Are You A Liberal?

[bunnzy]

15 worries me.

It is called the United Nations for a reason.

How come the USA think they are oh so much better than every body else that they are above and beyond the United Nations which consists of, well... the rest of the world pretty much.???

I used to live in CA for 4 years, but hav e always considered myself Australian. I found that the common american was arrogant in thier ignorance of the rest of the world and the way they think they are the 'only free country'. This is not so.

[CrimsonKairos]

The USA pretty much is the U.N.

By that I mean we're the ones who end up footing the bill, enforcing resolutions, assisting with micro-banking, taking the insults of the world for doing what every other U.N. member nation pledged to do but lacks the political will and integrity to do.

The U.N. is a joke. As far as I'm concerned, it stands for "Unbelievable Nonsense."

[Dror]

Yes, I am a liberal.

What you have presented is your idea of what a liberal is, not what a liberal actually is. I refuse to let you define my political beliefs.

As has been pointed out, your little list consists of a series of gross oversimplifications/distortions of what liberals actually believe. In addition, liberals do not all hold the exact same beliefs, any more than conservatives do (indeed, lack of unity is one of our more obvious problems in the U.S.).

IMO, America was founded on liberal principles, and I resent it when people claim I don't believe in American values. How arrogant!

If you want to look at someone who doesn't believe in traditional American values, look at your own president and VP.

Dror

[Elphaba]

Yes, I am a liberal.

What you have presented is your idea of what a liberal is, not what a liberal actually is. I refuse to let you define my political beliefs.

As has been pointed out, your little list consists of a series of gross oversimplifications/distortions of what liberals actually believe. In addition, liberals do not all hold the exact same beliefs, any more than conservatives do (indeed, lack of unity is one of our more obvious problems in the U.S.).

IMO, America was founded on liberal principles, and I resent it when people claim I don't believe in American values. How arrogant!

If you want to look at someone who doesn't believe in traditional American values, look at your own president and VP.

Dror

Elphaba

[Fiannan]

If you want to look at someone who doesn't believe in traditional American values, look at your own president and VP.

Care to share reasons you believe this?

[Elphaba]

If you want to look at someone who doesn't believe in traditional American values, look at your own president and VP.

Care to share reasons you believe this?

I will:

1. Lied about WMD.

2. Unilaterally invaded a sovereign nation without provocation and justification.

3. Lied during State of the Union speech re: Niger Uranium.

4. Responsible for pre-9/11 intelligence failures in White House, CIA, FBI.

5. Allowed 9-11 murderers to remain free while diverting precious military and financial resources to his vanity war in Iraq.

6. Lied about Saddam/bin Laden connection.

7. Turned Iraq into a terrorist breeding ground.

8. Lied about nation-building.

9. Opposed creation of 9-11 Commission and Homeland Security Department.

10. Disrespected and alienated the U.S. from French, German and other key allies.

11. Lied to Americans about the real cost of war.

12. Fostered an environment of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

13. Lined Halliburton's pockets in Afghanistan and Iraq with fat no-bid contracts.

14. Under-manned and under-equipped our armed forces in Iraq, resulting in unnecessary death and injuries.

15. Shunned Kyoto Treaty.

16. Lied about effects of man-made pollutants on the environment to support corporate pals.

17. Lied about the insolvency of Social Security.

18. Gave huge cuts to the wealthiest taxpayers.

19. Lied about true cost of health care bill.

20. Bitterly divided the nation along religious, party and sexual preference lines.

21. Guilty of numerous cronyism appointments (Homeland Security, Supreme Court, etc)

22. Rewarded failures of Condi Rice and other cronies with key promotions.

23. Dreadful energy policies lead to record gas and oil prices.

24. Responsible for the largest debt in U.S. history.

25. Colossal failure of preparedness, rescue and relief during Hurricane Katrina.

26. Fostered a culture of corruption among GOP and top leadership (Tom Delay, etc).

27. Presided over the U.S.'s lowest popularity throughout the world.

28. Saw No Child Left Behind fail.

I'm not done putting my list together, but I'll be back with more. There's just so much to choose from, and I'm trying to be concise.

Elphaba

[the Ogre]

If you want to look at someone who doesn't believe in traditional American values, look at your own president and VP.

Care to share reasons you believe this?

Dude,

Why are making this so easy. I'm not a Liberal, but I dislike Bush and I do not think he holds many American values. I think he is on par with Clinton as far as Americanness is concerned. Both were incredibly poor choices as president (personally, I blame Ross Perot; Bush sr was a better president then either Clinton or Bush jr -- if that putz Perot had stayed out of the race, I think we would be a lot better off then we are now).

El,

Though I'm not going to expend the energy compiling a list or responding to the list you made, Slick Willy was as much to blame for the 9-11 attack as was Bush and the list about him would be just as long.

