Mormonism and Calvinism.

[Forte]

Hi everyone.

I don't claim to be an expert on Mormonism or Calvinism, but I was reading the Book of Mormon today and saw two passages that caught my attention:

1 Nephi 20:8

and

1 Nephi 20:10

I'm not sure if it's okay from a copyright perspective to post portions of the Book of Mormon so I'll jut name the verses for now.

Anyway, in 1 Nephi 20:8, it says there are people called transgressors from the womb. Does that mean Mormons share the "total depravity" belief Calvinism shares, that all men are sinful from conception?

The reason I bring up 20:10 also is because it reminds me of the belief of unconditional election (that some people are chosen to be saved and others not).

Anyway I don't mean this accusingly, I was just curious if I was mis-reading, and if there was a Mormon opinion about Total Depravity and Unconditional Election.

[Dravin]

Just a heads up in case you didn't catch it, but Nephi is quoting Isaiah (Chapter 48) in that chapter.

Before the first question can be answered we have to define sinful, if you mean to say that from conception (or birth) one is guilty of personal sin, then no, Mormonism does not profess that. I recommend reading Moroni Chapter 8 for that perspective. If you mean is man fallen and is the natural man an enemy to God, most certainly. For that I recommend Mosiah Chapter 3 (Verse 19 in particular). In regards to verse 1 Ne 20:8, God knew they would be an idolatrous lot but he chose them anyway and as far as verse 10 goes, he plucked them from Egypt and is working with/refining them. Chose as in chose to work with them and make them his covenant people, not chose them for automatic damnation/exaltation.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Dravin

[Finrock]

Good evening Forte. It is a pleasure to meet you and welcome to the forums. :)

Hi everyone.

I don't claim to be an expert on Mormonism or Calvinism, but I was reading the Book of Mormon today and saw two passages that caught my attention:

1 Nephi 20:8

and

1 Nephi 20:10

I'm not sure if it's okay from a copyright perspective to post portions of the Book of Mormon so I'll jut name the verses for now.

Anyway, in 1 Nephi 20:8, it says there are people called transgressors from the womb. Does that mean Mormons share the "total depravity" belief Calvinism shares, that all men are sinful from conception?

The reason I bring up 20:10 also is because it reminds me of the belief of unconditional election (that some people are chosen to be saved and others not).

Anyway I don't mean this accusingly, I was just curious if I was mis-reading, and if there was a Mormon opinion about Total Depravity and Unconditional Election.

I'll do what I can to answer your question. First, in case you do not already know this, I wanted to point this out because it might be helpful to realize that the chapter in question is actually a copy of the text of the Book of Isaiah. There are several portions of Isaiah that Nephi felt were important enough that he wrote them down in the Book of Mormon. So, it is in the Book of Mormon, true, but it isn't original Book of Mormon text as it is being copied from already existing scripture.

However, 1 Ne. 20:8, in my understanding, is speaking about the fact that all mankind are born in to a fallible state. Although all of us are affected by the Fall, it does not mean we are predestined to damnation or sin. We are simply born in to a fallen state, but which can be overcome through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Further, it is our doctrine that the Atonement satisfied the demands of justice for little children who have not reached the age of accountability (we believe this age is 8 years old) and that they are incapable of sin and are clean and pure by virtue of the atonement.

For 1 Ne. 20:10, I believe this is a reference to the children of Israel being chosen to be God's people and that God is working to make them pure by refining them through their afflictions.

Regards,

Finrock

[Forte]

Thanks a lot Dravin and Finrock. It did pass me by that the chapter was actually just Issiah 48. I think the source of my confusion is that the translation was a tad different, so I didn't recognize it at first.

That really cleared a lot up, thanks guys

[Hemidakota]

Translation variants is due to the many changes made since Nephi's day.

[rameumptom]

Nephi quotes Isaiah, who is speaking to Israel, the nation. He is not referring to individuals.

The nation of Israel was born under Moses' tutelage at Mt Sinai. But they were formed at a time when they were sinning. God almost destroyed them at Sinai, and several times later for their wickedness.

Israel, as a "nation of priests" is not considered truly and fully born/created until they crossed the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Their furnace of affliction was the 40 years in the wilderness that allowed for the death of the wicked, and to allow the righteous children to be born into the Promised Land.

[Justice]

Translation variants is due to the many changes made since Nephi's day.

...changes that have been made in the Bible we have today, not in Nephi's rendition of them.

[Elgama]

every single one of us even the Saviour was born with ability to transgress, with the exception of the Saviour everyone of us is going to transgress.

[rameumptom]

...changes that have been made in the Bible we have today, not in Nephi's rendition of them.

Any time something is translated from one language to another, there is a loss of information in the translation. So the Book of Mormon in English still is not perfect, as the translation is not perfect. And if Joseph Smith generally used the KJV to write the Isaiah portions, then there may even be a bigger difference between Isaiah in the Bible and in the BoM.

[Justice]

Any time something is translated from one language to another, there is a loss of information in the translation. So the Book of Mormon in English still is not perfect, as the translation is not perfect. And if Joseph Smith generally used the KJV to write the Isaiah portions, then there may even be a bigger difference between Isaiah in the Bible and in the BoM.

I have a book called the Isaiah Chapters.

It goes through some significant discoveries in the Isaiah chapters in the Book of Mormon.

I highly recommend it.

Remember, the Book of Mormon was not translated by a man from language to language using his knowledge of the languages.

[Traveler]

Nephi quotes Isaiah, who is speaking to Israel, the nation. He is not referring to individuals.

The nation of Israel was born under Moses' tutelage at Mt Sinai. But they were formed at a time when they were sinning. God almost destroyed them at Sinai, and several times later for their wickedness.

Israel, as a "nation of priests" is not considered truly and fully born/created until they crossed the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Their furnace of affliction was the 40 years in the wilderness that allowed for the death of the wicked, and to allow the righteous children to be born into the Promised Land.

Interesting that you have this view of Nephi and Isaiah. I thought that is was Nephi the recommended that we "liken" the scruptures unto ourselves, as individuals?

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

Nephi also viewed things on primarily a nation level. It isn't until one moves further into Nephite Christology that one gets deep into individual salvation.

And yes, we can "liken" Isaiah unto ourselves, but we need to also realize the original intent of what is written, so we do not misinterpret the original meaning.

[mnn727]

There couldn't be 2 Christian philosophies further apart than Mormonism and Calvinism. As I understand it Calvinism professes predestination, total depravity and unconditional election.

Mormonism professes free agency, no original sin, and (wo)mans choice as far as where (s)he'll end up (based on their knowldege and desires and follow-through)