Distribution of plants and land animals

[rameumptom]

Helaman 14:22 says,

Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above the earth and beneath.

This is referencing the destruction at Christ's death. If we take it at face value, we should expect that the entire earth, all the continents, etc., were broken up in fragments by a world wide earthquake.

It did not happen that way, did it? Instead, we understand the term "whole earth" to mean the lands of the Nephites, particularly in their central locations. Even though Jerusalem had an earthquake, it did not cause huge devastation as we would imagine if the earth was all broken up.

Clearly, we need to read the scriptures intelligently. Not every word is to be meant literally, but some need to be taken into context of all the rest of the knowledge we have. Even the modern scripture agrees with this concept. In D&C 19, we are told that the terms Eternal Punishment and Everlasting Punishment are misunderstood by most of mankind. God allows it to be misunderstood, so that people will repent from fear, if for no other reason.

Continuing revelation is important, because God gives us "here a little, there a little" as we are ready to understand it. And we receive it through our weaknesses, so we may not fully understand a revelation and its implications.

Today's prophets understand some scriptures very different from Brigham Young. I see some things regarding the atonement and salvation differently from Elder Bruce R. McConkie. It is because as time moves forward, we hopefully gain a greater insight into how things really are.

[Dravin]

The Bible tells of the 4 corners of the earth, a clear statement that they believed the earth to be like a blanket, not a spherical object.

I've used the phrase the four corners of the earth and I'm sure others have as well and I and they (thinking of my contemporaries) are fully aware the Earth is not a saltine. Consider D&C 124 (verses 3 and 128) which talks about the four corners of the earth. Did Joseph Smith (or the Lord depending on how you look at it) believe the Earth was flat?

I'm not saying they didn't believe in a flat earth (I've not significantly researched it), I just disagree that the phrase four corners of the earth is , in isolation at least, a clear statement of belief in a flat earth.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Dravin

[Traveler]

Sorry, but the Book of Abraham suggests a flat earth-centric belief. The moon is higher in orbit and closer to Kolob than the earth, according to the BoA. The Bible tells of the 4 corners of the earth, a clear statement that they believed the earth to be like a blanket, not a spherical object.

Yes, some ancients believed the earth to be round. But it was mostly the ancient scientists in Greece, etc., that had figured it out. That does not mean the average religious person understood this, particularly prior to the Flood. And the Bible is clearly flat earth.

See the following links for more info:

Flat Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/flat/flateart.htm

Wikipedia got some facts wrong - the Pythagoreans of ancient Egypt (showing up about the time of Abraham – 2200 BC) calculated the circumference of the earth and created a “meridian” line in Egypt associated with number based 60 a circumference of 360 degrees (6 X 60) for a complete circle – all used for navigation. They used this to create clocks with the ratio of the sun movements above the earth again with number based 60 and a complete rotation of 360 segments defining the size of the earth.

A careful reading of the Book of Abraham gives a clear indication of Pythagorean thinking in ratios to all things that exist (your reference to moon and earth) and that Abraham was the one to give the Egyptians their math science.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I've used the phrase the four corners of the earth and I'm sure others have as well and I and they (thinking of my contemporaries) are fully aware the Earth is not a saltine. Consider D&C 124 (verses 3 and 128) which talks about the four corners of the earth. Did Joseph Smith (or the Lord depending on how you look at it) believe the Earth was flat?

I'm not saying they didn't believe in a flat earth (I've not significantly researched it), I just disagree that the phrase four corners of the earth is , in isolation at least, a clear statement of belief in a flat earth.

The 4 corners are compass readings as represented on maps which some have come to think of as proof that anyone ever using such a map thinks the world to be flat.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Why do you believe something for which there is no evidence and there is, in fact, voluminous evidence against?

It's not like you have to believe it in order to go to heaven.

