Disrespectful Teens and Appropriate Consequences

[frustrated]

I've got one challenging Teen (15 years old) who was being disrespectful to me (their father) this past weekend. He was commenting on my behavior in sarcastic mean tones. He was name calling and also comparing me to Hilter. I was biting my tongue most of this time. It was several incidents where he was going off on me and not just one.

Long story short, I removed his XBox privileges for a day (probably more since he continued to make digs at me during FHE tonight). Do you guys think that was an appropriate consequence? My wife doesn't think so. She even mentioned that she didn't think that was appropriate to do. She did this in front of our teen (but that a whole other can of worms).

Just wanted to get some other perspectives, to see if I'm being overly strict, not strict enough, or if there's something more appropriate for dealing with extremely mouthy kids.

[AndieJ]

Teens are disrespectful. If they get away with it then they become adults who are disrespectful--like your wife.

[FunkyTown]

Difficult to say.

Did you warn him that his behaviour is inappropriate?

What were your intentions behind punishing him? Was it to teach him a lesson or was it because your feelings were hurt?

Frankly, I'd have been a whole lot more harsh than 'No X-box privileges' if it was bad.

On the other hand, I'm getting the feeling that there's more to this. What behaviour was he commenting on in smart tones? Why did he compare you to Hitler?

There are permutations to this. He should be respectful, but without knowing why he was being disrespectful, we have a very two-dimensional view of what he was doing. It's obviously none of my business, but there might be a better way to deal with it if we know the whole story.

[frustrated]

You're right there is more to the story. I could write a book on everything that has happened to bring us to this point that, but I'll try to give a little history. Some of these issues stem from issues between my wife and I. We don't see eye to eye on parenting issues all the time. She has a better relationship with our kids than I. I tend to be more stern and willing to hold the line on boundaries, however my wife is more loving/empathetic but not as willing to hold the line on boundaries. We been in and out of counseling for around 7 years (sometimes successfully and sometimes not). I subscribe to the love and logic approach (though I'm not perfect at it). I'm working on the love/empathy part more, and my wife is working on the logic/discipline part. So in short our parenting has been a bit hit and miss due to our conflicts.

Our son is very good at manipulating mom to get what he wants (and I often feel powerless to do anything because he now has mom on his side). He is an opportunist and somewhat hedonistic. He's also rather spoiled in my opinion. He has a thirst for violent games (M fare) and horror movies (much to my chagrin). I think he feels justified in making jabs at Dad, because mom does too. He feels that the family rules are too constricting. He calls them my rules even though my wife and I put them together (some of them with the kids input too). That's where the Hitler comment came in. The rules are not overly strict (I know families in our ward that are far more strict). I feel he is just trying get his way and sees me as an obsticle that he has to "mow down".

He was warned that he was "out of line" and it wasn't okay, but he kept at it. He was even warned by his mom that it wasn't okay also (which doesn't always happen). I made the decision to remove XBox privledges. It wasn't a joint decision (which I know wasn't the best) but I let my wife know about it so that she wasn't going to be blind sighted. We tried jointly implementing consequences before and often it ends up being no consequence at all. I wanted some action this time (more than just talking to him). I get really frustrated that boundaries aren't being held (enforced) much in my home. I'm always the bad guy for "holding the line".

Edited July 13, 2010 by frustrated
Added more info

[FunkyTown]

Now this is definitely a big part of the story.

You should know that your son is only acting as adolescents and, in fact, most social animals do: They take advantage of whatever rules help them get what they want.

You weren't being too strict, if this is the whole story. Instead, what you need to do is talk to your wife before you assign punishment.

Let your wife have a go at deciding punishment. If a certain modicum of respect is demanded, speak to your wife and explain - As a peacemaker - That you don't want your son to become disrespectful as he grows up. Tell her that you trust her instincts and that you'll back her up on whatever punishment she deigns necessary, but that there has to be a punishment to keep him on the straight and narrow. If she disagrees on the punishment, accept her argument and say 'All right. Would you say that what he did was appropriate?'. If she says it's completely appropriate, pause for a moment and say 'Okay. I'll let it go. If I'm in the wrong, I'm in the wrong.'

If your wife has decided the punishment, you both can enforce it with love. Then, your son is needling your wife if he disagrees.

It sounds like your wife and you need to make more joint decisions outside of earshot of your kids.

