ward implications of breast implants

[Guest]

Sometimes, people have body image issues.

That's the fault of the world.

Sometimes, those body image issues can be resolved by breast implants.

Most often they can not. If you want to stop breast implants, then help all women to feel beautiful regardless of what the world says..

If you can't do that, then don't be surprised that some people want to change the way they look.

See, Funky. Comments like these really make me wonder why you're still single. If I had a daughter, I'd write you a contract right now.

[UrbanFool]

If someone in my ward got breast implants, I would not even notice. It would have to be REALLY drastic. Why is everyone looking at everyone else's boobs? Just get a really decent bra that fits right. It makes all the difference --trust me.

[FunkyTown]

If someone in my ward got breast implants, I would not even notice. It would have to be REALLY drastic. Why is everyone looking at everyone else's boobs? Just get a really decent bra that fits right. It makes all the difference --trust me.

Quoted for truth. England has, I have noticed, on average larger cup sizes than North America. They even had a news article on it. This doesn't mean the women are more attractive.

With the prevalence of the 'Booty-shorts over stockings and ultra-tight T-shirt' look, you get to see that not knowing how to dress really does make a big impact in how attractive someone is.

[Elgama]

If someone in my ward got breast implants, I would not even notice. It would have to be REALLY drastic. Why is everyone looking at everyone else's boobs? Just get a really decent bra that fits right. It makes all the difference --trust me.

boob envy is alive and well lol I'm with you though I don't pay that much attention to other people.

[NeuroTypical]

such personal decisions can really affect wards in negative ways – especially when the women who get them, or supporting husbands, are considered “really good members.”

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personal decisions can have a negative affect other others.

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These women (and supporting men) can create a cancer at church (although church is a hospital for the sinners – and we are all sinners).

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it had a real negative effect on the ward.

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This actually had a negative influence on the young women of the ward

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“well, sister __________ got them and she is righteous, so what is wrong with it?”

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one young woman got breast implants – which them caused more problems in the YM program.

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All six of the women were “good members” of the ward.

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What I learned from this is that when very good LDS members get implants they can be more destructive than less active people because other members see their actions as validating and credible.

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these women’s actions caused harm to others

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made women with smaller breasts feel ‘less than’

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created tension between daughters and parents

So, let me offer a rather strong response.

Of all the agency-denying immaturity-worshiping innapropriate-blame-assigning garbage I've ever heard, this one takes the cake. So what, nobody is responsible for their own maturity? If you can stick quotes around "good members", it somehow makes you a helpless slave, forced to do what they're doing? If you notice yourself struggling with something you see, the sole blame rests upon person you're looking at? If you notice yourself 'feeling less than' when standing next to someone with more, the problem rests with them and not you?

I mean yes, people's actions influence other people. But all those quotes above seem to indicate that people are somehow forced into inappropriate action by others. There's no mention of personal responsibility.

Yeah, feelings can be caused by others. But what you do with the feelings is up to you. Nobody "made" this string of people follow in each other's footsteps - they chose to do it. Nobody tied them to a table and forced surgery on them. The fault/blame/consequences rest with the people making the choices - not the people influencing the choices.

I mean, I'm sorry your ward is full of grown ups with teenager maturity levels, but such a situation is hardly unique - and hardly limited to the subject of implants. A more commonly talked about issue is living outside of our means to appear as affluent as our neighbors. Similar issue. If I live in a neighborhood full of opulence, it's still my decision about the stuff I buy.

This really does seem to be a big case of ducking responsibility here. It doesn't matter how plastic and artificial the people around you are - you are responsible for how you react to them. Yeah, so you pick up a phone and make an appointment with a surgeon and go to the doc appointments and pick out your new look and write the checks and show up for the surgery. It's someone's fault that this happened - but news flash: it's not the fault of the people surrounding this person.

Peer pressure stinks. You have to be mature to not let it get to you. The solution isn't to harp on the immature people and demand they stop being immature. The solution is individual responsibility - you worry about your maturity.

