Is Early Morning Seminary Deprivative?

[Onhech]

So I came across this article earlier this evening. Then I joined this site. Then I saw this section. So I had to talk about it.

ARTICLE

Basically for those who do not wish to read the thought/argument is put forth:

1)Research shows that most teenagers receive less then the suggested eight hours of sleep per night.

2) Research suggests sleep deprivation is linked with academic performance

3) Seminary could be having depreciative effects on those attendees.

What does everyone think about it? Agree disagree? Why. I'll wait before I weigh in on this one.

Yay first post!

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Lynden Jensen

Check out my blog at:

Know♣Justice

[rameumptom]

I think that if you get your kids to bed earlier at night, then there isn't as much of a problem. D&C 88 encourages that we retire early to bed, and arise early so that our minds are refreshed. This only works if you do both.

Teens and many adults like the night life, but the fact is one cannot have both the late nights and the early morning seminary. Time to choose.

[Jbs2763]

so going to bed at midnight at getting up at 5 is a bad idea?

[Jenamarie]

It's only "deprative" for someone who values the social scene over the Lord. Not that teens must give up hanging out with friends in order to attend Seminary, but setting limits on how long into the evening those "hanging out" times go is a good exercise in self-discpline, and helps the teen practice putting the Lord first in their lives. And of course, starting out your High School day with a good dose of Scripture study is extremely beneficial, no matter how much sleep you got the night before.

At least, that was my experience as an Early Morning Seminary student.

[Wingnut]

It's only "deprative" for someone who values the social scene over the Lord. Not that teens must give up hanging out with friends in order to attend Seminary, but setting limits on how long into the evening those "hanging out" times go is a good exercise in self-discpline, and helps the teen practice putting the Lord first in their lives. And of course, starting out your High School day with a good dose of Scripture study is extremely beneficial, no matter how much sleep you got the night before.

At least, that was my experience as an Early Morning Seminary student.

My brother is 17, and is regularly up past midnight doing homework, studying for AP exams, practicing for the SAT, etc. every night, and is then late for early-morning seminary every day. It's not a social thing in his case.

[Jenamarie]

My brother is 17, and is regularly up past midnight doing homework, studying for AP exams, practicing for the SAT, etc. every night, and is then late for early-morning seminary every day. It's not a social thing in his case.

Ya, I thought of that aspect after I posted my response. But I do still stand by my stance that it's a matter of priorities (whether those competing priorities are social or educational). If you've got too many "good" things going on that you can't make room for the "best", then you need to take a serious look at what you could possibly cut out, or cut back on.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I think with the proliferation of online learning, we could overcome the inconvenience and hassles of early morning seminary by having parts of it online and managed centrally in those countries that are technologically advanced. There could be a local component as well so the students get the face to face interaction.

However, I find the church is usually behind the cutting edge on technology matters like this (with good reason) so I don't see this happening any time soon.

[Mahone]

Personally, early morning is very rarely the best time for me to do anything. Apparently, most people are more productive first thing in the morning; but with me, it's usually early afternoon where my productivity reaches its peak. I have to move around a lot every morning in order to keep myself alert, if I'm just sitting there listening, without any kind of real interaction, I'll most likely fall asleep. It's not due to lack of sleep either. I'm like this every morning, whether I've had five hours or twelve hours of sleep.

Luckily early morning seminary was impossible for us, throughout the entire four years I was in it. I had to be at the train station at the other end of the city by 7am each morning for school, there is no chance I'd have been able to get to the chapel, have seminary and then back to the station for that time. Other people had similar issues.

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

http://www.lds.org/Static%20Files/PDF/Magazines/NewEra/English/2008/NE_2008_01_08___02241_000_008.pdf

I'll counter that article with this New Era article about seminary, which actually features our seminary class a few years back when I was in it.

It's really just a matter of balancing your priorities. I was in marching band as well as honors/AP classes and we had seminary at 6:40am. I was there every day I wasn't too sick for school and graduated with a letter all four years. Any academic issues were definitely not a result of seminary but of me being a procrastinator. I know my senior year I had a lot of homework and I ended up moving my sleep schedule around to go to bed shortly after dinner and waking up at 3-4am and doing my homework then, because it was easier for me. And I'm not a morning person at all [my dad jokes I should be a nurse so I could do the overnight shift].

