Please explain the Godhead

[Vanhin]

I knew exactly what you were setting me up for. But I'm comfortable with my beliefs.

So, where did His wife come from?

Did she exist forever with Him?

I know that I have a heavenly mother, and that's it. You don't know any more than that either.

Or, is she one of His creations?

We know that God did not create our immortal spirit (intelligence), neither did He create hers.

If they existed forever together, when did they get married?

Clearly we have no record of it, but based on our scriptures, however, it would have been during their mortal experience, just like us. I have all sorts of speculation on the matter, but I'm not about to indulge in it any more at this time.

If you think that an infinite regress of gods answers your puzzle, then you are not being honest. An infinite regress of gods is just as incomprihensible to the mortal mind as an infinite God is. The same questions must be asked and answered, where did it all begin?

The big difference between the two is that an "infinite and eternal" God, who is from "everlasting to everlasting" is supported by scripture. An infinite regress of gods does not seem to enjoy such support from holy writ. Not one peep about other christs and other gods above the Most High God can be found. Only in the specualtion of men.

Both the scriptures and modern prophets and apostles agree that God is not the God of just one earth, and that Christ's Atonement is "infinite and eternal" - universal - and was done once and for all. That is the language of the scriptures, and that is what I am going to stick with until (and if) God reveals more through his chosen oracle.

And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:22-24)

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited July 3, 2010 by Vanhin

[Justice]

I knew exactly what you were setting me up for. But I'm comfortable with my beliefs.

Yes, and I'm wondering if this discussion should take place in an open forum. There are so many beliefs, because we are all at a different level of spiritual maturity. I even think God wants us each to believe different things because those beleifs comfort us. My beliefs comfort me, and your beliefs comfort you. We use the same words, just understand them differently. We both know God lives, and that Jesus Christ is His Son. Yet, we believe them differently.

As to my questions, some questions require deep and significant pondering and prayer to see that they cannot lead to a possible answer. Saying anymore would seem like I am belittling your beliefs, when it would never be my intention. I have this propensity to ask the difficult questions some people never even think of. I view it as a curse. :)

I know that I have a heavenly mother, and that's it. You don't know any more than that either.

I believe there is much more about her in scripture than most people realize. I know that she was married and sealed to the Father. This truth by itself makes other things typically believed impossible. That's just the way it is, and that's why I asked the question. We KNOW that marriage and sealing (that are ordained of God) are ordinances that MUST be performed while on "earth" in a physical tabernacle.

Jesus Christ, the Father's Only Son born of the flesh, the very Creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are, the very God of the universe, dwelt among man, as a man. Isn't that interesting? He bled, He suffered, and He died, just as if He was a man. Yet, He is spiritual offspring of the Father, infinite and eternal.

We are promised that we can become infinte and eternal through Jesus Christ.

To me it's clear.

We know that God did not create our immortal spirit (intelligence), neither did He create hers.

Our "immortal spirit" is a tangible entity, with parts and passions. It is a child of Heavenly Parents. It is not the same thing as the "intelligence" from which it was created, or born. The intelligence is infinte and forever, a spirit body created from it is eternal yet was not always a conscience. Creating these "offsprings" is the blessing, reward, work and glory of those who obtain the highest degree in the Celestial realm. If all these spirit children already exist, how can Celestial parents have children?

Heavenly Mother, like us, was born of Heavenly Parents, as offspring of a grand and glorious union of immortal and perfected Beings... as was He. As was all men and women that ever were, and ever will be. Joseph Smith said the great mystery is that God is a glorified and perfected Man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. I don't know why it is overcomplicated beyond that.

Clearly we have no record of it, but based on our scriptures, however, it would have been during their mortal experience, just like us. I have all sorts of speculation on the matter, but I'm not about to indulge in it any more at this time.

Yes, during their mortal probation.

What is a mortal probation? Is it not to "see if [man] will do whatsoever the Lord their God commands them?" If God was glorified and perfected before His mortal probation, what was the point of His mortal probation? If, at the very least, didn't He need a body? Interesting that Joseph Smith taught that the Father has a glorified and perfected physical body. I don't think it's a cooincidence.

If you think that an infinite regress of gods answers your puzzle, then you are not being honest. An infinite regress of gods is just as incomprihensible to the mortal mind as an infinite God is. The same questions must be asked and answered, where did it all begin?

Why does it always come back to "where did it all begin?" Why did it have to begin? I say it did not begin. I say it has always been this way. I can't comprehend it, but if it has not always been this way, then it would not be this way now. "God" does not change. Lucifer wanted to change things, and was denied. God knew it must happen this way. How did He know? Was He told? Was He shown? Or, has it always been this way? I believe He learned it from experience, just as we hopefully will one day.

The big difference between the two is that an "infinite and eternal" God, who is from "everlasting to everlasting" is supported by scripture. An infinite regress of gods does not seem to enjoy such support from holy writ. Not one peep about other christs and other gods above the Most High God can be found. Only in the specualtion of men.

I believe The Father is infinte and eternal, from everlating to everlasting. In fact, I know He is.