Our son is very good at manipulating mom to get what he wants (and I often feel powerless to do anything because he now has mom on his side). He is an opportunist and somewhat hedonistic. He's also rather spoiled in my opinion. He has a thirst for violent games (M fare) and horror movies (much to my chagrin). I think he feels justified in making jabs at Dad, because mom does too. He feels that the family rules are too constricting. He calls them my rules even though my wife and I put them together (some of them with the kids input too). That's where the Hitler comment came in. The rules are not overly strict (I know families in our ward that are far more strict). I feel he is just trying get his way and sees me as an obsticle that he has to "mow down".

[frustrated]

It sounds like your wife and you need to make more joint decisions outside of earshot of your kids.

True. I totally agree on that. I wish my wife would agree on that. At times she does agree on that, but other times she makes the excuse "but it involves them so they should be a part of the discussion" (It irks me when that happens).

When we put the rules together we did write down some consequences for certain infractions (ones that happen often), but it rarely seems to get enforced. I think she understands (at least on a logical level) that there needs to be consequences, but she doesn't always follow through on them (I'm not perfect at it either). It sometimes seems she fears she'll be damaging her relationship with the kids if she has to dish out a consequence. It's almost as if she wants to be her kids friend instead of a parent.

[FunkyTown]

This is entirely possible. She might be the type of person who wants you to be the 'bad guy'. It lets her off the hook and she ends up gaining a stronger bond with your children at your expense.

That's not good.

You're also enabling her behaviour when you go behind her back and assign punishments without involving her. And it sounds like you're letting your kids get under your skin.

You have a rough road ahead of you.

What you need to do is be consistent, be kind, be understanding. Don't yell. Be firm sometimes, but always let them know they're loved. If he's being smart-mouthed, don't let it get under your skin. Your child wants to get under your skin. You can't let him do that. You're the adult. If your wife wants the children to be involved in the punishment, then let them. Tell your child that it's inappropriate to act the way he is. When he does, look to your wife.

Ask her what you think should be done about the situation. Don't get upset with her. She sounds like she's scared of losing the current situation where you're the bad guy and she gets the sympathy love by being 'protective'.

Children need boundaries. Your wife can't undermine you and you can't undermine your wife by assigning punishments without consultation.

Your wife needs to grow up and, sadly, you need to help her by letting her set consequences.

When we put the rules together we did write down some consequences for certain infractions (ones that happen often), but it rarely seems to get enforced. I think she understands (at least on a logical level) that there needs to be consequences, but she doesn't always follow through on them (I'm not perfect at it either). It sometimes seems she fears she'll be damaging her relationship with the kids if she has to dish out a consequence. It's almost as if she wants to be her kids friend instead of a parent.

[Elgama]

It may have a little to do with Mother's Instinct, the most difficult thing I have to do in my marriage is keep my mouth shut when I feel my husband is being too harsh with kids, or doing something with them I don't like, my major urge is always too protect my kids. Respect goes both ways, I know I often disrespect my children without realising it, it maybe worth taking a step back and just noting what you actually say to him and what you hope to achieve with him. Also do you do Lad and Dad time?

Something that seriously helps us is How to Talk so Kids Will Listen, How to Listen so Kids Will Talk, by Elaine Mazlish and Adele Faber. They do a book specially for teens which I haven't read (mine are 6,3, or 1), the book is common sense but not easy to follow either because it challenges our bad habits. Whilst behaviour has consequences I don't believe they need to be punitive or at very least they should be related to the offence.

I find it in line with the ideas the Hinckleys talk about here or logical consequences in another Ensign article:

LDS.org - Liahona Article - At Home with the Hinckleys

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Truth of Consequences

My question would be what does taking away his Xbox really teach him? I am not seeing how that helps him respect you, because its the right thing to do, do you really want him respecting you because you will take away his Xbox or do you want to be respected because its the right thing to do?

My Mum based her discipline on if you behaved and were respectful you could be trusted - for example to go to bed when I was tired rather than a bedtime (had to be upstairs by a certain time), if I abused it and it affected grades or my mood then I would lose the priviledge. I could be out with my friends as late as I wanted and pretty much go where I wanted because if I treated her with respect she could trust me to be respectful outside the house, I was expected to call in, let her know where I was and come in at the time I had said I would be in, again I would have lost the priviledge and freedom to do that if I had abused her.

