questions from an investigator

[dahlia]

Hi. I've been reading this forum with interest for awhile and finally worked up the nerve to post. I'll just get to the point with my questions:

1) If I go to church, will they keep trying to get me to come back?

1a) If I go to services, will people be offended if I don't go to Sunday school? Bible reading is not part of my religious past and I think I need to work up to it.

1b) What if I only want to go to church once a month or so? I just don't see a need to go every week and wonder what is the percentage of Mormons who actually go every week?

2) What if you never get a temple recommend - can you still get married, that is, will people want to marry someone who can't go to the temple? I am still struggling with the idea of tithing and can see that as a big block to a full conversion and a temple recommend.

3) I'm not sure how to put this, and I'm not trying to put anyone down who is more emotional about this than I am, but do people convert because of an intellectual decision that Mormonism is right for them, or that they agree with most of the practices?

Let's just say that my job requires a high degree of intellectualism. I'm published in my field. I don't do much that isn't based in the intellect. I pray, but for someone to tell me to 'pray on it' isn't going to fly with me when it comes to finding answers. I don't think that it's wrong or disingenuous to engage in an intellectual investigation into a belief system.

So, does anyone know of converts who came to Mormonism after a thorough investigation, perhaps accepting the tenets of the church, rather than 100% belief in them? Do you see the difference I'm getting at?

Well, I hope I haven't turned everyone off. Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Wingnut]

1) If I go to church, will they keep trying to get me to come back?

Yes, and how it happens depends on the particular people and on you. Hopefully it will come across as welcoming and friendly, not as weird and creepy.

1a) If I go to services, will people be offended if I don't go to Sunday school? Bible reading is not part of my religious past and I think I need to work up to it.

For those who are new to the Church, there is a Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. It covers Gospel basics and is taught from a manual, with scriptural references. Most people are in this class for about a year before they begin attending Gospel Doctrine, which is more focused on scriptural text.

1b) What if I only want to go to church once a month or so? I just don't see a need to go every week and wonder what is the percentage of Mormons who actually go every week?

Only about 50% of Mormons worldwide are considered "active," which I believe means that they attend meetings at least quarterly. (I'm reaching pretty far back to remember how that definition is determined, so it might be monthly). Of those who are active, most come on a weekly basis unless they are in a profession that requires them to work Sundays (i.e., the medical field).

2) What if you never get a temple recommend - can you still get married, that is, will people want to marry someone who can't go to the temple? I am still struggling with the idea of tithing and can see that as a big block to a full conversion and a temple recommend.

Well, the good news about this is that you can't obtain a full temple recommend until a year after your baptism, so you do have time to work up to it. Yes, you could still get married, but not in the temple, and not for eternity. I think, however, that you would be hard pressed to find a man (I assume you're a woman, with the name of a flower as your handle) who is a member of the Church and doesn't have any worthiness issues who is willing to marry outside the temple.

3) I'm not sure how to put this, and I'm not trying to put anyone down who is more emotional about this than I am, but do people convert because of an intellectual decision that Mormonism is right for them, or that they agree with most of the practices?

Let's just say that my job requires a high degree of intellectualism. I'm published in my field. I don't do much that isn't based in the intellect. I pray, but for someone to tell me to 'pray on it' isn't going to fly with me when it comes to finding answers. I don't think that it's wrong or disingenuous to engage in an intellectual investigation into a belief system.

So, does anyone know of converts who came to Mormonism after a thorough investigation, perhaps accepting the tenets of the church, rather than 100% belief in them? Do you see the difference I'm getting at?

