Assuming G/L marriage becomes law of the land

[carlimac]

The problem again is in assuming that they would get this. Even LDS families are proven to not always last, not show normal role models, cause massive confusion.

Man and woman does not assure a good mother and father. Just by having mom and dad present doesn't always help children. Divorce and custody battle happen quite often. That's a heterosexual thing in most places. Parents fighting and bickering with out concern of damage being done to the kids. Parents working too much and leaving the kids in the care of others, lol some times a gay man who raises them from the time they wake up til the time he puts them to bed and is the only adult they have constant contact with.

The confusion you talk about, can you site where you find that kids raised in gay homes are this confused as to show they can't grow up happy and well adjusted?

Normal in today's world for a family tends to seem to mean step parent and step siblings and trying to fight to fit in in a place that's not home causing confusion and heart break, or a working parent trying to support their children leaving the kids in the care of others, or loveless marriages full of bickering and anger that drive kids to seek escapes. So while the picture perfect male/female happy home is a wonderful idea, i'm not sure it's normal or common in today's world.

As for which doesn't seem necessary, ask the number of single parents who are not really looking to get married and who really could care less if their children's other parents was ever in their child's lives again, we have a few on this board, or have family members of such people on this board who support keeping the other parent out of their child's lives for good reasons.

Well in that case, lets not let ANY hetero couple adopt if they are so terribly at risk for all this rotten stuff to happen. Surely gay/lesbian couples are immune to all that. Protect the children! Give em to gays!!

(Sarcasm intended)

[carlimac]

OK assuming those of us on this board who are debating this hold to the principles of the gospel as spelled out by the Proclamation to the World and the words of our prophet, how then would we justify letting our children possibly be raised by a gay or lesbian couple (as in- if I die I want a g/l couple to raise them) when children learn more from adult example than anything. Why would anyone want their children to have to face that huge obstacle in learning right from wrong if they are being raised by loving but blatantly sinful people? I RECOGNIZE that no one is perfect. I'm not. My kids probably get the wrong idea from me on a daily basis. But my imperfections don't have anything to do with the really big commandment type sins. And they don't fly directly in the face of the Proclamation.

It's really late and I'm not making much sense. Butone more try. It just seems like those of us who have genuine testimonies of the the LDS gospel see this in a completely different way than those who don't believe the prophet or church doctrine on this matter. Every argument for allowing children to be adopted or raised by gay parents follows the world view. Every argument for not allowing them to be raised by by gays follows the Lord's view.

I have no doubt that there are many loving and kind gay and lesbian people who would make excellent parents. But the problem lies in the messages kids will pick up from them. Gays, lesbians, and liberals think that message is just fine and won't hurt kids and actually will help them to be open minded, accepting of all people, more loving, etc... That isn't a bad message. But the message that it's OK to act on your urges, to not resist temptation to actively deny the principles of the Gospel is a very dangerous and confusing message to give kids. That incorrect message trumps the good stuff. And THAT will ultimately hurt them spiritually.

Edited August 20, 2010 by carlimac

[Elgama]

OK assuming those of us on this board who are debating this hold to the principles of the gospel as spelled out by the Proclamation to the World and the words of our prophet, how then would we justify letting our children possibly be raised by a gay or lesbian couple (as in- if I die I wasnt a g/l couple to raise them) when children learn more from adult example than anything. Why would anyone want their children to have to face that huge obstacle in learning right from wrong if they are being raised by loving but blatantly sinful people? I RECOGNIZE that no one is perfect. I'm not. My kids probably get the wrong idea from me on a daily basis. But my imperfections don't have anything to do with the really big commandment type sins.

If I die and my husband dies, then yes I want a gay man and if he has one a partner to raise my children. I can think of noone I would rather do that. I can think of noone I would trust more to do it right and adore them. He even took the discussion lessons, attends family home evening occasionally, accepts the missionaries into his home, attends church for their major milestones because he has commited to this, and so he can encourage them as LDS. That is a massive sacrifice for him. Personally I don't understand a parent rejecting the person they trust most to love their children, care for them and keep them safe.