Its something that comes through from the children of several prophets that they said they behaved because their parents expected them to behave, it was taken as a given they would, personally I think setting consequences in front of them ahead of time assumes they will break the rules. Instead of giving them the rule with the attitude I know you can keep this rule I have faith in you and your ability to keep them. I personally don't set any rules for my children that I am not prepared to keep as an adult - no shouting applies to us, telling someone where you are going and what time you will be home is something we do etc

I have had a lot of people accuse me of being lax as a parent but mostly only at church, everyone else seems to think I have great well behaved kids. I have never had serious issues with them running away, being rude etc outside the house. Yesterday was lovely after behaving like little harradans alll morning I took them for a walk and they were brilliant. It was the first time my three year old had been allowed to walk with me by a road without holding hands, he earned that because he had shown he wasn't going to try and runaway and held my hand nicely when I asked. He was told he had to walk nicely by the pram, and he did.

[miztrniceguy]

If he's mouthy you could always wash it out with a bar of soap.

[Suzie]

Not trying to be sarcastic here or harsh but we are talking about taking away the use of an Xbox for a day, NOT letting the child starve the whole day without food and little water! That's not harsh at all!

I think it was the appropriate discipline, it seems to me that he needs more of that (taking away his privileges) HOWEVER, in my opinion the issue here to be resolved it's not with him but with your wife. That's the REAL issue here. Unless both of you are in the same page with regards to parenting and disciplining, then the whole thing is bound to fail.

[Wingnut]

It sometimes seems she fears she'll be damaging her relationship with the kids if she has to dish out a consequence. It's almost as if she wants to be her kids friend instead of a parent.

Ironically, the very behavior that she chooses to engage in is the behavior that is more damaging that what she's trying to avoid. She needs to pull up her bootstraps and be a mean mom. She needs to show the kids that she is their parent. That line has been blurred.

Sometimes teens need a friend in their parents, but mostly they need parents. They can find trusted adult confidants in youth leaders at church. Parents need to be the parents. I am the YW president in my ward. I have one Laurel, and she rarely comes. On one hand, I remember being her age -- my peers were mostly either too busy or too cool to come to Mutual, but everyone was there on Sundays. This young woman's parents don't make her do anything she doesn't want to do, including attending meetings on Sundays. It's not that she's rebellious and trying to make a life decision to go the other direction. She just doesn't feel like getting up in the morning, or doesn't want to go because she's the only one her age in our ward. Her younger brother is even worse, and her older sister was pretty bad as a youth as well (I don't know about the sister now, because she attends the YSA branch). The parents don't enforce any kind of house rules about going to church, because they just want to be friends with their children. Sometimes I really just want to smack them upside their heads and say, "MAN UP! Be a parent. Your kids need it! You think you're doing them a favor, but really, you're doing a huge disservice to them, that will affect the rest of their lives!!!"

(Wow, sorry.)

Point is, parents shouldn't be friends with their kids. They need to be authoritative (appropriately, of course).

I think it was the appropriate discipline,

I disagree, mainly because I believe that a consequence should fit the offending action. Taking away an XBox doesn't really have a direct tie to disrespectful accusations spat out at Dad. Perhaps if the son has become noticeably more disrespectful since playing XBox and watching horror movies, that might be an appropriate consequence, since those media are obviously affecting his behavior. It's not clear from what the OP has told us that that is necessarily the case, though.

[mightynancy]

What's the appropriate consequence, then?

Does the boy have an XBox because his dad worked for the money to buy it?

[Elgama]

Not trying to be sarcastic here or harsh but we are talking about taking away the use of an Xbox for a day, NOT letting the child starve the whole day without food and little water! That's not harsh at all!

who said it was harsh/? I think its pointless and inappropriate, not sure what its supposed to teach. Its not logically attached to his behaviour - I struggle just as much when I think my husband is being petty with the kids which for me removing an Xbox for ONE day is. Maybe making him do one of his Father's chores might be more appropriate

Personally if you want to go through the punitive route I don't think its punitive enough to teach a lesson. If he was going to lock it up for over a month maybe. I just think personally its petty causing unnecessary pain and further rift between Father and Son without actually achieving much

[Elgama]

