.

Exactly...

[Hemidakota]

Question:

Did Joseph Fielding Smith get his ideas concerning organic evolution from the Lord, or from this guy?

George McCready Price - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Guess where the evidence leads us? Always follow the evidence.

HiJolly

Interesting...

[Hemidakota]

I don't think that was at all what their problem was.

But "loose lips . . ."

Let them come forward and explain what REALLY HAPPEN. Though, I am not a fan of the wiki god or the wiki gospel when it comes to reality.

[Hemidakota]

Oh, undoubtedly. Here's the first two hits that came up on Google:

The B. H. Roberts, Joseph Fielding Smith, James E. Talmage Affair (Richard Sherlock and Jeffrey E. Keller)

The Mormon Faith and Black Folks: Questions 45

HiJolly

What we need to remember and I pretty much harp on this before, not ALL PROPHETS will be given the past record on what happened to the earth. Each prophet has a specific task and role to perform in the kingdom. The question here, what was President Joseph F. Smith tasking and role in the kingdom in being a prophet?

They may be called SEERS, PROPHETS, and REVELATORS, not all of them will be allowed for the church in exercising those specific keys unless the Lord commands it. The question here, was it personal agenda for President Smith to allow such declaration to come forth? Or was it the Lord’s commandment?

Thanks for the link.

[rameumptom]

Pam,

The September Six were a group of LDS intellectuals who challenged various church beliefs in the early 1990s. They were all excommunicated because they did not follow the counsel of their stake presidents to keep their personal views to themselves. Many, such as Margaret Toscano, insisted on publishing their views even after the warning from stake leaders. Her views were on women as goddesses, suggesting goddess worship, and IIRC, that the Holy Spirit was God's wife. Given she was teaching at BYU at the time, her writings would have held great weight with many people had she not been reprimanded.

It amazes me that after almost 20 years, people still point to that one period to show how "mean spirited" the Church is! In reality, we should just see it as it really was: a period when some proud people chose not to listen to their Church leaders, and were properly reprimanded for it.

[JohnnyRudick]

Let them come forward and explain what REALLY HAPPEN. Though, I am not a fan of the wiki god or the wiki gospel when it comes to reality.

My comment was referring to them not being in trouble for any belief that may have been held in Evolution but for "loose lips" so to speak. . .

[Moksha]

I don't know how you surmise that. They were all intelligent and educated. I'd suspect that they all accepted evolution.

No, I meant in the sense that these September Six had in someway run afoul with some of the Brethren over the issue of evolution theory versus creation story. I agree that all concerned were intelligent and educated.

[JohnnyRudick]

. . . I agree that all concerned were intelligent and educated.

To be sure:mellow:

[rameumptom]

No, I meant in the sense that these September Six had in someway run afoul with some of the Brethren over the issue of evolution theory versus creation story. I agree that all concerned were intelligent and educated.

As I noted, none of it was regarding evolution. Avraham Gileadi (who has since returned to membership) was excommunicated for possibly one of two things: rumors were he was ex'ed for conduct, but also there were issues with a book on Isaiah he published that stated the Church would collapse into apostasy - clearly against the modern teachings of the Prophets not leading us astray.

Lavina Anderson, Maxine Hanks, Lynne Whitesides, Paul and Margaret Toscano were ex'ed for their feminist teachings on Heavenly Mother, including praying to her, and that (IIRC) she was the Holy Spirit.

D. Michael Quinn was ex'ed ostensibly for his "historic writings" that attacked the Church. But it is as likely he was ex'ed for homosexual conduct.

[Moksha]

As I noted, none of it was regarding evolution.

That was an excellent point, since then we are free to both understand the mechanisms by which God has worked, as well as turn a primitivist eye to it all. I am sure we are blessed either way, although the path of understanding would seem to be the more eternally progressive.

[HiJolly]

But how do we know that Joseph F Smith was an avid adherent of the writings of George McCready Price?

President Smith wrote more than one enthusiastic letter to him -- they kept up a correspondence, back and forth.

HiJolly

[JohnnyRudick]

President Smith wrote more than one enthusiastic letter to him -- they kept up a correspondence, back and forth.

HiJolly

Where may I find copies of those letters?

[Snow]

Pam,

The September Six were a group of LDS intellectuals who challenged various church beliefs in the early 1990s. They were all excommunicated because they did not follow the counsel of their stake presidents to keep their personal views to themselves. Many, such as Margaret Toscano, insisted on publishing their views even after the warning from stake leaders. Her views were on women as goddesses, suggesting goddess worship, and IIRC, that the Holy Spirit was God's wife. Given she was teaching at BYU at the time, her writings would have held great weight with many people had she not been reprimanded.

It amazes me that after almost 20 years, people still point to that one period to show how "mean spirited" the Church is! In reality, we should just see it as it really was: a period when some proud people chose not to listen to their Church leaders, and were properly reprimanded for it.

Margaret Toscano was not one of the so-called September Six.

Unless you have inside information that you should not have, you don't know why they were excommunicated. That information is not shared publicly. What you have is supposition.

I wouldn't call the Church "mean spirited" in the least but it seems clear enough that the excommunications were in some measure a product of the times and the Church's attitude towards the twin evils (not in my eyes - but in the eyes of some in Church hierarchy) of feminists and intellectuals. I doubt that all six would have suffered the same fate in today's Church's more enlightened view. Who knows, but I doubt it.

For what it's worth, I've talked personally with half or so of the Six and with Margaret Toscano, although it has been several years now. Whitesides said her main desire was to hold the priesthood - and she does so know in a Native American church. Quinn still believes the Church is true - it's a pity that such a scholar has come to the sorry state he is in (from my pov). Anderson says she attends Church with more regularity than her Bishop.

I've not talked to Gileadi but he has said in print that his case was different than the other 5 and he does not wish to be lumped in with them.

Hanks used to work for my mom who said she was a lousy employee.

I heard Margaret Toscano talk at a symposium. She had some theory about sex and spirituality that I didn't quite grasp.