I'm sorry but my friend didn't learn how to be gay from his parents, he actually comes from the most stable married couple of my teen group of kids. He is gay always has been. No more than I decided to marry a man because my mother is a lesbian. Its is something you are or you are not unless you are bisexual.

My friend is the best human being I can think of, all round the attributes he teaches my children are better than any heterosexual person I can think of. I'm sorry I just don't understand why a gay couple cannot raise a healthy, happy well balanced child. To be honest I would rather have someone loving and tolerant than some of the straight people who spout about how only heterosexual couples can raise happy contented children, because its not true. Plenty of hereosexual people make lousy parents.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Elgama

[Gwen]

i don't think the point was that no traditional relationships are capable of being good parents. the idea is that there are good and bad relationships on all parts of the spectrum. that it's presumptuous to assume a couple is good or bad based totally on gender.

the church teaches a principle of opposites. we are in this world to learn sorrow and pain and trial so we may know the good. we can not know joy without knowing the opposite. i think that's part of the reason god entrusts us to raise up his children. he knows that as parents we will not be perfect, we will often set the bad example along with the good. as we grow up we figure out the traditions from our parents we want to keep and pass on and the things we want to reject. the reality is that even from all those "bad" traditional homes kids grow up fairly well. they figure it out. a lot of good can come from a "bad" situation. are you dismissing god's power and influence over that individual life?

sometimes i think in many ways my testimony would have been easier to figure out and develop had i had more blatant bad examples from the adults in my life. instead the examples i had were subtle wrongs coming from "strong" church members. when i was very young i thought that was "the right way" and it contributed a lot to where i am today. as i grew i realized that's not how things were supposed to be. but if that's not what god wanted, not what the church taught then why were these ppl being accepted by the church, being told on all accounts they were doing things right? that's hard for a developing testimony to figure out.

my point is that if 2 ppl can raise a child to be decent, give them basic principles of right and wrong, teach them what a healthy interpersonal relationships should be like, teach them to be balanced thinking rational adults... then i have no doubt that god can take such a person and help them become the person he wants them to be. if he has a perfect plan that can save the crack babies raised in homes infused with drugs, if he can save the kid that's raised with abuse at every turn, then he can save the kid who is raised in a less than perfect lds home, he can save the kid that's raised in a broken home, he can save the kid that's raised by same gender couples, he can save the kid who spends their entire life in the system and never has a family. truth be told none of us come from an ideal or perfect home. there is no such thing. we all need saving. stopping gays from adopting won't stop same gender couples from raising kids, that's already happening. it will stop the ones who are playing within the rules. ppl who live within the rules are frequently the ones most suited to raising good kids. there are a lot of kids out there who need a family to love them. the more good willing parents you allow to be considered the better off i believe those kids will be.

[Soulsearcher]

OK assuming those of us on this board who are debating this hold to the principles of the gospel as spelled out by the Proclamation to the World and the words of our prophet, how then would we justify letting our children possibly be raised by a gay or lesbian couple (as in- if I die I want a g/l couple to raise them) when children learn more from adult example than anything. Why would anyone want their children to have to face that huge obstacle in learning right from wrong if they are being raised by loving but blatantly sinful people? I RECOGNIZE that no one is perfect. I'm not. My kids probably get the wrong idea from me on a daily basis. But my imperfections don't have anything to do with the really big commandment type sins. And they don't fly directly in the face of the Proclamation.

It's really late and I'm not making much sense. Butone more try. It just seems like those of us who have genuine testimonies of the the LDS gospel see this in a completely different way than those who don't believe the prophet or church doctrine on this matter. Every argument for allowing children to be adopted or raised by gay parents follows the world view. Every argument for not allowing them to be raised by by gays follows the Lord's view.

I have no doubt that there are many loving and kind gay and lesbian people who would make excellent parents. But the problem lies in the messages kids will pick up from them. Gays, lesbians, and liberals think that message is just fine and won't hurt kids and actually will help them to be open minded, accepting of all people, more loving, etc... That isn't a bad message. But the message that it's OK to act on your urges, to not resist temptation to actively deny the principles of the Gospel is a very dangerous and confusing message to give kids. That incorrect message trumps the good stuff. And THAT will ultimately hurt them spiritually.