I also believe Jesus Christ is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. But, I also know that Jesus Christ, or Jehova, was a spirit offspring of Heavenly Parents.

We run into trouble when we try to project our view or interpretation of words and ideas into eternity.

The terms infinite and eternal are words we cannot understand in this state. That does not mean we should place what we don't understand on God. He has revealed many things about His character and who He is. He is a parent, meaning also, He has parents. We are intelligent enough to determine that on our own. He has shown us this through nature and all His creations. It's what He was trying to teach Adam by making him till, plant, and harvest his own food (can discuss more later if you'd like). God procreates, meaning He was born. I don't try to overcomplicate it past what is simple and makes sense.

Both the scriptures and modern prophets and apostles agree that God is not the God of just one earth, and that Christ's Atonement is "infinite and eternal" - universal - and was done once and for all. That is the language of the scriptures, and that is what I am going to stick with until (and if) God reveals more through his chosen oracle.

Again, I believe Christ's atonement is infinite and eternal. Christ created all things in this eternal round, or in this eternity. His atonement covers all things in this eternal round. Everything.

If Christ truly is the Son of God, how can His atonement apply to the Father (and Mother) when He did not exist as a spirit child yet when they were "mortal" and were in need of an atonement? They did not have spirit children until they were glorified and perfected. If Christ existed as a spirit child before their mortal probation, then He is not their offspring.

And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:22-24)

That is my favorite scripture found anywhere. It's the only scripture I asked my wife to cross-stitch and hang up for me. We are begotten sons and daughters unto God. We will be given all He has, including eternal life, the kind of life He lives. We, as a married and sealed couple, will be given the greatest gift known to man, the ability to have our own children and seek to perfect them. Our children will become our work and glory. The cycle of life will continue. Once more, if all spirit beings already exist, why is having children promised as a reward to those who are faithful to Jesus Christ? (rhetorical)

I believe we can accurately measure the past based on what God promises to the faithful in the future.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Justice

[Vanhin]

Yes, and I'm wondering if this discussion should take place in an open forum. There are so many beliefs, because we are all at a different level of spiritual maturity. I even think God wants us each to believe different things because those beliefs comfort us. My beliefs comfort me, and your beliefs comfort you. We use the same words, just understand them differently. We both know God lives, and that Jesus Christ is His Son. Yet, we believe them differently.

As to my questions, some questions require deep and significant pondering and prayer to see that they cannot lead to a possible answer. Saying anymore would seem like I am belittling your beliefs, when it would never be my intention. I have this propensity to ask the difficult questions some people never even think of. I view it as a curse. :)

I didn't think is was a difficult question. It was a predictable question.

I believe there is much more about her in scripture than most people realize. I know that she was married and sealed to the Father. This truth by itself makes other things typically believed impossible. That's just the way it is, and that's why I asked the question. We KNOW that marriage and sealing (that are ordained of God) are ordinances that MUST be performed while on "earth" in a physical tabernacle.

Which is exactly what I answered. They were married while in mortality. That doesn't prove an infinite regress of gods.

Jesus Christ, the Father's Only Son born of the flesh, the very Creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are, the very God of the universe, dwelt among man, as a man. Isn't that interesting? He bled, He suffered, and He died, just as if He was a man. Yet, He is spiritual offspring of the Father, infinite and eternal.

We are promised that we can become infinte and eternal through Jesus Christ.

To me it's clear.

I'm not sure what to answer to you here. I believe those things too.

Our "immortal spirit" is a tangible entity, with parts and passions. It is a child of Heavenly Parents. It is not the same thing as the "intelligence" from which it was created, or born. The intelligence is infinte and forever, a spirit body created from it is eternal yet was not always a conscience. Creating these "offsprings" is the blessing, reward, work and glory of those who obtain the highest degree in the Celestial realm. If all these spirit children already exist, how can Celestial parents have children?

How were you born to earthly parents if you already existed? How were you then born again as a child of Christ, if you already existed. Clearly a person can be born who already existed. You don't have any "real" basis for your claim that one can only be born if they do not exist.

Heavenly Mother, like us, was born of Heavenly Parents, as offspring of a grand and glorious union of immortal and perfected Beings... as was He.

You don't know that, and scriptures do not teach it. It is your speculation.

As was all men and women that ever were, and ever will be. Joseph Smith said the great mystery is that God is a glorified and perfected Man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. I don't know why it is overcomplicated beyond that.

God is a glorified man. I have never argued otherwise. But that alone does not prove and infinite regress of gods. If you are going to go on what Joseph Smith taught, then you must accept that God did not create the spirit of man. I'm not talking about "spirit matter" I am talking who we really are.

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man—on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon)

Yes, during their mortal probation.

It was during their mortal experience. I did not say probation. It is not a probation for everyone. Take those who die before the age of accountability, for example. We do not know anything about God's mortal experience - just that he has entered mortality, since He has a body. I have already pointed that out myself.

