Please explain the Godhead

[Vanhin]

mordorbund,

President Monson (while still a counselor in the First Presidency) said the following:

"God Himself is a soul, composed of a spirit and of a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man’s. He is a resurrected, glorified, exalted, omniscient, omnipotent person and is omnipresent in spirit and power and influence, the ruler of the heavens and the earth and all things therein." (LDS.org - Liahona Article - An Invitation to Exaltation)

While its just a simple nuance, it is notable that "spirit" is not capitalized in conjunction with omnipresence - perhaps to point out that it is not a personal omnipresence by the Holy Ghost, but one of influence.

When we all are able to observe General Conference throughout the world in our meeting places and homes, it may seem unremarkable to a generation acquainted with the technology of our day, but to ancient generations, our feat would be nothing short miraculous. It would be a display of omnipresence, of which workings, the world would know nothing about.

There is an influence, or power, that proceeds forth from the Father through His Son, that gives life and light to all things, and is the law by which all things are governed in heaven and on earth. One of its many manifestations to us, is conscience. It is the light of truth, or the light of Christ, which is also sometimes referred to in scripture as simply truth, spirit, and intelligence. It is light - perhaps more than metaphorically.

When we consider electromagnetic radiation in the physical world, some of it radiates in wavelengths outside the spectrum of visible light. We don't see it, but it is everywhere, and we have learned to utilize that unseen radiation to broadcast messages to more than one place at a time. Surely the Creator, who is both omniscient and omnipotent, knows and is able to be omnipresent in spirit, power, and influence in order to accomplish his purposes.

I love the scriptures. Check this out.

The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him. Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.

...

And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things. Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will. (D&C 88:49-50, 67-68)

Regards,

Vanhin

[GADBabaganoosh]

I don't think one can be IN the Godhead, perse, just like one can't straight up claim they are in the bishopric. God is a God of order after all. One can become LIKE God, as for what happens after that, we just don't really know too much. Some has been said, but I'm not going to go into it.

[Hemidakota]

So the Spirit of God is literally everywhere, and by extension, the Godhead? The Spirit is in my water glass and my desk? Or (my thoughts here) is he really saying the Spirit's influence is everywhere? I think most scriptures applied to omnipresence are really testifying that God observes everything and can be felt anywhere - not that he is at Stake Conference and the bar down the street at the same time.

Gotta admit, I'm stumped as to why the Prophet would use the word omnipresent here.

This is an argument for omniscience, not omnipresence.

I was referring to many of the divine attributes listed in the LoF when I posted earlier. While it includes both power and knowledge as godly requirements (or else we could not have faith in him) presence is absent. This implies that we can still have faith in a God who is not omnipresent.

Mordorbund, you have great points. I apologized. It can be hard at times in digesting the earlier brethren thoughts on specific subjects. Using scriptures based on this principle, I turned to D&C 88:41 and it states:

"He is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever." (D. & C. 88:41)

Some questions here…how is this possible? How can GOD be omnipresent in HIS creation when we know with surety, HE is a immortal and glorified Being? One scripture that stumped the universal church of the past and yet, explaining HIS presence was the Book of Acts. It states:

"In him we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:28)

We do know today, based on Acts quote, sectarian world attempts to justify its false creeds which describe Deity as a vague, ethereal, immaterial essence which fills the immensity of space and is everywhere and nowhere in particular present. More-or-less, a floating mass of energy of intelligent light. We know that GOD is the Creator; the power, the light, our influence, and HIS spirit that goes forth from HIS being to fill all immensity of creation. I believe the change of this simple truth may have come from the apostates of that day. Paul strongly opposed this false notion about GOD’s presence and Being and stated this to the Romans:

"...changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever." (Romans 1:25)

I do believe GOD is an immanent Being, meaning, that the light of Christ shines forth from him to fill all space. In the same Doctrine and Covenant section explains it all:

"…light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space — The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things." (D. & C. 88:12-13)

Now what astrophysics energetic particle called today that could fill the immensity of space? But I believe there is something even beyond this particle reaching in all direction of our known universe and the GOD bearing intelligence it does carry. I can say, our science gives it a different name from what our scriptures call the “Light OF Christ”.

You stated, is it possible to have faith without HIS omnipresence, I cannot fathom any place within HIS creation not having omnipresence feelings of HIM. If it was, we are sitting in outer darkness. My opinion, there is no presence of the FATHER in this sphere, which is completely outside of all none creation. It is not the same as chaos as most would gladly tell you. It is part of our essence to have this showering affect called the Light of Christ on a continues basis.