I would guess that there are some who have converted on an intellectual level, but unfortunately, it's not enough. It won't sustain you in the long run. It needs to be an emotional and spiritual thing as well. That's not to say that you should set aside all reason, but rather that you need to open up to the idea that there is more than logic and intellect that can be right. Really, it's a process of humility -- you admitting that you need the Lord to help you make the decision, and that you need to trust Him. You will be told to "pray about it" -- there's no way around that. There's a scripture that comes to mind, though, that might be helpful in your situation. In the LDS Church, we have four books of scripture in the canon: The Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine & Covenants (a collection of revelations given to -- primarily -- Joseph Smith by way of instruction to the Church), and The Pearl of Great Price (a collection of writings of Moses, Abraham, and Joseph Smith). These verses come from Doctrine & Covenants, and relate to having prayers answered:

Doctrine and Covenants 8:2-3

2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

Everyone gets answers differently, but it's been my personal experience that I recognize an answer to prayer when it both makes sense to me ("tell you in your mind") and it also feels right ("and in your heart"). This is why I say not to put all logic and intellect aside, but rather to move it over and make room for it to share.

[WmLee]

Dahlia ~ Let me see if I can explain this from a personal side. My mother is an “intellect”. The woman holds two doctorate degrees, is published in her field and at one time lectured across the states. When missionaries came to the door she went through three sets and when she ran out of questions and had them all answered to some degree she thought there must be something in the gospel. She and the family joined the church.

She would sometimes attend Sacrament meeting, but she always made sure we went, (I think it was almost like a child care service. She stayed home and read the paper and got ready for her week).

After my father died she was less active. She supported everything about the church, did everything asked of her, but she never really had “both feet in the water”.

Then, she almost lost me when I was injured at work. She made promises to her Father in Heaven IF he would only let me stay. A few years later I came in contact with a bug that almost killed me. While in a coma she again made promises, if only He would allow me to stay, (nothing special about me, I’m just her only son).

Then she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She underwent chemo, had things removed, then diabetes set in. Again, she made promises IF she just had time to finish all she was working on.

One day we were talking and she told me what a fine job I had done with my children. She said, “I don’t know where you got all the energy and time to do all you do with the kids. They are so lucky to have you as their father”. I said, “Mom, I only wanted to give them what I never had when I was growing up. A parent who did things with and for them”.

She was so hurt, and it wasn’t something I meant to do. I explained to her that she had been so busy with college, with lecturing, with writing, I always wanted her to be there when I got an award, when I was singing the solo at school or church, I just wanted her to see what I could do.

It was just after that talk that she started to volunteer for things at church. She has served two missions, she has sent four grandchildren on missions (she made sure they understood the gospel before they were allowed to leave for the MTC) she has been working on Family History for the past 7 years.

She says she always thought she was smarter than the people at church. She “understood” that a lot of what she read in the scriptures was written and put there just to help the less intelligent people live a good life. After our talk she looked back over her life and realized that she was living as if she was the important one, not the kids, not her Father in Heaven. Suddenly she understood she was here to learn and to grow and to help other do the same.

So: 1) if you go to church, they will ask you to come back often and stay. Even the really smart people can learn a little AND you learn more when you teach.

2) No one will be offended if you leave after Sacrament Meeting. They would be sad, but not offended.

3) Go once a month if that’s all you want to do. Again, some sad faces will be there as you leave and those who have the love of our Savior in them will encourage you to come back often and stay.

4) No one will make you get a temple recommend. You can be married in the church for time only (not an eternal marriage) if that is what your goal is. Tithing is NOT required from anyone. Again, the parable about the widow’s mite and stuff . . . probably wasn’t meant for everyone, just those who didn’t understand service.

5) My ‘conversion” happens all the time. When I am at the temple, or just after leaving, when I help someone who didn’t expect help, when someone puts out a hand to me when I didn’t think anyone knew I was hurt or needed just a hug to make it through the day.

I haven’t tried to put you down in any way. I just found my mother so intelligent that the simple things went right by and she was missing so much of life.

Can you tell me how the earth was formed, how life came to be, how intelligence knows what to do? How does the molecule know how to fix to another to create something? How does a baby know to breath after birth, how does a mother know something is wrong when a child miles away is hurt?

Humble yourself and know you are not as intelligent as He that created you. Humble yourself and ask Him what you are to do in/with your life. Ask Him if what you are reading is true, and then get ready to really grow!

I hope I haven’t offended you in any way.