As i remember You were the mother that has to stop and think if she'd go to the wedding of her child if it was a same sex wedding. Talk about a confusing message to your children. I love you but i love the gospel more and on your happiest of days i don't want to be any where near you. If you think that won't confuse someone think again. Just because people "live" the gospel doesn't mean they will teach their children well or impart good values, I've seen plenty of messed up LDS kids thanks to their parents.

It worries me that you have a clouded view of what a same sex family would teach a child. You think we'll teach to give in to all urges and live lives that teach no control. Personally I'm quite old fashioned. I've had LDS people tell me to "just go get laid" and i refuse because for me intimate relationships come with a long term loving relationship. I'd impart that in my kids just like i did in the kids i helped raise. There are lots of good kids raised with out the gospel who are amazing and good kids. Kids can be raised with out the gospel and turn out just as good if not better than kids raised with it, from that point they can make the choice instead of being raised with very little choice. The fact that it seems only the gospel can be used ot teach right and wrong behaviors is kinda sad because even when it's used it doesn't mean a perfect success rate.

Some people don't hold the gospel to be true, and some for very good reason, this doesn't make them less good. I'll never follow the gospel and yet most people who meet me think I'm a religious fanatic for the way i live my life lol. The way i live my life is sickening sweet to a lot of people, i don't drink, refuse to do drugs, rarely swear, don't sleep around, help people every chance i get, look out for any one and every one, do more service than i can keep track of, help charities when i can, and these are the things you worry about me teaching kids? People can form good morals away from the gospel as wel las an appreciation of the world that i find some holders of the gospel don't have and could use. You say the worldly things are bad, but understanding them and having your eyes open to them and seeing what's truly bad vs what people just don't want to understand are very different.

Also to add that there's a good chance these hetero couples adopting might be agnostic, atheist, pagan, or some other faith that contradicts the gospel in any number of way or embraces a lifestyle that could cause greater harm spiritually. So if we restrict government adoptions based on holding good gospel principals are we not limiting a great many couples from adoption? Or are we only limiting gay couples because of a deeper bias and letting the other evils through because it's not really the kids we are looking out for?

[carlimac]

My point is simply this. I'm talking about a pretty narrow and unlikely situation- homosexuals trying to raise LDS kids. If we believe the Gospel, we believe homosexuals living together, married or not (assuming they are having sexual relations) is wrong. How can homosexuals teach that principle , yet live in opposition to it? Not a great way to teach that principle. Sure, they can raise good kids with high morals. But our Gospel goes beyond just morals. It's very specific in what we are taught God expects of us. Homosexual relations is not in His eternal plan, as far as I've heard anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Elgama]

My point is simply this. I'm talking about a pretty narrow and unlikely situation- homosexuals trying to raise LDS kids. If we believe the Gospel, we believe homosexuals living together, married or not (assuming they are having sexual relations) is wrong. How can homosexuals teach that principle , yet live in opposition to it? Not a great way to teach that principle. Sure, they can raise good kids with high morals. But our Gospel goes beyond just morals. It's very specific in what we are taught God expects of us. Homosexual relations is not in His eternal plan, as far as I've heard anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Its very simple. My six year old understands the concept, we do things the way we do because we are LDS, people who don't go to a church or go to a different one, do things differently. Its no different to me handing them to a non member relative.

I would never hand my boys to someone without an open attitude. What if they were gay? I'd much rather they had someone to help and guide them through their teens, than to go what so many go through.

I wouldn't like to be the gay child of someone I couldn't be sure would love me no matter who I was. . My bestfriend would love my kids as LDS, gay or whatever I am not convinced why would I pick someone that may reject my child over someone who would love them no matter what.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Elgama

[Soulsearcher]

My point is simply this. I'm talking about a pretty narrow and unlikely situation- homosexuals trying to raise LDS kids. If we believe the Gospel, we believe homosexuals living together, married or not (assuming they are having sexual relations) is wrong. How can homosexuals teach that principle , yet live in opposition to it? Not a great way to teach that principle. Sure, they can raise good kids with high morals. But our Gospel goes beyond just morals. It's very specific in what we are taught God expects of us. Homosexual relations is not in His eternal plan, as far as I've heard anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As said, as a gay male i had a hand in raising 5 lds kids, they are why i came to this site, to learn enough to help them with in the scope of their faith, but also teaching them enough about the world to let them make their choices. All of the kids have said more than once that they got more from me than their parents and are glad for it because it helps them cope with the world as it is. LOL their mother still blames them on me every time i go and visit now that they have moved.