[Hemidakota]

I don't think one can be IN the Godhead, perse, just like one can't straight up claim they are in the bishopric. God is a God of order after all. One can become LIKE God, as for what happens after that, we just don't really know too much. Some has been said, but I'm not going to go into it.

?????????

[mordorbund]

Thanks Vahnin and Hemidakota for your responses.

I dug around a little bit and found out there are multiple definitions of omnipresence. From Encarta:

- always present everywhere: continuously and simultaneously present throughout the whole of creation

- found everywhere: present or seemingly present all the time or everywhere

I disagree with applying this definition to God (except the "seemingly present" part). But it looks like philosophers and theologians have rejected this definition as well.

God is in all things by his power, inasmuch as all things are subject to his power; he is by his presence in all things, inasmuch as all things are bare and open to his eyes; he is in all things by his essence, inasmuch as he is present to all as the cause of their being” (Summa Theologica I, 8, 3)

The first clause says he is omnipresent through omnipotence. The second says he is omnipotent through his omniscience. The third says he is omnipresent through what we know to be the Light of Christ, or spirit (to use terms that you each used). This is a definition I can subscribe to. Edited July 7, 2010 by mordorbund

[Traveler]

I'm aware of the flame war that this thread could potentially start, so I'm asking that only Latter-day Saints post and that they remain respectful of people of all faiths (including their own).

I've seen many threads where a pos(t)er will ask us to explain a Bible verse (usually in Isaiah) and it ends in an argument about whether the Trinity is bogus and how presumptuous we are to think we can become gods. I have seen in these threads that not every Christian believes the same thing (thanks PrisonChaplain for your many useful posts), and it got me wondering if we do too.

(This is the last part of the intro I promise). I've observed that there are 7 statements that most Christians (including LDS) believe regarding God (I know there's some who don't believe 4-6, but we do so I'm keeping them :)):

• The Father is God
• The Son is God
• The Holy Ghost is God
• The Father is not the Son; nor is the Son the Father
• The Son is not the Holy Ghost; nor is the Holy Ghost the Son
• The Holy Ghost is not the Father; nor is the Father the Holy Ghost
• God is one

How do you reconcile the 7th statement with the other 6? What does that mean to you? What does your answer mean for God's children?

The ancient Hebrew from which "one" is translated in reference to G-d is "ehad". Ehad in such context means unity and is also use to describe the marriage of a man and a women being "one" flesh. Ancient Hebrew also has another word that is translated into English as "one" and that word is "yhead". Yhead means a singular individual.

Yhead is never used in ancient Hebrew in any context or reference to G-d. The concept of monotheism based on sacred ancient scripture is a fabrication post ancient scripture.

The Traveler

[HiJolly]

Thanks Vahnin and Hemidakota for your responses.

I dug around a little bit and found out there are multiple definitions of omnipresence. From Encarta:

- always present everywhere: continuously and simultaneously present throughout the whole of creation

- found everywhere: present or seemingly present all the time or everywhere

I disagree with applying this definition to God (except the "seemingly present" part). But it looks like philosophers and theologians have rejected this definition as well.

God is in all things by his power, inasmuch as all things are subject to his power; he is by his presence in all things, inasmuch as all things are bare and open to his eyes; he is in all things by his essence, inasmuch as he is present to all as the cause of their being” (Summa Theologica I, 8, 3)

The first clause says he is omnipresent through omnipotent. The second says he is omnipotent through his omniscience. The third says he is omnipresent through what we know to be the Light of Christ, or spirit (to use terms that you each used). This is a definition I can subscribe to.

Of course as a panenthiest myself, I think it's very simply true that God is omnipresent.

For a more robust and standard LDS explanation for how God is Omnipresent, I recommend reading Hyrum Andrus' excellent book Amazon.com: God, Man and the Universe, Volume 1, Foundations of the Millenial

HiJolly

[Dove]

I like what Vahnin posted earlier:

For me it brings to new light the phrase "they will know, even as they are known". We will enjoy the same mind that the Father and the Son have. We will have the same concern for others that they (the Godhead) have for us.

What I mean by experiential omniscience is the difference between the Spirit telling you "you really shouldn't do this thing that damages your spirit" because he has knowledge of such, versus the Son testifying to you "It was really hellish when I felt the consequences of the action you're contemplating." It also means that the Son is especially able to judge us because we can never tell him "you don't know what it's like to be me." He proxy-walked in each of our shoes.