[crazypotato]

Hi,

As far as being an intellectual, Brigham Young, the 2nd president of the church, did not join the church for a long time. He studied the Book of Mormon for two years before joining the church.

"Brigham and Miriam joined the Methodist Church the year they were married, but Brigham continued to wrestle with religious questions. He sought a church organized according to the pattern Jesus had established, after the pattern of the New Testament with a “system of ordinances” (DNW, 19 July 1866, 3) and all the gifts of the gospel. Because of the missionary efforts of Joseph Smith’s brother Samuel, Brigham Young’s family obtained two copies of the Book of Mormon in April 1830, just one month after the book was published. Some of Brigham’s brothers and sisters read it and declared its truth, but Brigham himself did not immediately accept it (see LL, 33). “ ‘Hold on,’ says I. … ‘Wait a little while; what is the doctrine of the book, and of the revelations the Lord has given? Let me apply my heart to them.’ … I examined the matter studiously, for two years, before I made up my mind to receive that book. I knew it was true, as well as I knew that I could see with my eyes, or feel by the touch of my fingers, or be sensible of the demonstration of any sense. Had not this been the case, I never would have embraced it to this day” (MSS, 15:45).

Brigham Young had to know for himself. He later taught the Saints that God did not intend them “to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve” (DNW, 24 Aug. 1854, 1). “It is my duty to know the mind of the Lord concerning myself,” he told them” (DNW, 22 Sept. 1875, 4). “It is your privilege and duty to live so that you know when the word of the Lord is spoken to you and when the mind of the Lord is revealed to you” (DNW, 22 Sept. 1875, 4)."

I think the best reason to join the church is because you believe it is God's church and you have the desire to be in his church.

[Flyonthewall]

Hi. I've been reading this forum with interest for awhile and finally worked up the nerve to post. I'll just get to the point with my questions:

1) If I go to church, will they keep trying to get me to come back?

Most likely, while there, you will be greeted and introduced to a few people. You will get a freindly invite back in the form of: "Hope to see you again", or "Come back any time", or something like that. You won't be mobbed or agressively pursued to come back.

1a) If I go to services, will people be offended if I don't go to Sunday school? Bible reading is not part of my religious past and I think I need to work up to it.

Absolutely not! We/they would be glad that you came to visit at all. I would suggest doing only what you are comfortable with. I must say, though, that one does not need to be a bible scholar to get something from Sunday school, it is geared towards all levels of understanding.

1b) What if I only want to go to church once a month or so? I just don't see a need to go every week and wonder what is the percentage of Mormons who actually go every week?

Obviously you would be invited to attend every week, but come and go as you please.

2) What if you never get a temple recommend - can you still get married, that is, will people want to marry someone who can't go to the temple? I am still struggling with the idea of tithing and can see that as a big block to a full conversion and a temple recommend.

You can still get married without a temple recommend, just not in the temple. There are some people to absolutely require a temple marriage and others do not. Now of course we would prefer everyone get married in the temple.

3) I'm not sure how to put this, and I'm not trying to put anyone down who is more emotional about this than I am, but do people convert because of an intellectual decision that Mormonism is right for them, or that they agree with most of the practices?

People convert because of all different reasons, intellectual ones included. Hopefully there will be something spiritual behind or besides, as religion is faith based.

Let's just say that my job requires a high degree of intellectualism. I'm published in my field. I don't do much that isn't based in the intellect. I pray, but for someone to tell me to 'pray on it' isn't going to fly with me when it comes to finding answers. I don't think that it's wrong or disingenuous to engage in an intellectual investigation into a belief system.

Part of our instructions to everyone is to study it out in your mind. See if it makes sense. Ask questions, and finally ask the Lord(pray).

Now because religion is faith based, pure intellectualism will only go so far. Hopefully along he way of intellectual investigation, you can leave room for faith.

So, does anyone know of converts who came to Mormonism after a thorough investigation, perhaps accepting the tenets of the church, rather than 100% belief in them? Do you see the difference I'm getting at?