What is a mortal probation? Is it not to "see if [man] will do whatsoever the Lord their God commands them?" If God was glorified and perfected before His mortal probation, what was the point of His mortal probation? If, at the very least, didn't He need a body? Interesting that Joseph Smith taught that the Father has a glorified and perfected physical body. I don't think it's a cooincidence.

I do believe God entered mortality to gain a body. I'm not sure what you are arguing again, since I believe that. That does not prove an infinite regress of gods.

Why does it always come back to "where did it all begin?" Why did it have to begin? I say it did not begin. I say it has always been this way. I can't comprehend it, but if it has not always been this way, then it would not be this way now. "God" does not change. Lucifer wanted to change things, and was denied. God knew it must happen this way. How did He know? Was He told? Was He shown? Or, has it always been this way? I believe He learned it from experience, just as we hopefully will one day.

I don't know, why did you bring it up by asking "Where did God's wife come from, if there is no infinite regress of gods?" That's the same question as "Where did it all begin?" That's what I was trying to point out to you. Why is it easier for you to believe that there is an infinite regress of gods (with no beginning), but you cannot believe the words of the scripture that say God is infinite?

I believe The Father is infinte and eternal, from everlating to everlasting. In fact, I know He is.

I also believe Jesus Christ is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. But, I also know that Jesus Christ, or Jehova, was a spirit offspring of Heavenly Parents.

We run into trouble when we try to project our view or interpretation of words and ideas into eternity.

The terms infinite and eternal are words we cannot understand in this state.

But... you don't have any trouble applying the right definition for "infinite" when it comes to the regress of gods.

That does not mean we should place what we don't understand on God. He has revealed many things about His character and who He is. He is a parent, meaning also, He has parents. We are intelligent enough to determine that on our own. He has shown us this through nature and all His creations. It's what He was trying to teach Adam by making him till, plant, and harvest his own food (can discuss more later if you'd like). God procreates, meaning He was born. I don't try to overcomplicate it past what is simple and makes sense.

We do not know from any canonized "revelations" that God has parents. This is speculation, and is not in harmony with the scriptures.

What the story of Adam teaches us, is that God was first, and the rest of the "generations" came after. There is no mention of Adam's parents. His body was formed from the dust of the earth, according to scriptures, and was the first man on a given earth. Each creation is a type of the one eternal round we call eternity.

God is the universal Adam and his wife the universal Eve of all mankind. That's what it teaches us.

Again, I believe Christ's atonement is infinite and eternal. Christ created all things in this eternal round, or in this eternity. His atonement covers all things in this eternal round. Everything.

Really, so you will only be sealed to your spouse for all of "this" eternity? How come we never have any trouble understanding what eternity means in conjunction with the covenants we make? It means just as it appears to mean, forever and ever and ever...without end. Otherwise, there is an end.

If Christ truly is the Son of God, how can His atonement apply to the Father (and Mother) when He did not exist as a spirit child yet when they were "mortal" and were in need of an atonement? They did not have spirit children until they were glorified and perfected. If Christ existed as a spirit child before their mortal probation, then He is not their offspring.

How did His atonement apply to anyone before He actually performed it. Like Adam, for example, and the brother of Jared, who was redeemed from the fall? I'll tell you how. It is infinite and eternal. There are no bounds to it, and was completed once and for all, and was in effect before it was performed.

The intelligence who is Jehovah, existed before the covenant that made Him the Only Begotten... before He was the Firstborn of all of God's children.

But I don't know that the atonement needed to apply to the Father. He was, after all, God. He had power over life and death, and could give up his life and take it back again... And further, the intelligence who became the Only Begotten Son was witness to this event, which allowed Him to make the following statement about power over death:

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19)

How did Christ see the Father do similar things (heal the sick, raise the dead), if he did not exist during the Father's mortal experience?

Joseph Smith taught that God found himself among the intelligences, and made a plan that allowed all to be exalted with himself, because He was more intelligent. There was another who was like unto God, this is who became the Firstborn. In the beginning we were all there with God (D&C 93:29), before the pact was made.

This does not mean that the most intelligent being had already received the "fullness". Obviously He did not yet have a body. But still he was God, and possessed the power to organize matter and so forth. Just like the pre-mortal Christ did.

And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:22-24)

That is my favorite scripture found anywhere. It's the only scripture I asked my wife to cross-stitch and hang up for me. We are begotten sons and daughters unto God. We will be given all He has, including eternal life, the kind of life He lives. We, as a married and sealed couple, will be given the greatest gift known to man, the ability to have our own children and seek to perfect them. Our children will become our work and glory. The cycle of life will continue. Once more, if all spirit beings already exist, why is having children promised as a reward to those who are faithful to Jesus Christ? (rhetorical)

I believe we can accurately measure the past based on what God promises to the faithful in the future.

That quote is saying that all the worlds are created by Christ, and that through Christ's atonement, the inhabitants of the worlds become "begotten" sons and daughters unto God. The exalted, will "bear" the souls of men, as the scriptures promise, and continue the work of the Father, thereby glorifying his name. But we will not be creating something out of nothing.