I think we've covered the aspect of oneness that we can attain to if we are faithful (joining the cause, mingling in the assembly of the gods). I'm convinced there has to be an exclusive aspect of the Godhead to limit it to just the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Do you think there is more to the exclusive aspect than just the legalese that the Godhead is comprised of these three and no more? Or is there an attribute/qualification that makes them such?

Hello, Mordorbund;

I apologize for taking so long to respond to your post....I had no access to a computer over the fourth of July weekend. Frankly, I'm a little overwhelmed by the various posts; they're a little over my head and become tedious for me to study them and try to understand all that is being said and confirmed/disputed, lol.

I understand that the Saviour gained experiential omniscience through the atonement. However, I had the understanding that He was a member of the Godhead in the preexistence as well as during His mortality....It was once explained to me by an institute teacher that God's time and our time were very different. That part of Godhood was being in "the present/an eternal now" for all time..... I believe that is what He taught, but I'm not sure if my memory is serving me correctly. Anyway, it was like they were in the center of time (it was likened to the hub of a wheel) and could see the past, present and future as if they were happening in the present~

As far as the legalese involved in making the Godhead an exclusive trio, I believe They make up the Godhead as part of Their calling to govern the universe. I hope there are more gods than just these Three, but that They have been given this specific calling to rule over the universe. I had the impression that space was endless and that there were other Godheads doing the same in their part of the universe.

It has been said on this thread that Christ created "worlds innumerable" and that He suffered and died for all of them. It blows me away that, of all the worlds He created, this was the one, single world He came to in order to fulfill His mortal ministry. That seems pretty cosmic to me!

Thanks~

Dove

[Vanhin]

Dove,

Have you read "Jesus the Christ", by James E. Talmage, before? This is one of the handful of books that missionaries are allowed to read besides the scriptures. I highly recommend it - even for those who have not read it in a while. In it, the antemortal Godship of Jesus Christ is made in unequivocal terms.

It is one of my all time favorites, and just thinking about it now makes me want to read it again. Check out this sample:

It now becomes our purpose to inquire as to the position and status of Jesus the Christ in the antemortal world, from the period of the solemn council in heaven, in which He was chosen to be the future Savior and Redeemer of mankind, to the time at which He was born in the flesh.

We claim scriptural authority for the assertion that Jesus Christ was and is God the Creator, the God who revealed Himself to Adam, Enoch, and all the antediluvial patriarchs and prophets down to Noah; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God of Israel as a united people, and the God of Ephraim and Judah after the disruption of the Hebrew nation; the God who made Himself known to the prophets from Moses to Malachi; the God of the Old Testament record; and the God of the Nephites. We affirm that Jesus Christ was and is Jehovah, the Eternal One.

The scriptures specify three personages in the Godhead; (1) God the Eternal Father, (2) His Son Jesus Christ, and (3) the Holy Ghost. These constitute the Holy Trinity, comprizing three physically separate and distinct individuals, who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens.[67] At least two of these appear as directing participants in the work of creation; this fact is instanced by the plurality expressed in Genesis: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"; and later, in the course of consultation concerning Adam's act of transgression, "the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us."[68] From the words of Moses, as revealed anew in the present dispensation,[Pg 33] we learn more fully of the Gods who were actively engaged in the creation of this earth: "And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Then, further, with regard to the condition of Adam after the fall: "I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us."[69] In the account of the creation recorded by Abraham, "the Gods" are repeatedly mentioned.[70] (The Project Gutenberg eBook of Jesus The Christ, by James E. Talmage - Chapter 4)

Here's a link to the whole book online. The Project Gutenberg eBook of Jesus The Christ, by James E. Talmage.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

I love this stuff. Here's more from the same chapter...