Though I can't name anyone personally, I would hope that all converts do a thourough investigation. For some people it "clicks" quickly, and for others it takes detailed study.

Well, I hope I haven't turned everyone off. Thanks in advance for any replies.

Not at all. Always happy to answer what I can.

[dahlia]

Thanks all of you for such considered (and polite!) responses. I hope I did not come off as a jerk; I'm actually a pretty nice person. : )

I hadn't read about the introductory Bible classes, so that is something to look into. I thought it was just one class for everybody.

To WmLee - Although we weren't Mormon, we had 'family night' and I only took jobs that let me spend a lot of time with my son. I had a parent who was too busy to be involved with us and I knew I didn't want that for my child, so I did everything opposite when it came to child raising! It was interesting to read how your mother has changed over the years.

I like this very much, “It is my duty to know the mind of the Lord concerning myself,” I absolutely believe this and think this is why I am drawn to learning more about Mormonism. Thank you for this quote.

If you guys don't mind another question, how can a couple of 19 yr old missionaries adequately address the searching of a middle-aged person with a child older than they are and a heavy-duty academic background? I really admire the missionaries, but they are younger than many of the college kids I teach and I'm afraid I wouldn't get much from them, especially if they were raised Mormon and not used to comparing and contrasting other religions.

Thanks again, Dahlia

[crazypotato]

Thanks all of you for such considered (and polite!) responses. I hope I did not come off as a jerk; I'm actually a pretty nice person. : )

I hadn't read about the introductory Bible classes, so that is something to look into. I thought it was just one class for everybody.

To WmLee - Although we weren't Mormon, we had 'family night' and I only took jobs that let me spend a lot of time with my son. I had a parent who was too busy to be involved with us and I knew I didn't want that for my child, so I did everything opposite when it came to child raising! It was interesting to read how your mother has changed over the years.

I like this very much, “It is my duty to know the mind of the Lord concerning myself,” I absolutely believe this and think this is why I am drawn to learning more about Mormonism. Thank you for this quote.

If you guys don't mind another question, how can a couple of 19 yr old missionaries adequately address the searching of a middle-aged person with a child older than they are and a heavy-duty academic background? I really admire the missionaries, but they are younger than many of the college kids I teach and I'm afraid I wouldn't get much from them, especially if they were raised Mormon and not used to comparing and contrasting other religions.

Thanks again, Dahlia

The 19 year olds are just kids. They are not as wise and life experienced as older people with kids, that is true. Try talking to them anyway. They have dedicated two years to the Lord to serve their missions. Every day they are extra careful about praying, studying the scriptures, fasting, and calling on the Holy Spirit to guide them. They try and keep away from things that offend God or detract from having the Holy Spirit with them. If they are doing those things, they will not be teaching you the gospel - the Holy Ghost will teach you through them.

That is part of the greatness of the gospel. God expects us to use our heads and intellect to study things out and learn. Then the Holy Ghost will verify the truth or falseness of what we have learned. The Holy Ghost gives us a feeling inside, and/or enlightens our minds like a lightbulb brightening the thoughts in our head, or sometimes I can hear him put a thought in my mind that I know is true but that I did not think of myself.

We had the missionaries over for dinner. The dinner conversation was normal, small talk with two dumb kids, really. Then after dinner, they opened up the Book of Mormon to leave us with a scriptural thought and prayer. The entire atmosphere of the room changed. The Holy Spirit entered our hearts and verified the truth of the scripture in the Book of Mormon that they were reading. It was a noticable difference. I can't expect you to believe me, just try taking the missionaries discussions.

[WmLee]

I'm surprised you aren't impressed with these 19 year old kids! I've met a few who are young and they look like deer in the headlights. But, I have listened to some of these young men and the words that have come out of their mouths . . .

Next time, don't look at the 19 year old, listen for the spirit!

[pam]

If you guys don't mind another question, how can a couple of 19 yr old missionaries adequately address the searching of a middle-aged person with a child older than they are and a heavy-duty academic background? I really admire the missionaries, but they are younger than many of the college kids I teach and I'm afraid I wouldn't get much from them, especially if they were raised Mormon and not used to comparing and contrasting other religions.