Now as for what they learned from their LDS parents, good temple recommend, rm type people. Mom was too busy working, she loved them and tried her best, she really did, but i spent more time with them. She did work hard to install values and morals and over all she did a great job, though she tended to let her husband rule everything while they were married. As for their wonderful father, an RM who never always had his temple recommend, he was a computer game and porn addict who would give inappropriate attention to 14yr old girls and be very inappropriate with all women. He made his wife work cause he couldn't hold a job and had me take care of his kids because they were too much for him. When either parent couldn't take them to church i either taught the sunday school lesson or took them to church myself. I mixed my religious views with the lessons i taught and opened the kids minds to the fact there is more than the lds church and that the view they had of being superior was not in keeping with the lessons they were being taught. Since the divorce mom has gotten better though i'm still against forcing a teen into going to church and being part of activities, just seems to go against the idea of making the choice to follow christ. The father won't pay child support, bullies the kids and mother, just married an 18 year old (he's 45) whom he was living with, and yes he's still a member of the church and not only got the stake presidents blessing for the marriage but got praised for his actions.

So yes gay people can raise LDS kids some times even better than LDS parents. LDS is a title, it doesn't mean they are anything special, in their hearts and real actions that prove they are followers of christ, and being all christian religions seem to pick and choose some things to follow here and there, I'm not sure The fact a person is gay and living a life one partner they have devoted their lives to, rules them out to be able to teach gospel principals. Everyone is a sinner so if we say people of one sin can't teach the gospel, then no one can.

[carlimac]

As said, as a gay male i had a hand in raising 5 lds kids, they are why i came to this site, to learn enough to help them with in the scope of their faith, but also teaching them enough about the world to let them make their choices. All of the kids have said more than once that they got more from me than their parents and are glad for it because it helps them cope with the world as it is. LOL their mother still blames them on me every time i go and visit now that they have moved.

Now as for what they learned from their LDS parents, good temple recommend, rm type people. Mom was too busy working, she loved them and tried her best, she really did, but i spent more time with them. She did work hard to install values and morals and over all she did a great job, though she tended to let her husband rule everything while they were married. As for their wonderful father, an RM who never always had his temple recommend, he was a computer game and porn addict who would give inappropriate attention to 14yr old girls and be very inappropriate with all women. He made his wife work cause he couldn't hold a job and had me take care of his kids because they were too much for him. When either parent couldn't take them to church i either taught the sunday school lesson or took them to church myself. I mixed my religious views with the lessons i taught and opened the kids minds to the fact there is more than the lds church and that the view they had of being superior was not in keeping with the lessons they were being taught. Since the divorce mom has gotten better though i'm still against forcing a teen into going to church and being part of activities, just seems to go against the idea of making the choice to follow christ. The father won't pay child support, bullies the kids and mother, just married an 18 year old (he's 45) whom he was living with, and yes he's still a member of the church and not only got the stake presidents blessing for the marriage but got praised for his actions.

So yes gay people can raise LDS kids some times even better than LDS parents. LDS is a title, it doesn't mean they are anything special, in their hearts and real actions that prove they are followers of christ, and being all christian religions seem to pick and choose some things to follow here and there, I'm not sure The fact a person is gay and living a life one partner they have devoted their lives to, rules them out to be able to teach gospel principals. Everyone is a sinner so if we say people of one sin can't teach the gospel, then no one can.

Sounds like a pretty unique situation to me. There are good people and bad of all religions. I hope you're not judging the whole LDS church and it's doctrines by this one troubled family. Sounds like they aren't living up to what they know is right.

[Soulsearcher]

Sounds like a pretty unique situation to me. There are good people and bad of all religions. I hope you're not judging the whole LDS church and it's doctrines by this one troubled family. Sounds like they aren't living up to what they know is right.