Not saying I'm perfect at all because I frequently slept in class, but that was a matter of me not managing my time well enough rather than seminary being too early. Rather I think seminary helps with school because your body needs about 2hrs to fully awaken, so by the time you actually get to school, you're wide awake for your first class, unlike everyone else who just got out of bed.

So bottom line, sleep deprivation is bad, but early seminary doesn't itself cause that.

[Onhech]

Agreed Metal. I think the time is well spent. I also think it is interesting that active LDS members are statically better academically.

[Wingnut]

I think with the proliferation of online learning, we could overcome the inconvenience and hassles of early morning seminary by having parts of it online and managed centrally in those countries that are technologically advanced. There could be a local component as well so the students get the face to face interaction.

However, I find the church is usually behind the cutting edge on technology matters like this (with good reason) so I don't see this happening any time soon.

But what comes next then? Virtual Sunday School? Relief Society? Sacrament meeting?

You started the thread last week (or the beginning of this week?) about meetings via conference call. I think business meetings are fine in a digital world, but teaching scenarios should happen in group settings, where all can feel the Spirit and be edified together.

[pam]

I think with the proliferation of online learning, we could overcome the inconvenience and hassles of early morning seminary by having parts of it online and managed centrally in those countries that are technologically advanced. There could be a local component as well so the students get the face to face interaction.

However, I find the church is usually behind the cutting edge on technology matters like this (with good reason) so I don't see this happening any time soon.

I would hate having seminary this way. I loved early morning seminary. It was a great way to start my day. Scripture chases just wouldn't seem the same to me in a virtual world.

[Mahone]

Agreed Metal. I think the time is well spent. I also think it is interesting that active LDS members are statically better academically.

Do you have a source for that?

[Guest mormonmusic]

But what comes next then? Virtual Sunday School? Relief Society? Sacrament meeting?

You started the thread last week (or the beginning of this week?) about meetings via conference call. I think business meetings are fine in a digital world, but teaching scenarios should happen in group settings, where all can feel the Spirit and be edified together.

These attitudes will probably wear away as these technologies get more acceptance in society. Many of the next generation are taking high school courses online these days, and will think of these alternate delivery system as a given/ As I said in the conference call thread -- my whole quorum leadership felt the spirit many times just on the phone during the quorum presidency training component of our meetings. And I've felt it on this forum with some of the posts I've read.

And, you seem to have overlooked the fact that I suggested an online component supplemented by face to face meetings.

But what comes next then? Virtual Sunday School? Relief Society? Sacrament meeting?

You might want to check out the thread on the slippery slope argument as a fallacy of debate. One has to show there is a high probability of one action (online seminary) being the cause of the next step -- virtual Sunday meetings -- to have a valid argument.

Edited May 15, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Wingnut]

And, you seem to have overlooked the fact that I suggested an online component supplemented by face to face meetings.

No, I noted that. I just think that training and business meetings are one thing, but instructional meetings/classes are different.

You might want to check out the thread on the slippery slope argument as a fallacy of debate. One has to show there is a high probability of one action (online seminary) being the cause of the next step -- virtual Sunday meetings -- to have a valid argument.

I don't think it would be causal, but rather correlary.

[john doe]

Wouldn't it be great if we could just telecommute to church every Sunday? I could do it from the driver's seat of my new ski boat. I could mute the screaming kids during the sacrament, and drink lake water and a saltine by proxy. And the talks? My snoring wouldn't bother the High Council speaker if they can't see me sleeping.

[pam]

Wait...you got a new ski boat and you haven't invited me to go out in it let alone come see it?????

[john doe]

I didn't want to make you jealous. I haven't even told my wife about them yet.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Wouldn't it be great if we could just telecommute to church every Sunday? I could do it from the driver's seat of my new ski boat. I could mute the screaming kids during the sacrament, and drink lake water and a saltine by proxy. And the talks? My snoring wouldn't bother the High Council speaker if they can't see me sleeping.

Aren't you already able to do that during General Conference since it's available over wireless Internet connection?

[Mahone]

Aren't you already able to do that during General Conference since it's available over wireless Internet connection?