Sometimes it takes a little humility. Sometimes it's about attitude. If you have the attitude that you are so much wiser and more educated and that you can't possibly learn anything from then, then you won't learn anything. I learn things from my two 19 year olds all the time.

Edited July 20, 2010 by pam

[Guest]

If you guys don't mind another question, how can a couple of 19 yr old missionaries adequately address the searching of a middle-aged person with a child older than they are and a heavy-duty academic background? I really admire the missionaries, but they are younger than many of the college kids I teach and I'm afraid I wouldn't get much from them, especially if they were raised Mormon and not used to comparing and contrasting other religions.

Thanks again, Dahlia

I have been through this too! I'm what you would call "intellectual" as well. There's this guy on this board named Snow who is as intellectual as all get. Snow! Time for you to respond!

Anyway, I'm like you. I completely believe that God gave me a brain so I won't just take anything given to me without logically puzzling it together.

You'll notice in these boards that we all come in different colors living in the same crayon box. Some of us will tell you, just pray and jump. Some of us will tell you, what does your instinct tell you? Some of us will tell you, go to the bishop - immediately. All for the same problem. All because people have different experiences.

The thing is - my journey and everybody else's journey is different. It is my experience that God prepares everyone differently according to their capabilities. Therefore, God may impress upon me an answer that is completely different than somebody else - but eventually works out for the purpose that God intended. So, I cannot say - do this and it should work for you. I can only say - this is what I did and it worked for me.

I was Catholic for the first 30 years of my life. Very devout Catholic. I prayed and prayed and the answer God has always given me is the Catholic church. All my experiences growing up are centered around the truthfulness of the Catholic church, both intellectually and spiritually. So, did God lie to me in the first 30 years of my life? Did my intellect fail me? Did I just not know how to listen to the spirit? No. My experience is that God knew that was what I needed at that time. Without that intellectual and spiritual preparation, I wouldn't have embraced LDS now. My family are still Catholics. They think I'm "lost" and needs to be "found". I can stand in the middle of my family and continue to love the Catholic church that shape them. And they can come to me with all the anti-LDS material they got and it doesn't shake me. Because, intellectually, I understand what LDS is all about. So, I guess I can say that in a way, my intellectual processing of information led me to build the faith necessary to trust in God.

So, there's this 2 young men and women - I went through a bunch of them - trying to explain to me about the Apostasy. As a Catholic who studied Catholicism for decades, their explanation of the Apostasy is pretty basic. But, what they started was a question in my head that I had to answer... does the Catholic Church have the authority? And from that, it led me to more study which eventually led me to an understanding of what they were trying to tell me. So, no, the missionaries didn't convert me - but they started the ball rolling so that the Spirit can manifest the truth to me in the way I process things.

Don't know if I'm making any sense.

[mnn727]

I have a question for you and it may come off as a bit gruff, but its not meant that way, it comes from my personal experience as an intellectual who investigated the Church for a year weighing all the facts I could find and finally converted to the Church as an adult in my late 30's.

The question you need to answer is this: Do you want to do what you want to do or what God wants you to do?

I honestly wanted to know if what I was being taught was true or not, right from day one, however it was not until I changed my prayer from wanting to know truth to being willing to do what God wanted me to do that I got my answer -- and it was unmistakable and undeniable.

When you are willing to do what God wants you to do, those 19-22 year olds can set you on the correct path.

I wish you well.

[dahlia]

I was Catholic for the first 30 years of my life.

Don't know if I'm making any sense.

Sure you are. I was Catholic longer than you. My friend who is now LDS was also Catholic, so I was a little surprised when I learned he converted, but it is good speaking with him because we both come from similar backgrounds and yet both find something attractive about Mormonism.

Regarding the humility thing in another post, of course you can learn from everyone. But let's be real here, some kids who has had a year of college, who has not engaged in debate and argument because they've been raised as Mormons and accept the teachings of the Church, just cannot provide the intellectual satisfaction that I need in my search. I think I would feel better talking to the bishop.