You're right. It's not a strong, testimony-like belief, it is more like a "working" belief. I probably have a hard time giving up the idea because it is such a strong "basic" story taught from when I was young on. As with many things in the gospel and scripture stories, I have a "working" knowledge and set of beliefs without a full knowledge or understanding that allows for a framework of several other concepts and further understanding.

If I know that germs cause disease and I am careful about washing hands and good hygiene, I can avoid illnesses I would otherwise readily have even without having a full understanding of every virus and bacteria out there.

Likewise, a basic set of understanding, like you suggest (not like you have to believe it in order to go to heaven) can still be helpful in understanding other concepts such as baptism or even physical purity that the Lord requires. So, to me, it's not a useless thing to believe in the flood. Maybe this is my ignorance speaking but it seems kind of useless to believe that it didn't happen. Tell me, what is gained (in a practical, personal sense) by believing it didn't happen?

[Moksha]

Wikipedia got some facts wrong - the Pythagoreans of ancient Egypt (showing up about the time of Abraham – 2200 BC)...

The Traveler

Just don't mention this timeline to the historians - they are so fussy about those things.

[mordorbund]

My only point here is not to argue for any particular point – just that regardless of how one interprets the scriptures concerning the flood there is a chunk of stuff missing from the scriptures.

I went to my bookshelf to look up the full story in The Book of Noah (it's next to The Sealed Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith). Turns out it was a literal, fully-immersed baptism - by proxy.

[Snow]

I've used the phrase the four corners of the earth and I'm sure others have as well and I and they (thinking of my contemporaries) are fully aware the Earth is not a saltine. Consider D&C 124 (verses 3 and 128) which talks about the four corners of the earth. Did Joseph Smith (or the Lord depending on how you look at it) believe the Earth was flat?

I'm not saying they didn't believe in a flat earth (I've not significantly researched it), I just disagree that the phrase four corners of the earth is , in isolation at least, a clear statement of belief in a flat earth.

We use the phrase because it is a saying (from the Bible), not because we think the earth has four corners; however, whoever created the saying was likely thinking of four corners when they said "four corners."

[rameumptom]

A careful reading of the Book of Abraham gives a clear indication of Pythagorean thinking in ratios to all things that exist (your reference to moon and earth) and that Abraham was the one to give the Egyptians their math science.

The Traveler

There are LDS scholars that see it both ways. Several still insist that there is greater evidence of a earth-centric POV.

Also, there is no evidence of Abraham mingling with the Greeks, and especially not with Pythagoreans. He spent his time with the Chaldeans, who according to history, believed in a flat earth. The science of the Pythagoreans did not get much beyond Greece for centuries after Abraham.

Edited June 24, 2010 by rameumptom

[rameumptom]

I've used the phrase the four corners of the earth and I'm sure others have as well and I and they (thinking of my contemporaries) are fully aware the Earth is not a saltine. Consider D&C 124 (verses 3 and 128) which talks about the four corners of the earth. Did Joseph Smith (or the Lord depending on how you look at it) believe the Earth was flat?

I'm not saying they didn't believe in a flat earth (I've not significantly researched it), I just disagree that the phrase four corners of the earth is , in isolation at least, a clear statement of belief in a flat earth.

The links I gave previously show more evidence beyond the term "4 corners of the earth." We use it today (as did Joseph Smith) because it has become common phraseology due to our use of the Bible, just as we also "give up the ghost". However, ancient Hebrews did see it as literal 4 corners.

[Traveler]

There are LDS scholars that see it both ways. Several still insist that there is greater evidence of a earth-centric POV.

Also, there is no evidence of Abraham mingling with the Greeks, and especially not with Pythagoreans. He spent his time with the Chaldeans, who according to history, believed in a flat earth. The science of the Pythagoreans did not get much beyond Greece for centuries after Abraham.