LM

[UrbanFool]

Quoted for truth. England has, I have noticed, on average larger cup sizes than North America. They even had a news article on it. This doesn't mean the women are more attractive.

Maybe they just have better bras!

[justaname]

Also if you have not yet had children once you have breast implants you can no longer breastfeed.

This is simply not true. My wife has implants and breastfed all three of our children. The last two were post implants. There are several ways of performing the surgery, a couple of which still maintain a woman's ability to breastfeed.

[Tarnished]

This is simply not true. My wife has implants and breastfed all three of our children. The last two were post implants. There are several ways of performing the surgery, a couple of which still maintain a woman's ability to breastfeed.

I did not know that. Good to know. Not that I would want implants, I would actually prefer to go a cup smaller than a cup larger.

[justaname]

Before I comment further, let me publicly state that I do take this issue personally so my views are likely slanted.

My wife has implants. I have had plastic surgery myself. We are what the OP has referred to as "good" members. I dont know what that connotation means. Perhaps it is suggested that we are perceived as good because we come to church, pay our tithing, do our home/visiting teaching and maintain callings and have temple recommends. Or maybe we are considered "good" because she has had implants and I have had plastic surgery. The reference to "good" mormons/members makes me think that the OP is implying that we are putting on a show by going through be motions but because we have chosen to modify our bodies we are no longer good. Is that what is being said or am I misinterpreting? Either way, Ill choose not to be offended.

I want to collaborate on what the OP has indicated may be happening when it comes to the social impact of having breast implants. She is indeed correct that there are social impacts. After having our first child, my wife considered getting implants. After finding out that one of her friends and co-leaders in the YW had them done, she decided she would do it. She considered it for a long time but feared she might lose her calling or people would think poorly of her. After seeing that someone else that had implants was still in YW and had a great reputation in the ward, she decided to do it. Since having that done, other women have asked her about it. Many of them have found comfort in the fact that a "good" member has done it and they have decided to do it too. So yes, in a small nutshell, people do validate their behavior based on other peoples actions.

I guess what bothers me so much about this particular topic is the fact there is a notion that a woman who has breast implants or wants them is somehow less than a woman who chooses not to. With some, there is clearly an indication that these women have somehow sinned or have succumbed to the natural man and are hell bent on their appearance beyond all else. For any of you who think this, whether you admit it or not, shame on you.

There is no stereotype of a woman who gets implants. Not all of them are seeking the attention of men or women, or seeking the cover of Cosmo. They are not all heading down to Golds in their new little sports bra's to show their new purchase. Some of them might be, but not all of them are. Some of you have said that this procedure is ok if its the result of cancer or other disfiguring issue. How is this situation any different than the routine implants? A woman who has lost her breasts to cancer is wanting nothing more than to look and feel like a woman. Having the implants after cancer is likely (I say likely because am no surgeon) not going to recreate the woman's ability to breast feed. So what is she having the implants for? Is it not to look like a woman and restore that same feeling she had before she lost her breasts? In the case of my wife, she didnt have much there to begin with. When she breastfed, she lost what little she had. So, like a cancer patient, she wanted a feeling of restoration. She wanted to look like a woman again. Yes, I said the word "look". It is about looking like a woman, which in turn makes her feel like a woman. It is not the ONLY think that makes her feel like a woman, but it is something. In both scenarios, the surgery is performed to enhance the body and is based on a view that women are supposed to have breasts. Yes there are some that decide to get stripper boobs. I wont speak for that.

The very idea that someone who alters their appearance to satisfy the cultural view of beauty, is a "sinner" is utterly ridiculous. For anyone who disagrees with me, I beg you. . . go to church this week with your hair undone, your make-up off and put on your brown boots with your black skirt. Its all part of a show that every single one of us does every day to feel attractive and beautiful. Some obsess about it and others do not. Those who obsess probably should focus on something more righteous. Those who do not obsess about it still do something everyday to enhance their appearance. This doesnt make them a sinner.