[dahlia]

The question you need to answer is this: Do you want to do what you want to do or what God wants you to do?

Of course I want to do what I want to do. I hope that it is the same as what God wants. I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.

[Addz25]

Of course I want to do what I want to do. I hope that it is the same as what God wants. I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.

Definitely. In trying to be a good person under God, I think about what I want or rather, usually i'm too late (lol) so I think about what I'm doing, and consider whether or not Heavenly Father would agree with it/want it.

[bytebear]

Sure you are. I was Catholic longer than you. My friend who is now LDS was also Catholic, so I was a little surprised when I learned he converted, but it is good speaking with him because we both come from similar backgrounds and yet both find something attractive about Mormonism.

Regarding the humility thing in another post, of course you can learn from everyone. But let's be real here, some kids who has had a year of college, who has not engaged in debate and argument because they've been raised as Mormons and accept the teachings of the Church, just cannot provide the intellectual satisfaction that I need in my search. I think I would feel better talking to the bishop.

The purpose of the missionaries isn't to teach you the deep nuances of the gospel. They ere there to teach you what you need to do to gain a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ (Read, ponder and pray) then invite you to covenant with Him through baptism, and make sure you know what that covenant is, what will be expected of you, and what blessings you can expect.

If you want an intellectual study of the gospel, take an institute class or read the works of James E. Talmage, (and I mean that -both would be excellent endeavors) But you don't need to do that to know that this is God's church.

[mnn727]

Of course I want to do what I want to do. I hope that it is the same as what God wants. I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive.

Sorry, but they are usually very much different paths. God looks at the eternal view of things, most people can not even comprehend the eternal view (even those who think they can).

Thats not a very satisfying answer for you I am sure, it wasn't for me, until I started --just barely started, to get a glimsp of an eternal perspective and of what God wants for his children and how to go about that, and you'll never get that until you are willing to put what you want aside and do what God wants. It was 17 years ago this month for me and I am still learning, this is a life long study for people.

Edited July 21, 2010 by mnn727

[Dravin]

Sure you are. I was Catholic longer than you. My friend who is now LDS was also Catholic, so I was a little surprised when I learned he converted, but it is good speaking with him because we both come from similar backgrounds and yet both find something attractive about Mormonism.

Regarding the humility thing in another post, of course you can learn from everyone. But let's be real here, some kids who has had a year of college, who has not engaged in debate and argument because they've been raised as Mormons and accept the teachings of the Church, just cannot provide the intellectual satisfaction that I need in my search. I think I would feel better talking to the bishop.

The Bishop, being lay clergy, isn't necessarily going to be better positioned to engage you intellectually. He'll have more life experience than the missionaries though. If you told the Missionaries that you wanted to meet at a member's home who was closer to your age and life situation they should be happy to do so (or if you wanted them to bring someone along) but while there is LDS scholarship out there I wouldn't count on being able to find it locally.

There is Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship - Home which you may find useful in your quest for exploring the more intellectual aspect of the Church but realize that, as noted, the purpose of the Missionaries is to engage you spiritually, teach you the essential doctrines and help you discover for yourself the truthfulness of what they teach through personal revelation. In a way it's good that you recognize they won't be able to help you with the intellectual side of things, some missionaries can't seem to admit they just don't know and sometimes oddness get's taught when they go outside their purview.

I think sometimes the divide between what we (LDS) expect and view the purpose of our missionaries and how other Churches view missionaries can result in frustrations.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Dravin

[dahlia]

There is Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship - Home which you may find useful in your quest for exploring the more intellectual aspect of the Church ...

Thanks for the reference to the Institute. I was just cruising around a little and clicked on 'books,' then 'A Comprehensive Annotated Book of Mormon Bibliography.' I expected to see a book description and a price, a la Amazon, and was surprised to see that it was all online! As I stated on another thread, the LDS really have their act together regarding using technology to get their message across. Not only is the info free, but I can get it right now as I listen to the BOM online! Very nice.