A little piece of information. The person we know in history as Pythagoras was of Greek origin but for a while was an Egyptian slave. While in Egypt as a slave he became acquainted with and joined an ancient Egyptian semi religious cult from which he took his now famous name. He attempted to establish the cult or something similar among the Greeks and sold some ancient secrets for financing. The most famous secret has become known as the Pythagorean Theorem. For whatever reasons the ancient Greeks feared the Pythagorean cult and destroyed most of their documents and other items that was introduced by Pythagoras.

Very little is known about the ancient Egyptian cult because it was maintained in secret. There are very few direct references to the Pythagoreans in history but evidence of their influence and work in Egypt has baffled historians as to the origins of the highly sophisticated and accurate math paradigm that was not surpassed until the 18th century. For example the ancient Egyptians were able to calculate the ratios of colors to an accuracy that we were not able to duplicate until the invention of lasers.

Most interesting to me is the ancient Egyptian concept of creation from a “watery abyss”. The ancient Egyptians calculated the element ratios based on water – Hydrogen and Oxygen that renders a chemistry mathematical model as accurate as our modern element table. Basic to the philosophy is that there is a “ratio” between all things that exist and this philosophy is abundant in the Book of Abraham. A piece of information that was not known until over 100 years after Joseph Smith gave us the Book of Abraham.

The Traveler

[Dravin]

We use the phrase because it is a saying (from the Bible), not because we think the earth has four corners; however, whoever created the saying was likely thinking of four corners when they said "four corners."

When I say I left no stone unturned I mean I was thorough not that I literally upended every stone. Which is why I didn't assume it was literal, idiomatic speech can make things tricky. I'm quite happy to defer to the experts though instead of my own Back of the box of Cheerios level linguistic theories, they'd be more familiar with Hebrew language and cosmology than I.

[Snow]

When I say I left no stone unturned I mean I was thorough not that I literally upended every stone. Which is why I didn't assume it was literal, idiomatic speech can make things tricky. I'm quite happy to defer to the experts though instead of my own Back of the box of Cheerios level linguistic theories, they'd be more familiar with Hebrew language and cosmology than I.

Using that analogy we would conclude that "four corners" doesn't necessarily refer to all four but maybe two or three corners. :)

[Moksha]

The ancient Egyptians calculated the element ratios based on water – Hydrogen and Oxygen that renders a chemistry mathematical model as accurate as our modern element table.

The Traveler

Add a little earth, wind and fire to that water and you have something rivaling the the modern Apple computer.

[pam]

Add a little earth, wind and fire to that water and you have something rivaling the the modern Apple computer.

I would have thought adding a little earth, wind and fire would give you a little Boogie Wonderland.

[Dravin]

Using that analogy we would conclude that "four corners" doesn't necessarily refer to all four but maybe two or three corners. :)

No, it'd be 2 out of 3 corners agree Colgate is best... wait... where am I? :)

[Moksha]

wait... where am I? :)

On a thread wondering about Noah's distribution of land animals and plants throughout the world.

Wonder about the forethought Noah put into locating 14 species of finches on Galapagos Island. Do you think he knew about the coming of Darwin?

[HiJolly]

On a thread wondering about Noah's distribution of land animals and plants throughout the world.

Wonder about the forethought Noah put into locating 14 species of finches on Galapagos Island. Do you think he knew about the coming of Darwin?

Of course! He was a *prophet*, duh! All that stuff in known to those guys!

HiJolly

[Bluejay]

Hi, Moksha.

I was wondering about the distribution of plants and land animals around the world. Do you think Noah and Company made a study of compatible habitats for the various animals and plants, based on careful taxonomy and meteorological forethought?

Any attempt to attribute the distributions of plants and animals across the globe as the work of humans is doomed to failure. It's true that many animals are being transported across the globe by humans today, but there can be no way to credibly explain the current distributions of organisms as a consequence of the Flood story.

It has taken tens of thousands of scientists nearly 3 centuries to come up with a schema suitable for classifying and identifying the roughly 1,000,000 species of plants and animals that have been described to date, and this is most assuredly less than half of all species that actually exist. And, even among described species, the ecology and habitats of only a small fraction have been positively identified to any reasonable degree.