If a girl in the YW in our ward has decided to get a boob job because my wife did, so what. Let her get a boob job. No one has said the boob job is wrong. What is wrong is defining yourself by vanities and worldliness. If she lets her boobs define who she is, that's her fault and no one elses. If you want to think that someone who gets a boob job is less of a woman, thats your choice and you will answer for it. How will you answer for it? I dont know. Not my call.

[Suzie]

How weird. Looking at other women's boobs? What is next? The booty? Geez. If they are bothered by it, they are probably staring too much.

[Guest]

I did not know that. Good to know. Not that I would want implants, I would actually prefer to go a cup smaller than a cup larger.

Not all people who undergo breast correction surgery wants it larger. A lot of people - I don't have time to look up the statistics - just wants to look normal.

A popular girl who had it done is Soleil Moon-Frye (Punky Brewster). She had super gigantic boobs for her size that she went through hell as a teen trying to fight the "sexual symbol" image. She finally relented and got a reduction.

I had a neighbor in the Philippines who suffered the same condition. For a tiny Filipino girl of no more than 5' in height, her giant boobs, courtesy of her part-American genetics, was so "in your face". She gained so much weight - way into obese territory - in her late teens to mask her breasts. It was easier for her to deal with being called fat than being called <i can't repeat it in this forum>. Her health suffered.

People are people. Yes, it is wrong for people to be so destructive to other people's psyche. But, this thread itself is a testament to the instinctive human judgement aimed at society.

If you can somehow alleviate that psychological abuse through the advancement of medicine as an option, I couldn't really fault you for that. Although, I would have rather you build your psych so that you can field the abuse and rise above it intact without having to risk surgery.

Now, this is completely different from those who undergo the procedure to attract the attention of men. I somehow don't see this as the main reason a righteous, active, ward member would have for undergoing the procedure. Especially in a church that frown upon more than 1 pair of earings. But, I could be wrong.

[Matthew0059]

To everyone who blames the ward members themselves for the division of the ward:

Can I grow my hair long and shaggy, wear an old and dirty T-shirt with giant pit stains and raggedy jeans, stop showering for a month, go to Church, and blame everyone else who gets frustrated/angry with me because they should use their agency to find it in their hearts to forgive my inappropriate choice of dress?

Think really hard about that one, because I have the best answers for why your response (whatever it is) is wrong.

[Elgama]

To everyone who blames the ward members themselves for the division of the ward:

Can I grow my hair long and shaggy, wear an old and dirty T-shirt with giant pit stains and raggedy jeans, stop showering for a month, go to Church, and blame everyone else who gets frustrated/angry with me because they should use their agency to find it in their hearts to forgive my inappropriate choice of dress?

Think really hard about that one, because I have the best answers for why your response (whatever it is) is wrong.

why should it affect me aside from the niff but you won't be the first young male to have forgotten what a shower is;)

[UrbanFool]

To everyone who blames the ward members themselves for the division of the ward:

Can I grow my hair long and shaggy, wear an old and dirty T-shirt with giant pit stains and raggedy jeans, stop showering for a month, go to Church, and blame everyone else who gets frustrated/angry with me because they should use their agency to find it in their hearts to forgive my inappropriate choice of dress?

Hopefully, the rest of the congregation wouldn't follow suit!

[Matthew0059]

why should it affect me aside from the niff but you won't be the first young male to have forgotten what a shower is;)

Never mind, I have no response. I was going to play a drawn out game to teach a principle here, but I'm too tired.

In essence, when someone blatantly defies the warnings and advice from inspired Church leaders, it has a largely detrimental effect on the "flock" (ward) that rebel is with. A truly Zion people have "all [material] things in common". While there would be some pride present among the members of the ward who get frustrated with the breast implants, that doesn't excuse the vanity of purely cosmetic implants.

Even getting them to find a more positive social image (to avoid stereotyping of a "sex object" if a woman's breasts are big, or to improve self-esteem if the breasts are small), it is for the world- not for the LORD- that the woman is getting them. In otherwords, it is because of vanity (gratifying one's pride).