Aren't the only LDS family i know that's got troubles. I'm just saying with a still high divorce rate in the church, porn addiction at an all time high among members, WoW issues and other worthiness issues, there's enough to show not even all LDS can teach gospel principals with out being some what hypocritical. It's possible for anyone to teach the principals being no one lives them 100%. Other side of this coin is is it really possible for LDS families to raise gay kids with out doing damage to the child? You might say of course, but what does the child say when grown. Judging with out knowing for sure does nothing. Again i ask are we protecting kids or are we just going by a bias that has no proof behind it?

[carlimac]

Its very simple. My six year old understands the concept, we do things the way we do because we are LDS, people who don't go to a church or go to a different one, do things differently. Its no different to me handing them to a non member relative.

I would never hand my boys to someone without an open attitude. What if they were gay? I'd much rather they had someone to help and guide them through their teens, than to go what so many go through.

I wouldn't like to be the gay child of someone I couldn't be sure would love me no matter who I was. . My bestfriend would love my kids as LDS, gay or whatever I am not convinced why would I pick someone that may reject my child over someone who would love them no matter what.

LDS people CAN love a child no matter who they are. Your attitude feeds the "Mormons hate gays" myth. That isn't true. I ( and many Mormons) hate the sin. I can't condone it or support it. I can't support or condone drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, taking illicit drugs, child abuse, spousal abuse, adultery and a host of other things I consider wrong- even if the person involved thinks it makes them happy. But I can still love the person (although it would be a real test of my faith to try to love a person involved in child and spousal abuse.) Jesus loved the sinner but condemned the sin. We are striving to be like Jesus.

There is a higher law here. It's a Celestial law. It doesn't give us any right to feel or act superior to any other of God's children on this earth. But if we want to inherit the Celestial kingdom, we need to be trying to live and help our children understand and live that law, too.

That's all I have time for today.

[Soulsearcher]

LDS people CAN love a child no matter who they are. Your attitude feeds the "Mormons hate gays" myth. That isn't true. I ( and many Mormons) hate the sin. I can't condone it or support it. I can't support or condone drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, taking illicit drugs, child abuse, spousal abuse, adultery and a host of other things I consider wrong- even if the person involved thinks it makes them happy. But I can still love the person (although it would be a real test of my faith to try to love a person involved in child and spousal abuse.) Jesus loved the sinner but condemned the sin. We are striving to be like Jesus.

There is a higher law here. It's a Celestial law. It doesn't give us any right to feel or act superior to any other of God's children on this earth. But if we want to inherit the Celestial kingdom, we need to be trying to live and help our children understand and live that law, too.

That's all I have time for today.

Except you have to look at the history Carli. Ask gay teens from lds families. Ask the ones that got tossed out of their homes while still in early teens, or forced to go into therapy to change them, or put up with judgments and persecution from their families. so saying this is love is very confusing to an already confused child. I don't consider a parent throwing out a child who is already in a hard place and feeling lost and alone as a loving gesture, nor the fact telling a child they can change with out actually understanding. What some see as love can many times be very different, as in cases of abusive spouses who swear they love their victims. It's not a matter of Mormons hate gays,it's a matter of LDS people thinking they understand a complex issue better than the people living it and understanding the motive and thoughts of these people. You think we can't teach or live the gospel. You think because we engage in a "sin" that we'll never be able to raise our kids to a point of spiritual readiness. There are a great many lds parents who for some reasons right now are not able to be ready for the celestial kingdom, and may never be, so because of this they can never raise their kids good enough spiritually?

[spamlds]

It's not a matter of Mormons hate gays,it's a matter of LDS people thinking they understand a complex issue better than the people living it and understanding the motive and thoughts of these people. You think we can't teach or live the gospel. You think because we engage in a "sin" that we'll never be able to raise our kids to a point of spiritual readiness. There are a great many lds parents who for some reasons right now are not able to be ready for the celestial kingdom, and may never be, so because of this they can never raise their kids good enough spiritually?

Excuse me, but the issue is not complex. The revelations teach us the divinely-ordered state of matrimony. It is linked to eternal progression and exaltation.