As heretofore shown in another connection, the Father operated in the work of creation through the Son, who thus became the executive through whom the will, commandment, or word of the Father was put into effect. It is with incisive appropriateness therefore, that the Son, Jesus Christ, is designated by the apostle John as the Word; or as declared by the Father "the word of my power".[71] The part taken by Jesus Christ in the creation, a part so prominent as to justify our calling Him the Creator, is set forth in many scriptures. The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews refers in this wise distinctively to the Father and the Son as separate though associated Beings: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."[72] Paul is even more explicit in his letter to the Colossians, wherein, speaking of Jesus the Son, he says: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist."[73] And here let be repeated the testimony of John, that by the Word, "who was with God, and who was God even in the beginning, all things were made; and without him was not anything made that was made."[74]

Regards,

Vanhin

[GADBabaganoosh]

To be honest, i just skip over all the mumbo jumbo. The long and short of it is, and what I KNOW and am sure of, is that they all work in tandum but are different. That Christ is our mediator with the Father, and all things are done through him, and that the Holy Ghost confirms the truth, and seals ordinances as the Holy Spirit of promise. They all work towards God's ends, and all of it can be found in the scriptures. I'm like Nephi, i like the plain and simple things. Speculating over deep doctrine has never been fun for me. I understand that a lot of it comes from various LDS works and thats fine. But i always just like to stick to the scriptures.

[Justice]

It now becomes our purpose to inquire as to the position and status of Jesus the Christ in the antemortal world, from the period of the solemn council in heaven, in which He was chosen to be the future Savior and Redeemer of mankind, to the time at which He was born in the flesh.

This does not say He was God before He was chosen as such in the Grand Council in heaven. You have to read carefully.

Continuing on with that thought...

Isn't the language used in the creation process interesting?

As Jehova is creating, according to the Father's will, it says, "And God said..." over and over through out the process.

Then, when it's time to make man, it says something notably different:

"And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

Then, as to Adam's condition after the Fall, this is said:

"I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us."

For a long time I understood "Let us make man..." and "man has become as one of us..." as the Father speaking to Jehova, AND referring to Himself and Jehova as "us."

But, after further study, and plain logic, I see it could not have been.

Obviously, He was speaking to Jehova. Jehova was the One who had completed ALL the creation tasks of this heaven and earth as described. But, was the Father speaking of "He and the Son" creating man in their image, both male and female? Or, could He have been speaking to the Son, saying, "You have done well, but now it's time for Me and Mother (us) to create man?"

The wording, as well as everything we know and understand about families, suggest the latter.

Why is this significant, and what is my point? Because the Father was not saying Jehova knew good from evil yet, and could not until He had taken a physical body. As this scripture is often used as evidence that Jehova had to have had a physical body before He was born here, I would simply say, it does not prove that, nor does it seem to offer any evidecne if understood properly. In fact, it seems to be saying the opposite.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Justice

[Hemidakota]

So, let me see if I have this right, you are saying, that the Savior was the one who create the spiritual children and the spiritual earth prior to the physical?

[Justice]

Not at all.

What I'm saying is that Jehova led all the creation efforts (physical world) as directed by the Father, UNTIL it came time to create man on the earth.

Then, the Father told Jehova to let He (the Father) and Mother create man.

You might want to re-read it. :) It's early... get some orange juice first. :)

[Dove]

Dove,

Have you read "Jesus the Christ", by James E. Talmage, before? This is one of the handful of books that missionaries are allowed to read besides the scriptures. I highly recommend it - even for those who have not read it in a while. In it, the antemortal Godship of Jesus Christ is made in unequivocal terms.

It is one of my all time favorites, and just thinking about it now makes me want to read it again. Check out this sample:

It now becomes our purpose to inquire as to the position and status of Jesus the Christ in the antemortal world, from the period of the solemn council in heaven, in which He was chosen to be the future Savior and Redeemer of mankind, to the time at which He was born in the flesh.

We claim scriptural authority for the assertion that Jesus Christ was and is God the Creator, the God who revealed Himself to Adam, Enoch, and all the antediluvial patriarchs and prophets down to Noah; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God of Israel as a united people, and the God of Ephraim and Judah after the disruption of the Hebrew nation; the God who made Himself known to the prophets from Moses to Malachi; the God of the Old Testament record; and the God of the Nephites. We affirm that Jesus Christ was and is Jehovah, the Eternal One.

The scriptures specify three personages in the Godhead; (1) God the Eternal Father, (2) His Son Jesus Christ, and (3) the Holy Ghost. These constitute the Holy Trinity, comprizing three physically separate and distinct individuals, who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens.[67] At least two of these appear as directing participants in the work of creation; this fact is instanced by the plurality expressed in Genesis: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"; and later, in the course of consultation concerning Adam's act of transgression, "the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us."[68] From the words of Moses, as revealed anew in the present dispensation,[Pg 33] we learn more fully of the Gods who were actively engaged in the creation of this earth: "And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Then, further, with regard to the condition of Adam after the fall: "I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us."[69] In the account of the creation recorded by Abraham, "the Gods" are repeatedly mentioned.[70] (The Project Gutenberg eBook of Jesus The Christ, by James E. Talmage - Chapter 4)

Here's a link to the whole book online. The Project Gutenberg eBook of Jesus The Christ, by James E. Talmage.