I've already shown you that non-existence is not a prerequisite for being born. You yourself are an example of that.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited July 4, 2010 by Vanhin

[GADBabaganoosh]

Unity - Working in tandem. Anything the other one would do or say is what any of the others would do or say. What Christ says is what the Father would say. What the Holy Ghost says is what Christ or the Father would say, and vice versa. But they do the will of the father, but anything they say or do is what the father would do, because they are in sync. Its hard to describe. Simply put, they are unified in mind and heart for the salvation of souls. They are still 3 different beings, but meshed together in one purpose. Working as a team towards the same goal.

[Justice]

You ask a lot of good questions. I think these discussions always go wrong when too much is discussed at once. And, holy cow, there's a lot in this one. I'll try to reduce it to a few.

I didn't think is was a difficult question.

I don't know, I think questions where no answer is given, or where no answer is known to exist, are difficult questions. :)

Your quote from Joseph Smith is your most compelling argument. It's much like many topics, especially topics that are new, as this was to Joseph Smith. Like "hell" there are specific and general meanings to "spirit of man." Some scripture and GAs use hell in one way, or in a way that other scripture authors and GAs would never use it. "Spirit of man" has been used to describe both the "conscience individual composing a spirit-made body," and also it has been used to describe the "stuff" or material used to make up that body that is specifically called intelligence. Joseph Smith is clearly making a distinction between these two, but tends to call them the same thing. It is the last paragraph where he talks about "enlargement" that I'm talking about.

Let's discuss a human embryo, when is it ready to be born? It is a "man" before it is born, but it is not a man until it is "enlarged" and born. From one perspective it was a man all along, from another it becomes a man once it is born. I believe things that are physical teach of things that are spiritual. I believe this applies to much more than most realize.

The physical matter that makes up a man's body is called element, and exists forever; it cannot be created nor destroyed. Man's body will eventually be made from it. But, the conscience of man does not exist until a "union" takes place.

I don't think enough stress is placed on the fact that God has a wife and children, or that those who will become Celestial will have children.

So, I sympathize that we have always existed, and that we cannot be created nor made, yet we are children. Interesting how the physical world offers a possible solution... one that we can understand.

How were you born to earthly parents if you already existed? How were you then born again as a child of Christ, if you already existed. Clearly a person can be born who already existed. You don't have any "real" basis for your claim that one can only be born if they do not exist.

Again, this is another language difficulty, where a word can mean different things. Birth and death are very different when you look at them through the other side of the veil, aren't they? They may even be considered opposite. So, we add difficulty by projecting our definitions on these words through the veil.

As I said, I turn to the physical world to try to understand the spiritual. Our bodies are born, yet the elements already existed. That sounds like a good comparison to intelligence and sprit offspring to me. I use physical matter to understand intelligence, and a man who has been born to understand a spirit body. It's the in-between that we really know little about. Again, I use the embryo period of a man's physical body, it's enlarging and growing, to help me see how God might have spiritual offspring, without those spirit offspring being called "creations."

Friend to Friend: How Life Began LDS.org - Friend Article - Friend to Friend: How Life Began

Mark E. Petersen

Since we are His spiritual offspring, as the apostle Paul said, He did not create us in the same way He did other life forms.

Gifts and Talents LDS.org - New Era Article - Gifts and Talents

Henry D. Taylor

My mission president, B. H. Roberts, asked, “Is it a strange and blasphemous doctrine, then, to hold that men at the last shall rise to the dignity that the Father has attained: Is it ‘heathenish’ to believe that the offspring shall ultimately be what the parent is? He is coeternal and coexistent with God, and existed as an intelligence before becoming a spiritual offspring of a Heavenly Father.

I added the bold.

The Great Plan of Our God LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Great Plan of Our God

L. Tom Perry

We are the literal spiritual offspring of our Heavenly Father.

God is a glorified man. I have never argued otherwise. But that alone does not prove and infinite regress of gods. If you are going to go on what Joseph Smith taught, then you must accept that God did not create the spirit of man. I'm not talking about "spirit matter" I am talking who we really are.

God is a glorified man presupposes that He was once not glorified, but yet was man before He was glorified. It's in the language. No revalation is needed on the matter. By simply revealing that statement tells us certain things, while other things can no longer be true.

God did not create the spirit of man must be finished by saying "the same way He created other living things." It's a true statement, because we are offspring, not creations... yet in the general term, He did create us. Again with the language difficulty. To many Christians "create" and "children" are synonomous terms, and in no way relates to offspring, when speaking of our creation. "We were born of Heavenly Parents." Again, that revealed statement tells us that before we became offspring of those Parents that we were previously something different. Made of the same material, but different, just like the physical world shows us.

As to exactly what that difference is goes back to the transition between intelligence and spirit offspring. I don't know what that difference is, other than spirit offspring is intelligence that has been enlarged... even born (is my preferred word).

It was during their mortal experience. I did not say probation. It is not a probation for everyone. Take those who die before the age of accountability, for example. We do not know anything about God's mortal experience - just that he has entered mortality, since He has a body. I have already pointed that out myself.