[Lilac]

I just wanted to reply about the missionaries and their young age...

I've been investigating for about a year and have been through many sets of missionaries.

Yes, they are young men and I am old enough to be their mother. But they have been really nice young men and are dedicated to what they are doing.

No, they don't have the answers to every question I ask nor do they have the life experience I do. You know what? They don't claim to. The missionairies I have had to my home (sometimes once a week for about a year) have said upfront "I'm young and I know I don't have all the answers but this is what I'd like to share this with you tonight"

They are not cocky. They are not "let me tell you because I'm 19 and brilliant" which is just plain obnoxious at any age.

They have been quite the opposite. Very humble. Very aware that they are speaking with older people and very aware that it is a bit of a funny dynamic at first.

They also are the first to say "I don't know the answer to that question but I will find out for you". I LOVE that. I hate "know it alls" who will tell you anything just so they look smart.

They sometimes bring people from the ward who are my age and can answer a bit more of my "life" questions rather than doctrinal questions. I had some complicated questions about miscarried babies. The next week they showed up with someone who had experinced losing an infant. (i gave them permission to share that personal info)

I am also well educated and pretty well read in religious studies/theology. I have been searching using everything God gave me. My intelligence and my spirituality.

Sometimes I get a bit carried away on the "intellectual" part of it and I am reminded that Jesus taught about having the faith of a child. The faith of a mustard seed.

I wish you well on your search. I just wanted to share that I have had excellent experiences with the missionaries. One has been nicer than the other. Once they have completed their mission and they are home and "free", I have gotten notes from them asking how we were doing in our search. Their job is technically done but for them, it was personal and more than a job. I think that says it all.

[Melissa569]

I would say its half and half. Sometimes I'm doing things for me, sometimes for god. For example, I would do the following things for me:

Eat, sleep, consume beverges

Fall in love

Watch movies

Surf the internet

Have fun with friends

Engage in hobbies

And for god, I would:

Pray

Be nice and helpful to others (at least most of the time)

Try to love people even whent hey make me mad

Go to church

Consult with him in my heart before making a decision

Appreciate and respect the beauty of nature he created, and try to preserve it.

God knows that we have lives too-- he gave them to us, and he wants us to be individuals. that's why we're special.

Sure he wants us to think of him, love him, and spread his word. But he's not so insecure that he demands everyone on the planet be doing abosulutely nothing but praying to or focusing on him every single second, of every single day. Heck, I know people who are in therapy for insecurity and abandonment issues, who aren't that needy. Certainly god's not. He would be just fine without us, but since we are here and he loves us, he would prefer to see us all happy and on a positive path. Just like our parents would.

[pam]

That is so wrong on many different levels.

Why are there 2 lists? Why can't both lists be incorporated into one? Meaning why can't the things we do for ourselves also be for God as well?

Yes we have our lives but we can also live those lives in ways that bring us closer to Him.

Eat, sleep, consume beverges

Are we spending out lives sleeping? Are we eating and consuming beverages that are not healthy for us so that we can carry out the things we need to be doing?

Watch movies

Are we watching movies that bring us down or appropriate movies that build us up?

Surf the internet

Are we surfing the net for appropriate things? Are we using the net to further the gospel or are we surfing the net and watching or reading things filled with porn, profanity and things that can hinder the Spirit in our lives?

Have fun with friends

Do we have friends that support us in our beliefs and don't constantly attempt to pressure us into doing things we know are not right?

Engage in hobbies

Hobbies are great. But also in moderation. I've known people that spend every waking hour scrapbooking. They spend horrible amounts of money on their hobbies

Many of us have to work. Are we being honest in our dealings with our employers, customers or coworkers? Are we honestly working for the pay that we earn or just showing up for work? Believe me I've known many employees that have done just that. They expect pay but do very little to earn it.

What I'm trying to say is, even with the things that we would consider being for "us" we can still be doing it for God. Everything we do we have to think if what we are doing is bringing us closer to God or are we being selfish and just doing it for ourselves?