I

Sometimes teens need a friend in their parents, but mostly they need parents. They can find trusted adult confidants in youth leaders at church. Parents need to be the parents. I am the YW president in my ward. I have one Laurel, and she rarely comes. On one hand, I remember being her age -- my peers were mostly either too busy or too cool to come to Mutual, but everyone was there on Sundays. This young woman's parents don't make her do anything she doesn't want to do, including attending meetings on Sundays. It's not that she's rebellious and trying to make a life decision to go the other direction. She just doesn't feel like getting up in the morning, or doesn't want to go because she's the only one her age in our ward. Her younger brother is even worse, and her older sister was pretty bad as a youth as well (I don't know about the sister now, because she attends the YSA branch). The parents don't enforce any kind of house rules about going to church, because they just want to be friends with their children. Sometimes I really just want to smack them upside their heads and say, "MAN UP! Be a parent. Your kids need it! You think you're doing them a favor, but really, you're doing a huge disservice to them, that will affect the rest of their lives!!!"

.

I kind of agree with most of your post but this came to mind:

Sister Hinckley: When my daughter Jane was a young girl, she said to me one day that she had a friend who was grounded. I said, “Grounded? What does that mean?” We let our children figure things out for themselves. They knew when they were doing wrong, and they would fix it themselves. One of our daughters decided to stay home from church one Sunday. So she stayed home. She got very lonely. Everybody was in church but her, and she just sat on the lawn. She didn’t try that again. She figured it wasn’t any fun. It was lonely.

[Wingnut]

I kind of agree with most of your post but this came to mind:

Sister Hinckley: When my daughter Jane was a young girl, she said to me one day that she had a friend who was grounded. I said, “Grounded? What does that mean?” We let our children figure things out for themselves. They knew when they were doing wrong, and they would fix it themselves. One of our daughters decided to stay home from church one Sunday. So she stayed home. She got very lonely. Everybody was in church but her, and she just sat on the lawn. She didn’t try that again. She figured it wasn’t any fun. It was lonely.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work with my young woman. I was called to be YW President at the end of September last year. I have seen her at church probably 7-8 times since then, and at activities probably only 4 times.

[Elgama]

Unfortunately, that doesn't work with my young woman. I was called to be YW President at the end of September last year. I have seen her at church probably 7-8 times since then, and at activities probably only 4 times.

its difficult being the only one, it doesn't mean she is totally lost though, I live in a small branch and have seen this happen with Laurels only for them to go to uni etc and actually be the most active. Whereas I have seen a Laurel who was dragged to church had her 1000 day seminary reading certificate etc go inactive as soon as she was given the opportunity. Even Lehi had Laman and Lemuel, and Heavenly Father has Satan/Lucifer,

[Suzie]

who said it was harsh/? I think its pointless and inappropriate, not sure what its supposed to teach. Its not logically attached to his behaviour - I struggle just as much when I think my husband is being petty with the kids which for me removing an Xbox for ONE day is. Maybe making him do one of his Father's chores might be more appropriate

Personally if you want to go through the punitive route I don't think its punitive enough to teach a lesson. If he was going to lock it up for over a month maybe. I just think personally its petty causing unnecessary pain and further rift between Father and Son without actually achieving much

You're right. I think the fact he wanted to discipline him was correct, maybe the choice of the discipline was the incorrect one. Thanks for point that out. :)

[Elgama]

You're right. I think the fact he wanted to discipline him was correct, maybe the choice of the discipline was the incorrect one. Thanks for point that out. :)

actually my fault I worded my first post badly I didn't mean harsh I meant unnecessary or not right, petty would come under what I am trying to say, and I am not saying frustrated is petty just the punishment comes across that way. Its as much to protect my husband as my children and the atmosphere in the house.

We all mess up as parents but the help is in the Ensign, and the scriptures, we have prophets as our examples and access to some of the most experienced parents in the world.

Mormon 9:31 is my favourite

31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

[Wingnut]

its difficult being the only one, it doesn't mean she is totally lost though, I live in a small branch and have seen this happen with Laurels only for them to go to uni etc and actually be the most active. Whereas I have seen a Laurel who was dragged to church had her 1000 day seminary reading certificate etc go inactive as soon as she was given the opportunity. Even Lehi had Laman and Lemuel, and Heavenly Father has Satan/Lucifer,

She's not the only young woman in the ward, just the only one her age. The rest are all 12-14, with one turning 15 this week. She wants to go to BYU next year, but I think she's going to have a hard time getting our bishop to give her a favorable ecclesiastical recommendation. Maybe that will be the slap in the face that she needs. If she asks me to write her a letter of recommendation, I'll probably tell her no, because I don't know her well enough since she doesn't come to church or activities. If she insists, I'll write a very honest letter -- which, unfortunately for her, will contain a lot of negative observations.