Wasn't it a probation for Christ, the greatest of us all? Because it does not say what it was like for Him does not mean it was not a probation for Him, just as much as you telling me it does not mean it was.

I agree, we do not know any more than He once dwelt as a man on an earth like like this one. All that means is He was born and has a physical body, which was needed for Him to become glorified and perfected.

Even though it has not been revealed in more words, doesn't that sound familiar? What is earth life like? What is man like before earth life and after? Where is the logic in NOT applying what we do know?

I don't know, why did you bring it up by asking "Where did God's wife come from, if there is no infinite regress of gods?" That's the same question as "Where did it all begin?" That's what I was trying to point out to you. Why is it easier for you to believe that there is an infinite regress of gods (with no beginning), but you cannot believe the words of the scripture that say God is infinite?

That's an unfair statement. I just said that we shouldn't project "infinite" and "eternal" past the veil based of our limited understanding, ESPECIALLY when we can't understand those things. Yet, you do this very thing to make it look like my beliefs are not scriptural. If you keep doing that this discussion can't go very far.

By saying God is not infinite and eternal because He was born of Heavenly Parents could be projecting a thought through veil that only exists here. We KNOW we are spiritual offspring of Heavenly Parents, and we KNOW we can become infinite and eternal through Christ. So, something has to give.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Justice

[Vanhin]

Justice,

My point, without the long drawn-out speculative explanations is simply this. We do not know. I think it has been a big disservice to the cause of our religion to constantly speculate so publicly about things beyond what is binding doctrine, or even worse, teach things as doctrine that even current general authorities and the president of the Church would answer "We do not know!" to. I have heard it with my own ears when the question was asked, "Does God have a Father?" The answer is "We do not know."

For whatever the reasons are for God to say the things that He has, he has been quite clear on the point that there is not beginning of days or end of years to him. Even if an infinite regress of gods is the reality, it has not been revealed to the world, and we should be content to describe God the way he has described himself and just leave it at that. He is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God and framer of the universe.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Justice]

I was responding to what had already been said, even by you. I agree, as I said previously, that discussions like this are better held in private.

When I see someone expressing ideas where beliefs and understandings are projected through the veil I like to get involved in the discussion to bring up the point you just made. I like for people to see that there are other possibilities.

In any case, thank you for the discussion.

[Vanhin]

Me too justice. I have been trying to show that without further light and knowledge on the matter, an alternate understanding is possible, that seems to me to more readily agree with the definitive statements of God's character in the scriptures.

I don't mind criticism from the enemies of the Church about our very peculiar doctrines. But when they approach us about matters that are not established doctrines, we don't have to try to prove them. We can agree with them that God is God, from everlasting to everlasting, because that is the language of our scriptures. If there is more profound meaning to those statements than meet the eye, then we shall surely know them when God makes them manifest to us through the process that makes the binding. Then we are bound to teach them and even defend them.

I enjoy our conversations as well. Thank you.

Regards,

Vanhin

[mordorbund]

Unity - Working in tandem. Anything the other one would do or say is what any of the others would do or say. What Christ says is what the Father would say. What the Holy Ghost says is what Christ or the Father would say, and vice versa. But they do the will of the father, but anything they say or do is what the father would do, because they are in sync. Its hard to describe. Simply put, they are unified in mind and heart for the salvation of souls. They are still 3 different beings, but meshed together in one purpose. Working as a team towards the same goal.

What happens when I give up my will to the Father and start working for the salvation of souls? If I have the same heart and mind as the other three do I join the Godhead? Or is there some other attribute/qualification that I'm missing?

[GADBabaganoosh]

You are Zion. Of one heart and mind. (i mean you still have your own.) but you are unified with them by your own free will. You say "give up" as if its something you lose and will never recieve, perhaps a prisoner to God's will. God does not force anyone. He invites. You can, at some point, become like Christ, who is in the image of his father (but is not his father) and we would be like Christ (because we are told to.) When we follow Christs example we are following God's example. As you continue to serve others, serving God, and learn to love all of God's children you become closer to God, and Christ, and eventually you become more and more like him. One can only do this by their own free will. Their own choice. The further you do this, the further you are aligned with God's will and the further you become unfied with him because of it. And you are still yourself. As Christ is still himself and the Holy Ghost is still himself. As we become more like God, well, we've met the goal haven't we? Thats the be all end all, is to become like him. And the path is set, through Christ. My head runs in circles and i hope this makes some kind of sense.

Edited July 4, 2010 by GADBabaganoosh

[mordorbund]

You are Zion. Of one heart and mind. (i mean you still have your own.) but you are unified with them by your own free will. You say "give up" as if its something you lose and will never recieve, perhaps a prisoner to God's will. God does not force anyone. He invites. You can, at some point, become like Christ, who is in the image of his father (but is not his father) and we would be like Christ (because we are told to.) When we follow Christs example we are following God's example. As you continue to serve others, serving God, and learn to love all of God's children you become closer to God, and Christ, and eventually you become more and more like him. One can only do this by their own free will. Their own choice. The further you do this, the further you are aligned with God's will and the further you become unfied with him because of it. And you are still yourself. As Christ is still himself and the Holy Ghost is still himself. As we become more like God, well, we've met the goal haven't we? Thats the be all end all, is to become like him. And the path is set, through Christ. My head runs in circles and i hope this makes some kind of sense.