Regards,

Vanhin

Hello, Vanhin,

Thank you for responding to my post and for providing these quotes.... It affirms in my mind that the Saviour was one of the Godhead long before His mortal ministry here.

I remember reading Jesus The Christ some time ago. It seemed to me after awhile that Elder Talmage was giving his opinion on some of the parables of the Saviour; specifically, the one on Mary and Martha why Martha was chided for censoring Mary over not helping her..... It's been so long ago that I'm certainly open to reading it again!

Thanks again for providing those links. I appreciate your posts and feel urged to go back and study them a little further :)

Dove

[Dove]

This does not say He was God before He was chosen as such in the Grand Council in heaven. You have to read carefully.

Continuing on with that thought...

Isn't the language used in the creation process interesting?

As Jehova is creating, according to the Father's will, it says, "And God said..." over and over through out the process.

Then, when it's time to make man, it says something notably different:

"And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

Then, as to Adam's condition after the Fall, this is said:

"I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us."

For a long time I understood "Let us make man..." and "man has become as one of us..." as the Father speaking to Jehova, AND referring to Himself and Jehova as "us."

But, after further study, and plain logic, I see it could not have been.

Obviously, He was speaking to Jehova. Jehova was the One who had completed ALL the creation tasks of this heaven and earth as described. But, was the Father speaking of "He and the Son" creating man in their image, both male and female? Or, could He have been speaking to the Son, saying, "You have done well, but now it's time for Me and Mother (us) to create man?"

The wording, as well as everything we know and understand about families, suggest the latter.

Why is this significant, and what is my point? Because the Father was not saying Jehova knew good from evil yet, and could not until He had taken a physical body. As this scripture is often used as evidence that Jehova had to have had a physical body before He was born here, I would simply say, it does not prove that, nor does it seem to offer any evidecne if understood properly. In fact, it seems to be saying the opposite.

Hello, Justice,

This is not the first time I have heard that both the Father and the Mother participated in the creation of Adam. In fact, it was the same institue leader who taught me about the concept of Godly time that also taught that both parents came to the earth and ate of the physical fruit in order to give birth to Adam and Eve.... I believe this teacher was referring to quotes given by Brigham Young.

Anyway, that's what was taught to me.... I appreciate both your and Vanhin's comments. I have no problem with your discussion, even though it's a little over my head. I feel that if it causes both of you to think and contemplate further the manner of the Godhead; by all means, more power to you..:)

[Vanhin]

This does not say He was God before He was chosen as such in the Grand Council in heaven. You have to read carefully.

Continuing on with that thought...

Isn't the language used in the creation process interesting?

As Jehova is creating, according to the Father's will, it says, "And God said..." over and over through out the process.

Then, when it's time to make man, it says something notably different:

"And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

Then, as to Adam's condition after the Fall, this is said:

"I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us."

For a long time I understood "Let us make man..." and "man has become as one of us..." as the Father speaking to Jehova, AND referring to Himself and Jehova as "us."

But, after further study, and plain logic, I see it could not have been.

Obviously, He was speaking to Jehova. Jehova was the One who had completed ALL the creation tasks of this heaven and earth as described. But, was the Father speaking of "He and the Son" creating man in their image, both male and female? Or, could He have been speaking to the Son, saying, "You have done well, but now it's time for Me and Mother (us) to create man?"

The wording, as well as everything we know and understand about families, suggest the latter.

Why is this significant, and what is my point? Because the Father was not saying Jehova knew good from evil yet, and could not until He had taken a physical body. As this scripture is often used as evidence that Jehova had to have had a physical body before He was born here, I would simply say, it does not prove that, nor does it seem to offer any evidecne if understood properly. In fact, it seems to be saying the opposite.

That is some seriously deep speculation there my friend. You are welcome to believe as you wish. Some parts of the creation, however, are not friendly to much speculation. To the Brother of Jared, the pre-mortal Jesus Christ taught the following:

Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:14-16)

Those are some powerful scriptures in so many ways.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited July 9, 2010 by Vanhin

[Justice]

Yes, the Son can speak for the Father in the first person, because He delivers His message.