My question has to do with this: What are American values and who is the one compiling that list? American values are pretty relative; everyone has a different ideal about what American values should be.

Personally, the values I hold I do not attribute to being an American, but rather to being a Chr-stian and a Latter-day Saint. The rest is a hodge-podge of theory and philosophy and I hold no one responsible for any of my personal values.

[Palerider]

Yes, I am a liberal.

What you have presented is your idea of what a liberal is, not what a liberal actually is. I refuse to let you define my political beliefs.

As has been pointed out, your little list consists of a series of gross oversimplifications/distortions of what liberals actually believe. In addition, liberals do not all hold the exact same beliefs, any more than conservatives do (indeed, lack of unity is one of our more obvious problems in the U.S.).

IMO, America was founded on liberal principles, and I resent it when people claim I don't believe in American values. How arrogant!

If you want to look at someone who doesn't believe in traditional American values, look at your own president and VP.

Dror

care to tell me who you think was the last president to care about these things.....and don't say Clinton...please.....

[FrankJL]

care to tell me who you think was the last president to care about these things.....and don't say Clinton...please.....

Jelly beans anyone? :)

[Elphaba]

El,

Though I'm not going to expend the energy compiling a list or responding to the list you made, Slick Willy was as much to blame for the 9-11 attack as was Bush and the list about him would be just as long.

I posted my list in direct response to a request asking for it. It said: If you want to look at someone who doesn't believe in traditional American values, look at your own president and VP. Then someone asked "Care to share reasons you believe this?, and so I did.

'Your own President and VP" are obviously Bush and Cheney; therefore, my list refers to Bush and Cheney, and obviously, that list is probably 1/16th completed. So don't berate me for only providing Bush's lies. That's all that was asked for.

I also disagree that Clinton's list would be nearly as long as Bush's. However, I acknowledge Clinton is culpable as well. I absolutely do not agree that he was as deceitful as Bush.

My question has to do with this: What are American values and who is the one compiling that list? American values are pretty relative; everyone has a different ideal about what American values should be.

I've written enough on the Current Events section that people should know what my values are, but no one ever reads it, so I've quit, at least for the moment. This is gut-wrenching stuff. You want to know what my values are, go read my stuff on Iraq.

Personally, the values I hold I do not attribute to being an American, but rather to being a Chr-stian and a Latter-day Saint. The rest is a hodge-podge of theory and philosophy and I hold no one responsible for any of my personal values.

Neither do mine. I do not value an American's life over an Iraqi's. I sob over an Iraqi's chld's shredded feet and melted skin. But I seem to be the only one here that does. I'm sure there are others who are upset by it as well, I just don't hear from them.

Elphaba

[Moksha]

Elf, for a heads up, what is the limit for sharing liberal ideas on this forum? The ability to talk about these things is apparently much more open than MAD, but I suspect is more constrained than Mormon Discussions.

[Palerider]

care to tell me who you think was the last president to care about these things.....and don't say Clinton...please.....

Jelly beans anyone? :)

you are correct.....wonder if you could guess who was before him????

[Moksha]

you are correct.....wonder if you could guess who was before him????

Neanderthal Man?

[Palerider]

no....actually I was thinking Kennedy...just my opinion

[Elphaba]

Elf, for a heads up, what is the limit for sharing liberal ideas on this forum? The ability to talk about these things is apparently much more open than MAD, but I suspect is more constrained than Mormon Discussions.

You got me Moksha. It's nothing like MAD. However, once you have offended certain people here, you have to watch your step, and IMO, it seems very subjective. I've seen others say things far more offensive than what I've said, and I have been both banned and put on mod status, and all they will tell me is that I am "contentious."

It's sort of like trying to convince Pahoran he's much more offensive than Severian. On the other hand, Polygamy Porter wouldn't last through the afternoon, and to be honest, that's just fine with me. Frankly, it is a huge relief not to have to deal with either one of them. They both make me ill.

I say go for it. I think you'll be fine. But don't expect anyone to actually READ what you write. My opinion is that most of the people who will engage you in the Current Events section are very conservative, and are not interested in discussion. At first I thought they were, and it took me a while to realize they just were interesting in besting me, not real discussion. When I wasn't "bested," that's when I became "contentious." At least that's my impression. I really can't get a good feel for that.

But you're much more diplomatic than I. So, please, come aboard. To be honest, I love it here, and you will fit in really well.

Elphaba

[FrankJL]

My opinion is that most of the people who will engage you in the Current Events section are very conservative, and are not interested in discussion.

I read your short posts, but the longer ones get cut and pasted into my text to speech program, and I do other stuff while listening to them.

[Elphaba]

My opinion is that most of the people who will engage you in the Current Events section are very conservative, and are not interested in discussion.