I think we're saying the same things, but using different phraseology. My point with "give up" is that I make a choice to submit my will to the Father's until the two wills align. My will is not taken from me, but is given willingly as a sacrifice.

Let's say I reach this Zion stage. Am I then a member of the Godhead? (obviously no, so) What precludes me from it? What attributes/qualities make them different from me (including celestialized, glorified me)?

[Hemidakota]

So, where did His wife come from?

Did she exist forever with Him?

Or, is she one of His creations?

If they existed forever together, when did they get married?

If she is His creation (because He couldn't have children without a wife) how can that be explained?

Good point. This is what I term - educational reasoning - Justice.

[My opinion] Perhaps, only a handful of members today really know the creation and the universe for what it is but for the church, it is not given as knowledge to know anything outside of our own creation. Nor do I believe this will be given in the millennium since it is only the terrestrial realm. Knowledge like this is only reserve for those who will inherit or reside in the celestial state. Best to leave it when you are in the same company of those who share this knowledge.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

I think we're saying the same things, but using different phraseology. My point with "give up" is that I make a choice to submit my will to the Father's until the two wills align. My will is not taken from me, but is given willingly as a sacrifice.

Let's say I reach this Zion stage. Am I then a member of the Godhead? (obviously no, so) What precludes me from it? What attributes/qualities make them different from me (including celestialized, glorified me)?

Giving HONOR to GOD is the same term as surrendering our will to the FATHER.

[GADBabaganoosh]

Part of the Godhead? No, not necessarily, that's God's organization. Like God? yes. A God? Perhaps. No one will become such unless they align themselves with God so fully, and so completely buy their own free will. Don't quote me, but to my understanding, this is how it will be. I am not a prophet.

[skippy740]

Doctrine and Covenants 130

D&C 130:22

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

This is the Godhead.

(And no, I didn't read the entire thread. I just noticed that this verse was never mentioned and so I wanted to contribute it.)

[GADBabaganoosh]

Also, there are many scriptures that point to the unity of the Godhead through all the scriptures (Bible, BofM, D&C, PofGP) and frankly i'm too lazy to pick them out. Anyone is completely welcome to correct me if I've said anything out of harmony with the teachings of the prophets, or add anything.

[Hemidakota]

It really doesn't matter when a person still refuses to consider the evidence and give this to prayer. We simply need to move on. But thanks...

[GADBabaganoosh]

The be all end all. Especially if you've exhausted all options, trying to hear what you want to, instead of what IS. Sometimes, there is only so much we can say. Sometimes God has the final say. And by sometimes, I mean all the time.

[mordorbund]

One of many things that I find interesting about the Godhead is that while they enjoy a union of wills and mind, they perform different functions and each has a different revealed form. The Father has always been flesh and bone (and spirit), which we are told is one of the motivations that drove us to our probations. The Holy Ghost is a spirit, and must remain so or else he "cannot dwell in us." And the Son has enjoyed both forms, and also left us a record of his own mortal period.

From this I gather a few ideas (you are free to disagree with me if you see differently). 1) Although many attributes serve as a prerequisite to being in the Godhead (including including justice, mercy, knowledge, etc), a mortal experience (including a mortal body) is not one of them. 2) Just being in the Godhead does not give you a free pass to bypass probation to godhood (this is assuming that the Holy Ghost will at some point receive a body just as the Son did) (and just to define the way I'm using the term, godhood refers to receiving the perfections and rewards that come in a post-mortal period. So while the Holy Ghost is rightly called God, I view this as having the perfections the Godhead is known for, and membership in the Godhead. It is a different title than the one given to Abraham in his exaltation).

Some of the attributes the Godhead has are the very ones that we need to develop for exaltation. Among these are unity, mercy, constancy, truth, equity, love, knowledge, and justice. But these attributes alone are not the only criteria for being God (although they put one well on the way of being a god).

Some additional attributes that the Godhead has that will be granted to an individual as (s)he progresses from grace to grace are the following: more knowledge (until receiving omniscience), power and judgement over your dominions (including omnipotence). But even these attributes do not grant admission into the Godhead*.

As someone quoted earlier, the Godhead has been defined as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is one eternal God without end. I take that final statement to mean that this is the Godhead we were subject to "in the beginning", and the very Godhead that we will be under for all eternity. Even after the Holy Ghost receives a body, and after the last babe is resurrected.

So the Godhead is not defined by duration (since we were all there in the Grand Council, and we'll all still exist in a kingdom later). It is not defined by specific qualities (since many will gain those qualities - and many probably already had them (not accountable)). And it is not defined by powers/priveleges granted (since those will be granted to all the faithful). It is defined by 3 beings who already had the specific qualities and accepting the calling/foreordination to serve in their respective roles forever (here am I, send me), and were granted the powers necessary to act in their callings. So it is those 3 and no more simply by definition (in my mind, the Father could just as well had 5 or 6).