That could make for an interesting thread title. "Most interesting place you have watched live general conference". Only mormons

[Nelly]

It is super early. I have to wake up at 5 AM every morning. It's really hard though, for all the work I've had in the magnet program at my school, from extracurricular activities, it's exhausting. I know there were mornings I would sleep through my alarm clock because I was so exhausted from staying up all night from being home from practice at 8 at night and then studying and doing homework until midnight- one in the morning.

I had to quit my activities after school because I wasn't willing to give up the magnet program because I believed it would help my in my future, and it is.

There's a lot of other kids in my seminary that were the same as well. It's all hard on us but we somehow find someway to get there!

Good thing it's my last year and I'm done in 10 days . It was worth it while it last but I'm just done with waking up that early.

But all in the end, Seminary is what helps me have a great day, and it is worth it even though I lost a lot of sleep :)

[john doe]

Aren't you already able to do that during General Conference since it's available over wireless Internet connection?

I suppose you could, but don't you feel some kind of disconnect when that happens? I hear all the time about people who would gladly travel thousands of miles just to see and hear conference in person one time if they could arrange it. There are good reasons why GAs constantly travel the globe holding meetings in areas where members can attend easily and see and feel their spirit personally. Technology is great, but personally I would rather be in a class with a teacher than watching a teacher teach a class on TV. You get something different and less complete when you are not there in person.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I suppose you could, but don't you feel some kind of disconnect when that happens? I hear all the time about people who would gladly travel thousands of miles just to see and hear conference in person one time if they could arrange it. There are good reasons why GAs constantly travel the globe holding meetings in areas where members can attend easily and see and feel their spirit personally. Technology is great, but personally I would rather be in a class with a teacher than watching a teacher teach a class on TV. You get something different and less complete when you are not there in person.

I do feel the disconnect when you're not physically present, but only when the interaction is two-way. When it's one-way communication, I'd rather just sit at home and listen; I seem to feel the Spirit anyway, whether I'm with the person or not.

In our Stake Conference last time, we had the meeting opened by a member of the SP, and then a live video talk from a GA and a member of the General YM Presidency (it might've been recorded, I don't remember, or may have been a live feed). Then we had talks from our local Stake leaders, so we're starting to see hybrid types of experiences already. So the meeting was partly virtual, partly online.

In most teaching/learning environments I've experienced, there's an opportunity to put the easy learning stuff online. People do the easy material there, and then come to face to face for meetings which leverage the benefits of face-to-face interaction. When people come prepared to class, the results can be amazing. You can teach at a higher level, the students are already filled with the basic knowledge/content and have had time to generate higher-order questions etcetera.

This form of learning is still evolving, I believe, but it's one to watch. I suspect the Church will be slow to adopt it however.

Also, my wife was raised in a part of the Church where there was no early morning seminary, so she did all the lessons by some kind of correspondence; so the Online Seminary idea has merits to also reach people who have no other way of getting the experience.

[pam]

Also, my wife was raised in a part of the Church where there was no early morning seminary, so she did all the lessons by some kind of correspondence; so the Online Seminary idea has merits to also reach people who have no other way of getting the experience.

I did 6 months of seminary one on one with an instructor in her home. I got nothing out of it. There wasn't the interraction with the other students. There wasn't the games to help learn. There wasn't the scripture chasing that made learning the scriptures fun.

Again, I noticed a HUGE difference in how my days went with school and other activities when I went to seminary before school and going to someones house after school once a week. Just wasn't the same.

[carlimac]

I hated having my kids go to early morning seminary the first few years. I felt bone tired for them, watching them stay up late to complete assignments after spending literally 12 hours at school with after school sports and activities- then Young Women's and Young Mens activities. It was all too much. BUT all three of my kids have/ are graduating with high GPA's (one kid never got less than an A, even in honors and AP classes) and have gotten scholarships to college. I think the Lord first blessed my chldren with bright minds (they all know there is much reqired of them because of it), but then helped them out also because of their seminary attendance.

I know it hasn't been this way for all their friends. Some have struggled much more with grades. But it truely is amazing how many LDS kids have graduated with honors from our town. So seminary must not be hurting them academically too much.

So now we are moving to a town with released time seminary and I've done a complete 180 over this. We'll miss early morning seminary so much. Not only that but school doesn't even start till almost 9 AM in our future high schools. It will be interesting to see how it affects the younger four kids. Will they become too lazy? Stay up too late and end up with poor grades because they aren't being challenged enough? Time will tell.