I read your short posts, but the longer ones get cut and pasted into my text to speech program, and I do other stuff while listening to them.

I am very glad to hear it.

So did you pay attention when you were listening?

BTW, I feel like you and I did have some interesting discussions.

Elphaba

[Fiannan]

If you want to look at someone who doesn't believe in traditional American values, look at your own president and VP.

Care to share reasons you believe this?

I will:

1. Lied about WMD.

Did he intentionally do this? Strange, even Democrats in the 1990s were worried about WMDs in Iraq.

2. Unilaterally invaded a sovereign nation without provocation and justification.

Clinton did what to Serbia?

3. Lied during State of the Union speech re: Niger Uranium.

Opps, quoted British intelligence and again, was it a lie or a mistake by the former?

4. Responsible for pre-9/11 intelligence failures in White House, CIA, FBI.

Care to ellaborate?

5. Allowed 9-11 murderers to remain free while diverting precious military and financial resources to his vanity war in Iraq.

How many Al Quaida leaders have died in the last several years?

6. Lied about Saddam/bin Laden connection.

Care to supply a source?

7. Turned Iraq into a terrorist breeding ground.

Can't deny that. Also created climate that allowed average Iraqi people the right to vote.

8. Lied about nation-building.

How many contractors do we haved in Iraq right now? How many international agencies are helping the Iraqi people?

9. Opposed creation of 9-11 Commission and Homeland Security Department.

Don't have time right now to look that up.

10. Disrespected and alienated the U.S. from French, German and other key allies.

Or was that the other way around? The only thing I will give you is that Clinton and Bush both have alienated the Russians -- but the Euroweenies?

11. Lied to Americans about the real cost of war.

Again, lied?

12. Fostered an environment of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

What's your source...Michael Moore? Isn't it ironic that the prisoners at Abu Ghraib begged the US not to leave and were scared to death when the Iraqi police took over the institution?

13. Lined Halliburton's pockets in Afghanistan and Iraq with fat no-bid contracts.

The boogie man of the left.

14. Under-manned and under-equipped our armed forces in Iraq, resulting in unnecessary death and injuries.

Perhaps.

15. Shunned Kyoto Treaty.

Strange, the US senate rejected the Kyoto Treaty by 98 to zero in 1998.

16. Lied about effects of man-made pollutants on the environment to support corporate pals.

Should have gotten his research data from GreenPeace, right?

17. Lied about the insolvency of Social Security.

Just wait for the babyboomers to retire.

Opps, gotta go. However, you have listed your gripes but failed to show why your disagreements with Bush means he is against the Constitution or fundamental American values.

[Moksha]

It's sort of like trying to convince Pahoran he's much more offensive than Severian. On the other hand, Polygamy Porter wouldn't last through the afternoon, and to be honest, that's just fine with me. Frankly, it is a huge relief not to have to deal with either one of them. They both make me ill.

Elphaba

I will assume you were referring to Pahoran and Polygamy Porter and not sweet lovable Severian as the culprits.... Those first two do get rather rambunctious.

Thanks for your reassurance BTW about posting. When I see too many staunchly conservative posts I get worried and think maybe a pogrom might be in the offing.

[Elphaba]

I will assume you were referring to Pahoran and Polygamy Porter and not sweet lovable Severian as the culprits.... Those first two do get rather rambunctious.

Oh, no doubt. I adore Severian.

I just needed someone as opposite as opposite could be to Pahoran for my little demonstration.

Thanks for your reassurance BTW about posting. When I see too many staunchly conservative posts I get worried and think maybe a pogrom might be in the offing.

I have complained a time or two that I am a sole David against many Goliaths.

I noticed Dror came out as a liberal as well. Could it be we could demonstrate we are not the vile, sinister sneering monsters the conservatives believe us to be? (Oh, no, I sound just like Pahoran!)

Elphaba

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'>

If you want to look at someone who doesn't believe in traditional American values, look at your own president and VP.

Care to share reasons you believe this?

I will:

1. Lied about WMD.

2. Unilaterally invaded a sovereign nation without provocation and justification.

3. Lied during State of the Union speech re: Niger Uranium.

4. Responsible for pre-9/11 intelligence failures in White House, CIA, FBI.

5. Allowed 9-11 murderers to remain free while diverting precious military and financial resources to his vanity war in Iraq.