So the Godhead is ultimately a presidency over the godhood quorum (comprised of like individuals but these have all passed through mortality and gained a body), who also preside over prospective gods. And as the Supreme Presidency, they will also preside over a kingdom of glory, but I imagine that there is another structure in place (like how a member of the First Presidency ultimately presides over any quorum meeting, but there is an order in place so it could run smoothly even in his absence).

*I do not think omnipresence is really a requirement of anyone in the Godhead, including the Holy Ghost - not without a limited definition of omnipresence.

[coyotemoon722]

I'm not reading through the pages of text to see if this has been mentioned yet, but when it refers to God the Father and God the Son being "one" it refers to them being singular in purpose.

Quoting from John 17:21-22:

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou has sent me.

And the glory which though gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.

So you see, Jesus himself said that he wished for all of God's children to be united as one, as He and the Father are united as one in purpose.

No offense to anyone here, but I'm really surprised this notion hasn't caught on with other Christian faiths. It's pretty spelled out in the scriptures.

Edited July 6, 2010 by coyotemoon722

[Hemidakota]

I suspect, being splinter groups from a past universal church, which arose out of the ashes of the old Roman Empire, whom I used to belong too :), without having a living Prophet to lead them and correct the false pretense of men, they still use the same Trinity belief in one form or another (altering the original). When we are corrected by a living prophet or by the Savior directly, we can be edified of what constitutes the Godhead.

[Hemidakota]

*I do not think omnipresence is really a requirement of anyone in the Godhead, including the Holy Ghost - not without a limited definition of omnipresence.

To answer the definition of OMNIPRESENCE, Joseph Smith answered this in a sermon in 1843.

James Burgess recorded a sermon of the Prophet delivered on 9 July 1843 in which Joseph explains how God can be both omnipresent and at the same time "a personage of tabernacle." "What part of God is omnipresent?" Joseph asked. He responded: "It is the Spirit of God which proceeds from him; consequently, God is in the four winds of heaven, and when man receives intelligence is it not by the Spirit of God?" (Ibid., 230-31, spelling and punctuation corrected.) One is able to better appreciate Joseph Smith's humility before the Almighty in a prayer offered on 23 August 1842:

O, thou who seeth and knoweth the hearts of all men; thou eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Jehovah, God; thou Elohim, that sitteth, as saith the Psalmist, enthroned in heaven; look down upon thy servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of thy Son Jesus Christ, to a greater degree than thy servant ever yet has enjoyed, be conferred upon him, even the faith of Elijah; and let the lamp of eternal life be lit up in his heart, never to be taken away. And let the words of eternal life be poured upon the soul of thy servant, that he may know thy will, thy statutes, and thy commandments, and thy judgments to do them. (Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, 252-53, spelling and punctuation corrected.)

In 1842, just two years before his death, the Prophet explained concerning the Great God: "The past, the present, and the future were and are, with Him, one eternal now." (History of the Church 4:597.) Simply because God has not always been God, it need not follow that he is not now a possessor of that fulness of light, truth, and glory that constitute him as infinite.

In the Lectures on Faith, God is described as being the perfect and infinite embodiment of every good attribute and virtue. For example, he is said to possess a fulness of knowledge, faith or power, justice, judgment, mercy, and truth. Indeed, the lectures explain that unless the Saint does know and acknowledge that God possesses these attributes in perfection he cannot exercise faith in him unto life and salvation (see Lectures on Faith, 4:1-19). But though God is absolute in the sense that he embodies and possesses the perfections of Deity, he is not absolute or transcendent in the classical creedal sense--in the sense that he is unapproachable, is "the wholly other," beyond the reach or comprehension of finite man. Rather, the God described in the Lectures on Faith, like the God spoken of a decade later in the King Follett Sermon, is one who can be known and understood, who can be approached and seen, even by mortal man.

Lecture 2 declares:

Let us here observe that after any portion of the human family are made acquainted with the important fact that there is a God, who has created and does uphold all things, the extent of their knowledge respecting his character and glory will depend upon their diligence and faithfulness in seeking after him, until, like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they shall obtain faith in God, and power with him to behold him face to face. (4:55)

Lecture 5 teaches that man can become a joint heir, a coinheritor with Christ to all that the Father has; further, he can, through the Spirit, become one with the Father and the Son, be "transformed into the same image or likeness" of "him who fills all in all." Thus, "as the Son partakes of the fullness of the Father through the Spirit, so the saints are, by the same Spirit, to be partakers of the same fullness, to enjoy the same glory; for as the Father and the Son are one, so, in like manner, the saints are to be one in them" (5:2-3). In short, the God of the Lectures on Faith is one who desires to glorify his children and make them even as he is.