So who's in the wrong?

The more important question is: who's in the right? Are any of them?

[Elgama]

Never mind, I have no response. I was going to play a drawn out game to teach a principle here, but I'm too tired.

In essence, when someone blatantly defies the warnings and advice from inspired Church leaders, it has a largely detrimental effect on the "flock" (ward) that rebel is with. A truly Zion people have "all [material] things in common". While there would be some pride present among the members of the ward who get frustrated with the breast implants, that doesn't excuse the vanity of purely cosmetic implants.

Even getting them to find a more positive social image (to avoid stereotyping of a "sex object" if a woman's breasts are big, or to improve self-esteem if the breasts are small), it is for the world- not for the LORD- that the woman is getting them. In otherwords, it is because of vanity (gratifying one's pride).

So who's in the wrong?

The more important question is: who's in the right? Are any of them?

Well I just know I would rather have a ward full of women with boob jobs, and unwashed teens in jeans. Than a ward that has so little love for each other they have to complain about another woman's mammory glands.

[Matthew0059]

Well I just know I would rather have a ward full of women with boob jobs, and unwashed teens in jeans. Than a ward that has so little love for each other they have to complain about another woman's mammory glands.

Are they complaining about her breasts- or her worldly desires to have more sexually enticing breasts; or to gain acceptance from the world?

Oftimes it is love for another that moves us to concern when we see them commit folly. Contention is of the devil, but I think an anxiousness that all should have eternal life through CHRIST is charity- and being pained when others sin is part of that anxiousness.

That the members of the ward allowed a division to occur and themselves to be split, is tragic. We don't know the whole story though- judging them as shallow and unloving is as great a folly as the one they are accused of.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Matthew0059

[Suzie]

It is for the world- not for the LORD- that the woman is getting them. In otherwords, it is because of vanity (gratifying one's pride).

Just curious, are you married?

Then with this logic, every woman in the Church should not dye her hair or highlight it, wear jewelry or put make up on.

[bl8tant]

With the prevalence of the 'Booty-shorts over stockings and ultra-tight T-shirt' look, you get to see that not knowing how to dress really does make a big impact in how attractive someone is.

Maybe you should try wearing different clothes then :)

[Elgama]

That the members of the ward allowed a division to occur and themselves to be split, is tragic. We don't know the whole story though- judging them as shallow and unloving is as great a folly as the one they are accused of.

I'm not judging anyone as shallow except I do find the original post shallow. But not sure how coveting another womans ass or boobs is loving each other either?

Like I said in my post I would much rather have a bunch of people dressed inappropriatly that treated each other right than someone who looks the pillar of community but can't welcome a new face into the ward or offer support to another. You don't need a suit to love each other. Sure the ideal is to do both, but objecting or following a fashion is not down to the first person that decided to have their appearance altered.

[dash77]

Crazy Potato:

Your comments are great and let me provide an answer to your question regarding why members will still not follow the explicit counsel of General Authorities regard not going for body modifications and staying away from the over-sexualized woman image. The answer is that these members know more than General Authorities and can find all sorts of ways to rationalize such behaviors. Justaname exemplifies this.

Justaname:

I do appreciate your comments and they support the topic I have outlined that individual actions really do affect others and the ward implications of a single woman's actions. However, I think the linkage of your wife's breast implants to another women with cancer is ridiculous. One is a real medical issue (e.g., mastectomy) and the other is not. You are rationalizing a behavior that Elder Holland has clearly outlined is not appropriate and can harm others.

With this said, however, I have always supported reconstructive surgery that is oriented toward remedying illness, accident, and abnormalities. If you wife was completely flat, I would honestly see this as an abnormality that is focused on reconstructive surgery. However, I do not know where the line is between an abnormality in size. I know an AA cup means breast are smaller, what I do not know is what size is too small to be considered an abnormality. This is a blurred line. At the same time, however, I know of women who have used an abnormality as a rationalize when there was not not (e.g., not perfect symmetry).