We know that God loves his children, but that some of us simply won't make it into the Celestial Kingdom and even some who make it into the Celestial Kingdom won't be exalted. It all has to do with our choices.

Nobody is born "gay" any more than anyone is born "addicted to pornography." It isn't a sex and it isn't a race. It's an obsession, like alcoholism, or gambling. A person may feel the tendency or the temptation, but it is his or her choices to act on them that is what determines the outcome.

It is always a tragedy when someone chooses his obsessions over his loyalty to our Creator. It is a surrender to a deception. It is an admission of failure. The thrashing about of those who defend homosexuality and gay marriage is a spiritual "temper tantrum." It doesn't make their choices any more moral or acceptable to God.

A parent still loves his two-year old when he throws a tantrum, but the tantrum is not an effective way to get what the child wants when the parent knows better.

Same-sex attraction yields to repentance and the atonement of Christ when the individual suffering from it chooses to accept those terms. It is possible for them to obtain peace and forgiveness on the Lord's terms.

[Soulsearcher]

Excuse me, but the issue is not complex. The revelations teach us the divinely-ordered state of matrimony. It is linked to eternal progression and exaltation.

We know that God loves his children, but that some of us simply won't make it into the Celestial Kingdom and even some who make it into the Celestial Kingdom won't be exalted. It all has to do with our choices.

Nobody is born "gay" any more than anyone is born "addicted to pornography." It isn't a sex and it isn't a race. It's an obsession, like alcoholism, or gambling. A person may feel the tendency or the temptation, but it is his or her choices to act on them that is what determines the outcome.

It is always a tragedy when someone chooses his obsessions over his loyalty to our Creator. It is a surrender to a deception. It is an admission of failure. The thrashing about of those who defend homosexuality and gay marriage is a spiritual "temper tantrum." It doesn't make their choices any more moral or acceptable to God.

A parent still loves his two-year old when he throws a tantrum, but the tantrum is not an effective way to get what the child wants when the parent knows better.

Same-sex attraction yields to repentance and the atonement of Christ when the individual suffering from it chooses to accept those terms. It is possible for them to obtain peace and forgiveness on the Lord's terms.

Please give me the exact science behind your knowledge that no one is born this way? Everyone is still out on this so you have no facts to support your knowledge. What you believe doesn't make it right and the fact you aren't one of these people can't really make you an expert on it now can it? You are the prime example of why people see that LDS would rather gloss over the issue than try to understand it. Just because you believe something about something you'll never experience doesn't make it true.

[carlimac]

Please give me the exact science behind your knowledge that no one is born this way? Everyone is still out on this so you have no facts to support your knowledge. What you believe doesn't make it right and the fact you aren't one of these people can't really make you an expert on it now can it? You are the prime example of why people see that LDS would rather gloss over the issue than try to understand it. Just because you believe something about something you'll never experience doesn't make it true.

There is such a wide disparity of belief on this issue. I don't think it's black and white in every case. Some person's hormones may be as opposite and messed up as possible, but in other cases it may just be nothing more than an inkling that the same gender is attractive. Every person who claims to be gay probably sits on a different spot within the spectrum. But in ANY case, I prefer to put my trust in our church leaders on this. Not that ssa doesn't exist but that everyone who is troubled by it CAN overcome it through our Savior. Our leaders know more than we do and they know more than we think they know.

There is nothing scientific about faith. No proof. In my life, it's just a simple belief that God has put leaders on this earth to direct and guide us on these prickly and nebulous issues. If we continue in denial and justifying our weaknesses (many become expert at this, forever turning the problem around and blaming everyone else but themselves), we'll never get the heavenly help to overcome them.

[Gwen]

I hope you're not judging the whole LDS church and it's doctrines by this one troubled family.

i hope you are not judging an entire group of ppl based on what you hear about a few.

[carlimac]

i hope you are not judging an entire group of ppl based on what you hear about a few.

Is this directed to me? What group of people are you talking about? If it's gays, I only know a few personally. They are some of the nicest people. But I've watched the news and read and researched. I've seen what has gone on in the protests and kiss-ins and all that garbage. I am smart enough to know that this doesn't represent the whole gay community.