(Credit: BYU Studies, vol. 29 (1989)

[Hemidakota]

I'm not reading through the pages of text to see if this has been mentioned yet, but when it refers to God the Father and God the Son being "one" it refers to them being singular in purpose.

Quoting from John 17:21-22:

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou has sent me.

And the glory which though gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.

So you see, Jesus himself said that he wished for all of God's children to be united as one, as He and the Father are united as one in purpose.

No offense to anyone here, but I'm really surprised this notion hasn't caught on with other Christian faiths. It's pretty spelled out in the scriptures.

I suspect, being splinter groups from a past universal church, which arose out of the ashes of the old Roman Empire, whom I used to belong too , without having a living Prophet to lead them and correct the false pretense of men, they still use the same Trinity belief in one form or another (altering the original). When we are corrected by a living prophet or by the Savior directly, we can be edified of what constitutes the Godhead.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation

Though most people who believe the Bible accept the idea of a Godhead composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, Joseph Smith revealed an understanding of the Godhead that differed from the views found in the creeds of his day. The main Christian sects of the nineteenth century taught of “one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons: nor dividing the Substance” and of “one only living and true God, … a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible.” 4 Although other churches and individuals held that the Father and the Son are separate entities, 5 Joseph Smith uniquely taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct personages, with the Father and the Son having bodies of “flesh and bones as tangible as man’s,” and with the Holy Ghost being a “personage of Spirit.” (D&C 130:22.) 6

[Blackmarch]

I'm aware of the flame war that this thread could potentially start, so I'm asking that only Latter-day Saints post and that they remain respectful of people of all faiths (including their own).

I've seen many threads where a pos(t)er will ask us to explain a Bible verse (usually in Isaiah) and it ends in an argument about whether the Trinity is bogus and how presumptuous we are to think we can become gods. I have seen in these threads that not every Christian believes the same thing (thanks PrisonChaplain for your many useful posts), and it got me wondering if we do too.

(This is the last part of the intro I promise). I've observed that there are 7 statements that most Christians (including LDS) believe regarding God (I know there's some who don't believe 4-6, but we do so I'm keeping them :)):

• The Father is God
• The Son is God
• The Holy Ghost is God
• The Father is not the Son; nor is the Son the Father
• The Son is not the Holy Ghost; nor is the Holy Ghost the Son
• The Holy Ghost is not the Father; nor is the Father the Holy Ghost
• God is one

How do you reconcile the 7th statement with the other 6? What does that mean to you? What does your answer mean for God's children?

- It's a term of unity. Rather than a physical term (IE they are the same person/being/entity), it's a statement of how they Believe, act, intent, and their relationship.

[mordorbund]

To answer the definition of OMNIPRESENCE, Joseph Smith answered this in a sermon in 1843.

James Burgess recorded a sermon of the Prophet delivered on 9 July 1843 in which Joseph explains how God can be both omnipresent and at the same time "a personage of tabernacle." "What part of God is omnipresent?" Joseph asked. He responded: "It is the Spirit of God which proceeds from him; consequently, God is in the four winds of heaven, and when man receives intelligence is it not by the Spirit of God?" (Ibid., 230-31, spelling and punctuation corrected.)

So the Spirit of God is literally everywhere, and by extension, the Godhead? The Spirit is in my water glass and my desk? Or (my thoughts here) is he really saying the Spirit's influence is everywhere? I think most scriptures applied to omnipresence are really testifying that God observes everything and can be felt anywhere - not that he is at Stake Conference and the bar down the street at the same time.

One is able to better appreciate Joseph Smith's humility before the Almighty in a prayer offered on 23 August 1842:

O, thou who seeth and knoweth the hearts of all men; thou eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Jehovah, God; thou Elohim, that sitteth, as saith the Psalmist, enthroned in heaven; look down upon thy servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of thy Son Jesus Christ, to a greater degree than thy servant ever yet has enjoyed, be conferred upon him, even the faith of Elijah; and let the lamp of eternal life be lit up in his heart, never to be taken away. And let the words of eternal life be poured upon the soul of thy servant, that he may know thy will, thy statutes, and thy commandments, and thy judgments to do them. (Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, 252-53, spelling and punctuation corrected.)

Gotta admit, I'm stumped as to why the Prophet would use the word omnipresent here.

In 1842, just two years before his death, the Prophet explained concerning the Great God: "The past, the present, and the future were and are, with Him, one eternal now." (History of the Church 4:597.)

This is an argument for omniscience, not omnipresence.

In the Lectures on Faith, God is described as being the perfect and infinite embodiment of every good attribute and virtue. For example, he is said to possess a fulness of knowledge, faith or power, justice, judgment, mercy, and truth. Indeed, the lectures explain that unless the Saint does know and acknowledge that God possesses these attributes in perfection he cannot exercise faith in him unto life and salvation (see Lectures on Faith, 4:1-19).

I was referring to many of the divine attributes listed in the LoF when I posted earlier. While it includes both power and knowledge as godly requirements (or else we could not have faith in him) presence is absent. This implies that we can still have faith in a God who is not omnipresent.