Surely you don't think the Father and the Son are the same Being just because those words say so? After Joseph Smith saw them both in person?

And, Jehova had shown Himself to man before, but the Father hadn't.

You can't discount what we know because scripture needs interpreted. Using the first vision as doctrine, these words become different than their face value.

[Vanhin]

Yes, the Son can speak for the Father in the first person, because He delivers His message.

Surely you don't think the Father and the Son are the same Being just because those words say so? After Joseph Smith saw them both in person?

And, Jehova had shown Himself to man before, but the Father hadn't.

You can't discount what we know because scripture needs interpreted. Using the first vision as doctrine, these words become different than their face value.

Those words don't say the Father and the Son are the same being. But they do correctly identify Jesus Christ as the Creator. He is not speaking as the Father, He is speaking as himself, "Behold, I am Jesus Christ". When He speaks as the Father, He speaks as the Father.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited July 10, 2010 by Vanhin

[Justice]

Edit

[Justice]

Those words say "I am the Father and the Son."

He is speaking for both Himself and His Father. Some apply to Him (Jehova) and some apply to the Father. Clearly He was not speaking about Himself when He said He never before showed Himself to man, because He (Jehova) had. That was the Father. When He said He created man, that was the Father as well.

There are witness of both the Father and the Son in those words.

I read some comments by Elder McConkie, Elder B. H. Roberts, and Pres. Joseph F. Smith on this very topic.

I will look for those words.

Jesus Christ is/was the Creator. I said that. But, did He create man?

Your claim is He had a body of flesh and bone, and I guess a wife, so that He could "create" man, before He was born here.

The scriptures I posted refuted that idea. I believe if you give them a close study you will see it's not "serious" speculation, but perhaps an interpretation that fits those words, as well as the scriptures you posted.

Here's some light reading:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Origin of Man

Excerpt:

The Origin of Man

First Presidency

In a general way the answer is given in the words chosen as the text of this treatise. “God created man in his own image.” It is more explicitly rendered in the Book of Mormon thus: “All men were created in the beginning after mine own image” (Ether 3:15). All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity. “God created man in His own image.” This is just as true of the spirit as it is of the body, which is only the clothing of the spirit, its complement—the two together constituting the soul.

[Vanhin]

I'm actually done with this conversation.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Justice]

I guess it was Joseph Fielding Smith.

The Father’s authority given to his Son. At times, the Son speaks with the authority of the Father, in the voice of the Father. During the administration of President Joseph F. Smith, the First Presidency and the Twelve explained, “The Father placed His name upon the Son; and Jesus Christ spoke and ministered in and through the Father’s name; and so far as power, authority, and Godship are concerned His words and acts were and are those of the Father.” (Improvement Era, August 1916, p. 940.)

Thus, the Son of God exercises his divine authority as he directs the plan of salvation. For example, in the beginning of section 29, Jesus Christ identifies himself: “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I AM, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins.” [D&C 29:1]

Later, though, in the forty-second verse, he speaks in the Father’s name: “I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son.”

The Lord reminds us that he and the Father are one (see D&C 20:28), so it is not surprising that he speaks at times as the Father. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “In giving revelations, our Savior speaks at times for himself; at other times for the Father and in the Father’s name, as though he were the Father.” (Bruce R. McConkie, comp., Doctrines of Salvation, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954, 1:27.)

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “You Have Heard My Voiceâ€

Edited July 10, 2010 by Justice

[Justice]

OK.

Sorry if I offended you. That was not my intention.

I think people who read these forums are interested in finding truth. If they make it this far into this discussion they are pretty interested. You have the responsibility to present it as you see it, with supporting scriptures and references. I am only doing the same.

I don't think disagreeing is such a bad thing, and never get offended. I am open to ideas and interpretations.

I will ponder and pray about this conversation, as I always do.

Thanks for your time.

[Justice]

Your claim is He had a body of flesh and bone, and I guess a wife, so that He could "create" man, before He was born here.

I am told that I have misrepresented Vanhin's views with this statement.

Not only that, but I worded it poorly, almost in a condescending tone.

I apologize for both. I did neither intentionally.

I really thought that's what he believed. And, I do see that it is worded it to make it sound less viable. I was wrong to do that.

From now on I will try to find direct quotes, or seek clarification before I assume what someone believes.

I'm sorry, Vanhin.

I guess I will remove myself from this conversation also, since I'm discussing against a belief that isn't really there. I do hope to understand your views one day, though.