In my mind, Elder Holland counsel is very straight forward -- but I guess you know more than him. I have also learned that most, if not all, cosmetic oriented breast implants are based on the concept of coveting. It might be coveting a Hollywood star, or it might be coveting one's own past image, but it is an action of coveting and as you outlined, it causes problems for others.

The other aspects is that as a man, I know that I do not understand the emotional aspects of being a smaller-breasted women, in which even when dressed modesty, such women can be the end of jokes and mockery. Sadly, there are too many men (both in and outside of the Church) that find average to larger size breast attractive. My point is that although I disagree with you, I do not want to undermine the emotional aspects and I may lack real life experience in this areas because I'm male.

Loudmouth:

I agree with part of what you are suggesting. Part of being a responsible person is taking personal responsibility. The other part is developing social responsibility. Your thinking seem to have the first part, but is lacking the latter. I have heard countless General Authorities counsel us as member to stand in Holy places because the environment affects us. In the field of psychology, one of the most credible learning theories is called social learning theory, which posits that much of our behaviors are learned from our environments. I can agree with you that all people need to take personal responsibility, but the part I would challenge you on is to think beyond yourself (which is personal responsibility) and think more broadly in understanding how your very actions can affect other people, for good or bad. Think beyond the entity of the self – which is what the Savior exemplified.

[Elgama]

dash are you perfect in everyway? Is a boob job the ideal no but I am sure I have done much worse in my life. What has happened in your ward is everyone has made an udol of several womens sets of boobs. Not sure why that is fault entirelt of those with silicone>?

Personally I'd love to have a person with fake boobs come and do home or visiting teaching as its been 13 years since I've had a regular monthly visit from anyone. Or when I go yo a chapel I'll take the one with big lips who says hi my name is come and sit with me,

[Suzie]

It seems almost like an obsession.

So what about the rich brother who drives he latest porsche to Church? Will he be the cause of contention and "cancer" in the ward after all there are so many poor saints or those who cannot afford such luxury and they may put themselves in debt in order to get one?

We do not have control over people's choices but we DO have a choice over our reaction over their choices.

If ANYONE feels they have to get a boob job after seeing someone in Church get one, then there is something really wrong (and it has nothing to do with the piece of silicone).

[Matthew0059]

Just curious, are you married?

Then with this logic, every woman in the Church should not dye her hair or highlight it, wear jewelry or put make up on.

That's not quite accurate. I don't see a problem with minor accessorizing to accentuate one's natural beauty- it is to accentuate sexuality that I have a problem with. Personally, I like my girls' face with minimal or no makeup, natural hair color, small earrings (if any), no more than 1-2 rings on her fingers... As I said before, though, the key difference between breast implants and what you've listed is the aspect of appearance being enhanced.

I believe a lot of what members take for granted that isn't sin actually is.

And no, I'm not married. Not that I'm not trying...

[Matthew0059]

I'm not judging anyone as shallow except I do find the original post shallow. But not sure how coveting another womans ass or boobs is loving each other either?

I'm not sure I follow. To my knowledge, the rift in the ward in discussion is over the appropriateness of the breast implants. While some may covet and therefore be jealous and, in their jealousy, oppose the implants, that's not the major issue.

And you are making judgments of the people in the ward. Perhaps you don't say they're "shallow", but you have made it known that you'd "rather [live in] a ward full of women with boob jobs, and unwashed teens in jeans. Than a ward that has so little love for each other they have to complain about another woman's mammory glands". Behind that sentence is the conclusion that any ward that is divided so is a ward full of people lacking in a key Christlike attribute- love.

The kicker is that you may be right- yet in your "rightness" you make assumptions based on incomplete data to come to a harsh conclusion and, ironically, do the exact thing you accuse them of. My main contention is that jumping all the way to the other side of the argument- that cosmetic breast jobs are totally fine- is just as wrong. In the OP's scenario, the ward may very well be full of shallow people who don't love each other- but that doesn't vindicate the woman.

Does that all make sense? I'm tired and might not be thinking straight.