[Suzie]

actually my fault I worded my first post badly I didn't mean harsh I meant unnecessary or not right, petty would come under what I am trying to say, and I am not saying frustrated is petty just the punishment comes across that way. Its as much to protect my husband as my children and the atmosphere in the house.

We all mess up as parents but the help is in the Ensign, and the scriptures, we have prophets as our examples and access to some of the most experienced parents in the world.

Mormon 9:31 is my favourite

31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

Actually I said harsh because the OP asked if he was being overly strict which I thought, no way!

[Elgama]

She's not the only young woman in the ward, just the only one her age. The rest are all 12-14, with one turning 15 this week. She wants to go to BYU next year, but I think she's going to have a hard time getting our bishop to give her a favorable ecclesiastical recommendation. Maybe that will be the slap in the face that she needs. If she asks me to write her a letter of recommendation, I'll probably tell her no, because I don't know her well enough since she doesn't come to church or activities. If she insists, I'll write a very honest letter -- which, unfortunately for her, will contain a lot of negative observations.

and that is the consequences of her behaviour which she will find out for herself.

[applepansy]

Yes!!! it was appropriate. I probably would have done more. It was very wrong of your wife to question your disciplinary action in front of the child.

The teen years are difficult. We survived them and are now onto the young adult stage.

Good Luck!

[Guest]

I grew up during the days when a kid (from 0 to 99 years old) would get smacked across the mouth for disrespect. It was just one of those "You're such a m.." SMACK!

Until today, it is difficult for me to say a curse word, especially directed at someone - I have to be really really mad where my brain stops working.

Of course, that is the extreme case of discipline. Smacking is really not the way to go. But, the lesson I got from this is that it was very consistent. I knew exactly what would happen the MINUTE I say something disrespectful - instant punishment. My dad doesn't consult with my mom before the smack happens - my mom doesn't consult with my dad either. But, both of them uses the smack - immediate and instant. They must have agreed on that before we were born or something.

My kids right now (ages 6 and 8) will not say anything disrespectful because I've drilled it into their heads it is a bad bad thing and they're at the age where they always try to please their parents. When they become teen-agers, it will be a different story. So, my husband and I will have to come up with something consistent, immediate, and instant consequence so we won't have to consult each other before the consequence is meted out.

I like the chore idea except what do you do if they refuse. I mean - if they're brave enough to mouth off, they're brave enough to laugh in your face when you tell them "You're cutting the grass tomorrow!".

So, any ideas would be appreciated! You lose the Xbox is not a good punishment in my house because the way we have it, the Xbox is not a "given", they have to earn Xbox time (if it is Friday night or Saturday, and if their room is clean and their chores are done and their homework is done and they've practiced their piano, etc. etc. then they can play on the Xbox).

[Elgama]

I

I like the chore idea except what do you do if they refuse. I mean - if they're brave enough to mouth off, they're brave enough to laugh in your face when you tell them "You're cutting the grass tomorrow!".

.

Dad doesn't drive him somewhere he wants to go or makes his dinner or something until the job is done, or not allowed out until its completed? Basically the jist should be making it up to Dad. But conversly if I do something that is disrespectful towards my children then I will do something to make it up to them. Another idea might be doing a work project together. When mine are in trouble we take the dog for a walk so nothing gets heated and its one on one time, usually by the end of it its not a pride issue. May be different as teens but it works with my brother who at nearly 30 is still mentally a teen lol

My How to Talk book gives me a lot of ways to take the heat out of a situation with teens I worked with I found making a joke of it and laughing with them or just talking, then giving the consequence out, works better. With my lot I say your mad, Mummy is mad, go to your room, I'll go to mine, we'll talk later

Edited July 13, 2010 by Elgama

[frustrated]

Thanks everyone for your opinions and help. We resolved the situation yesterday (mostly). We had my son write a written appology before he got the XBox back. My wife also acknowleged that she was wrong to say what she did in front of our son.

My wife and I have lots to work on in terms of coming together on parenting, but this is a good start. Thanks again.