It's all about attitude.

Edited July 26, 2010 by pam

[beefche]

We are commanded to love God with all our heart, might, and strength. We are to counsel with Him in our all doings. How can we delineate between what we do for us and what we do for God? All of it should be with Him in mind. I can't put God on a shelf while I sleep. He won't do that to me, so why should I?

Being a Christian should not be a Sunday only or Sunday and Wednesdays only type of thing. It is an every day, every moment, part of who I am event.

[Lilac]

I tend to agree with Pam.

This is turning into an interesting thread, by the way.

I think all things we do are connected directly to God. Even the silly stuff, boring stuff and not interesting stuff.

Today I have spent most of the day working from home. Not very Godly but really, it is. I work so I can pay my bills etc and help provide for my family, which consist of four little people and one husband. By choosing the job I did, I can be home and homeschool my kids, which i feel is a very Godly thing.

I have to start making dinner. Again, on the surface, not very interesting and doesn't sound very Godly at all. But it is my responsibility to cook something that is healthy so we can take care of the bodies God gave us. I have to try to cook within our budget. Etc.

My hobbies (which are quite few due to lack of time) are a way to express myself. We recently entered some baking goods in the county fair. A huge mess in my house and again, what does that have to do with God? Well, it's a good family project...cooking together and trying to win a ribbon as a family...teamwork etc. And, it sounds funny but creating foods that are pleasing to the eye and pretty, praises God. God created this beautiful world so you know He likes pretty things. I'm sure He appreciated all of our "pretty" cookies. They are not important in the big scheme of life but it makes life a little sweeter and prettier. We plant flower gardens each year and I tell my kids that the flowers praise the Lord.

The list goes on and on but you get my point. I think, everything we do in our daily life connects to God. How could it not?

[pam]

Absolutely Lilac. Thank you for your post.

[jayanna]

I think you are on the right track, dahlia, I must tell you that those quasi-knowledable missionairies make up in service what they might lack in other areas. I remember when I was investigating and feeling lonely and confused, I prayed late on night after my children were asleep.

I told the Lord that I beleived the church was His church, but wasn't sure if I really belonged in it. I told him that I needed help. I ended the prayer with a heavy sigh, not expecting an answer...and the phone rang. It was a missionary, he apologized for calling so late, but said that he felt all of a sudden, that he just had to call me immediately and tell me that I was wanted.

Tithing, when looked at from a strictly intellectual perspective makes absolutely no sense (or cents, Haha) I don't know if you have studied the Bible much, and I hate to be preachy, but there is something you need to think about. In Matthew Ch. 19 there is a rich young man, he decided not to give up what wealth he had to follow the Lord, sometimes I wonder what journey and knowledge that man gave up...he could have learned from the Savior personally. (That would be way better than college tuition.) Tithing is nothing but faith made physical.

You should attend church and learn...there is nothing more meaty to discuss than the gospel...but I don't want you to be misled on the tithing issue, or feel it was not made known to you...that when you decide to be baptized you will be interviewed by a priesthood holder. He will be a friend and a counselor to you. He will want to make sure that you understand what you are doing. And that priesthood holder will ask you if you have a testimony of tithing. It is not a temple covenant, it is a baptismal covenant. A covenant is a two way relationship, meaning when you give x you get XXX You always get more than you give.

You can find an excellent lesson on this on the church website in the gospel principles book which can be found in the gospel library, lessons, gospel principles. You don't have to be baptized right away, or ever, if you don't want to, but you do have to learn a testimony of tithing to be baptized, which sometimes can't be learned until you just do it...like riding a bicycle or roller skating.

Please keep in mind that the Church of Jesus Christ has amazing resources, and know that if after paying tithing you experience a hardship (job loss, illness, flash flood, etc.) you will not be left alone. Those resources, which I can assure you are extensive, are made available to you in the form of money, food, clothing, job seeking, training, etc. through members from your area. No one goes hungry in Zion.