6. Lied about Saddam/bin Laden connection.

7. Turned Iraq into a terrorist breeding ground.

8. Lied about nation-building.

9. Opposed creation of 9-11 Commission and Homeland Security Department.

10. Disrespected and alienated the U.S. from French, German and other key allies.

11. Lied to Americans about the real cost of war.

12. Fostered an environment of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

13. Lined Halliburton's pockets in Afghanistan and Iraq with fat no-bid contracts.

14. Under-manned and under-equipped our armed forces in Iraq, resulting in unnecessary death and injuries.

15. Shunned Kyoto Treaty.

16. Lied about effects of man-made pollutants on the environment to support corporate pals.

17. Lied about the insolvency of Social Security.

18. Gave huge cuts to the wealthiest taxpayers.

19. Lied about true cost of health care bill.

20. Bitterly divided the nation along religious, party and sexual preference lines.

21. Guilty of numerous cronyism appointments (Homeland Security, Supreme Court, etc)

22. Rewarded failures of Condi Rice and other cronies with key promotions.

23. Dreadful energy policies lead to record gas and oil prices.

24. Responsible for the largest debt in U.S. history.

25. Colossal failure of preparedness, rescue and relief during Hurricane Katrina.

26. Fostered a culture of corruption among GOP and top leadership (Tom Delay, etc).

27. Presided over the U.S.'s lowest popularity throughout the world.

28. Saw No Child Left Behind fail.

I'm not done putting my list together, but I'll be back with more. There's just so much to choose from, and I'm trying to be concise.

Elphaba

What kind of a list do you think your boy Clinton would have

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

If you want to look at someone who doesn't believe in traditional American values, look at your own president and VP.

Care to share reasons you believe this?

I will:

1. Lied about WMD.

2. Unilaterally invaded a sovereign nation without provocation and justification.

3. Lied during State of the Union speech re: Niger Uranium.

4. Responsible for pre-9/11 intelligence failures in White House, CIA, FBI.

5. Allowed 9-11 murderers to remain free while diverting precious military and financial resources to his vanity war in Iraq.

6. Lied about Saddam/bin Laden connection.

7. Turned Iraq into a terrorist breeding ground.

8. Lied about nation-building.

9. Opposed creation of 9-11 Commission and Homeland Security Department.

10. Disrespected and alienated the U.S. from French, German and other key allies.

11. Lied to Americans about the real cost of war.

12. Fostered an environment of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

13. Lined Halliburton's pockets in Afghanistan and Iraq with fat no-bid contracts.

14. Under-manned and under-equipped our armed forces in Iraq, resulting in unnecessary death and injuries.

15. Shunned Kyoto Treaty.

16. Lied about effects of man-made pollutants on the environment to support corporate pals.

17. Lied about the insolvency of Social Security.

18. Gave huge cuts to the wealthiest taxpayers.

19. Lied about true cost of health care bill.

20. Bitterly divided the nation along religious, party and sexual preference lines.

21. Guilty of numerous cronyism appointments (Homeland Security, Supreme Court, etc)

22. Rewarded failures of Condi Rice and other cronies with key promotions.

23. Dreadful energy policies lead to record gas and oil prices.

24. Responsible for the largest debt in U.S. history.

25. Colossal failure of preparedness, rescue and relief during Hurricane Katrina.

26. Fostered a culture of corruption among GOP and top leadership (Tom Delay, etc).

27. Presided over the U.S.'s lowest popularity throughout the world.

28. Saw No Child Left Behind fail.

I'm not done putting my list together, but I'll be back with more. There's just so much to choose from, and I'm trying to be concise.

Elphaba

What kind of a list do you think your boy Clinton would haveI have already acknowledged on this board that he lied, and admitted to lying, about raising taxes. Additionally I acknowledged he lied to the special counsel about Monica Lewinsky.

Other than that, I'm sure there are additional items, but nothing close to the number of Bush's lies.

Nevertheless, you're the one who keeps calling him the liar, not me. You write the list.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Pale,

I hope you see this in time.

I wanted to add to my list of Clinton's "lies." You and I have already discussed them, including my disgust with feminists' lack of censure of him for his behavior.

I believe he lied about Gennifer Flowers and Paula Jones, and of course Monica Lewinski. If you can think of any other women that came forth, let me know. I can't think of any others at the moment.

So you don't need to add them to your list. I so stipulate!

Elphaba

[Moksha]

Pale,

I hope you see this in time.

I wanted to add to my list of Clinton's "lies." You and I have already discussed them, including my disgust with feminists' lack of censure of him for his behavior.

I believe he lied about Gennifer Flowers and Paula Jones, and of course Monica Lewinski. If you can think of any other women that came forth, let me know. I can't think of any others at the moment.

So you don't need to add them to your list. I so stipulate!

Elphaba

Elf, do you think it is possible to forgive a leader linked to sexual peccadilloes?

[Doctor Steuss]

Those are all liberal positions. How many of them do you hold?

If only the ADL was around to see this caricature.

I wanted to add to my list of Clinton's "lies."

I saw a bumper-sticker a while back that said "No one died when Clinton lied." It was on a Hummer though, so I summarily dismissed the intelligence of the driver.