To suggest that Noah could have accomplished such a study within the timeframe required is absurd. If he had chosen to undertake such a mission, he and all his progeny would still be at it today.

On the other hand, to suggest that all the animals were able to disperse to their current ranges and adapt to the habitats they find there within 4500 years is also absurd.

There are only a couple viable explanations: (1) somebody or something (or multiple somebodies or somethings together) with near-infinite knowledge arranged things this way; or (2) hundreds of millions of years of undirected dispersal across the face of the earth by hundreds of millions of semi-discreet populations of organisms (also referred to as "biogeography").

And, there is an exceptionally great body of evidence in support of biogeography.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hi, Moksha.

Any attempt to attribute the distributions of plants and animals across the globe as the work of humans is doomed to failure. It's true that many animals are being transported across the globe by humans today, but there can be no way to credibly explain the current distributions of organisms as a consequence of the Flood story.

It has taken tens of thousands of scientists nearly 3 centuries to come up with a schema suitable for classifying and identifying the roughly 1,000,000 species of plants and animals that have been described to date, and this is most assuredly less than half of all species that actually exist. And, even among described species, the ecology and habitats of only a small fraction have been positively identified to any reasonable degree.

To suggest that Noah could have accomplished such a study within the timeframe required is absurd. If he had chosen to undertake such a mission, he and all his progeny would still be at it today.

On the other hand, to suggest that all the animals were able to disperse to their current ranges and adapt to the habitats they find there within 4500 years is also absurd.

There are only a couple viable explanations: (1) somebody or something (or multiple somebodies or somethings together) with near-infinite knowledge arranged things this way; or (2) hundreds of millions of years of undirected dispersal across the face of the earth by hundreds of millions of semi-discreet populations of organisms (also referred to as "biogeography").

And, there is an exceptionally great body of evidence in support of biogeography.

You think Noah acted alone?

[Moksha]

You think Noah acted alone?

Good point, let's not discount the ark builder behing the grassy knoll.

[Bluejay]

Hi, Snoozer.

You think Noah acted alone?

No, what I wrote was this:

If he had chosen to undertake such a mission, he and all his progeny would still be at it today.

Emphasis added.

Even if he had enlisted Japheth, Shem and Ham, and all their wives, and all their offspring throughout all generations of humanity, he still wouldn't have been able to have done it by now, let alone within the timeframe required to get everything to where it needed to be after the flood.

Ecology and taxonomy are not trivial matters.

So, no, Noah and whatever number of collaborators did not undertake a study to determine the habitat requirements of the animals on the Ark. It takes a wild imagination to pretend that the distribution of organisms today can be explained as having anything to do with a worldwide flood.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hi, Snoozer.

No, what I wrote was this:

Emphasis added.

Even if he had enlisted Japheth, Shem and Ham, and all their wives, and all their offspring throughout all generations of humanity, he still wouldn't have been able to have done it by now, let alone within the timeframe required to get everything to where it needed to be after the flood.

Ecology and taxonomy are not trivial matters.

So, no, Noah and whatever number of collaborators did not undertake a study to determine the habitat requirements of the animals on the Ark. It takes a wild imagination to pretend that the distribution of organisms today can be explained as having anything to do with a worldwide flood.

What I was implying was God. If you want to take God out of the picture, yes, I agree this is a difficult story.

[Moksha]

What I was implying was God. If you want to take God out of the picture, yes, I agree this is a difficult story.

Can you see a possibility of having both God and accomodate the "exceptionally great body of evidence in support of biogeography"?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Can you see a possibility of having both God and accomodate the "exceptionally great body of evidence in support of biogeography"?

I can see that it is possible, sure. I can't take it any further than that because I don't know God's ways or even come close to the amount of knowledge even He has about biogeography.

I was responding to a comment about how long it would take to catalog each species and location alone .... well, doesn't God already know all of that? So, that would take zero time.