On a side note- you really don't often hear about large violent groups of LDS people desecrating sacred gay property. You do hear about large groups of LDS people standing up for the definition of marriage. I haven't been in CA when any of this has gone on- haven't seen it in person. But I'd bet anyone would be hard pressed to find angry, destructive mobs of LDS retaliating against gays.

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

[Elgama]

Is this directed to me? What group of people are you talking about? If it's gays, I only know a few personally. They are some of the nicest people. But I've watched the news and read and researched. I've seen what has gone on in the protests and kiss-ins and all that garbage. I am smart enough to know that this doesn't represent the whole gay community.

On a side note- you really don't often hear about large violent groups of LDS people desecrating sacred gay property. You do hear about large groups of LDS people standing up for the definition of marriage. I haven't been in CA when any of this has gone on- haven't seen it in person. But I'd bet anyone would be hard pressed to find angry, destructive mobs of LDS retaliating against gays.

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

No but we had shameful incidents early on in the church when we were at the same stage the G/L community is at right now, basically seeking acceptance. During Prop 8 fact is some LDS behaved badly as well, and they created the situation, instead of simply saying we believe this because..... some vocal minority made it bad for the rest of us by engaging in verbal attacks I am not sure that is any better. Just like people on this thread accusing all gay people of high risk behaviour because they have seen a few on TV its no different to the things that caused the attacks.

Fact is a lot of LDS hold views in the manner you hold them. And I wouldn't trust my children to them. The ideal is an LDS couple who were sealed in the Temple and parent the way the Prophets and their wives have, that is what the proclammation is demanding for each child. But they are rare, as a result I think a g/l couple is as good as any of the rest of us.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Elgama

[Soulsearcher]

On a side note- you really don't often hear about large violent groups of LDS people desecrating sacred gay property. You do hear about large groups of LDS people standing up for the definition of marriage. I haven't been in CA when any of this has gone on- haven't seen it in person. But I'd bet anyone would be hard pressed to find angry, destructive mobs of LDS retaliating against gays.

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

Mobs no, that being said there were reports of LDS people starting fights and throwing the first punches here and there. But if we really want to go by the knowing them by their fruits line of thought then Cali isn't the best place to paint the church in the best light. Using deception, using tithing settlements to figure out who to call for the highest donations, Misreporting 189,000 dollars of money spent on the campaign, and this isn't the money the just reported late from what i know. To win a fight they got down in the mud and slung it with the best of them and did a lot of shady things that a large number of members are not comfortable with, so if these are the fruits we'll know the church by, then not sure it puts them much above the people they are against.

Also while i won't deny the protests after the Cali vote had a large number of homosexuals involved it they also had a large number of straight supporters, figuring out exactly who was doing the violence remains to be seen. I'm willing to bet it was a good mix, and also remind that people on the scene report that not only were the pro pro 8 people inciting fights they were in just as many cases throwing the first punch, or in at least one case if i remember right decided to drive a truck through a group. No word how many of them were good LDS folk, but not sure how many would fess up if they were either.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Soulsearcher

[carlimac]

No but we had shameful incidents early on in the church when we were at the same stage the G/L community is at right now, basically seeking acceptance. During Prop 8 fact is some LDS behaved badly as well, and they created the situation, instead of simply saying we believe this because..... some vocal minority made it bad for the rest of us by engaging in verbal attacks I am not sure that is any better. Just like people on this thread accusing all gay people of high risk behaviour because they have seen a few on TV its no different to the things that caused the attacks.

Fact is a lot of LDS hold views in the manner you hold them. And I wouldn't trust my children to them. The ideal is an LDS couple who were sealed in the Temple and parent the way the Prophets and their wives have, that is what the proclammation is demanding for each child. But they are rare, as a result I think a g/l couple is as good as any of the rest of us.

I guess we all form opinions based on our personal experiences. And unfortunately, rumor and heresay and urban legend. The most unfortunate and painful is the personal experience. Were the members treating you shamefully acting as Christ would? If not, that doesn't make the church or the Gospel untrue. But it does require forgiveness and coming to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit.

I guess I'm confused when you say that you wouldn't trust your children with people who hold my views, but that the couple sealed in the temple and parenting the way the prophet would is the ideal. I WAS sealed in the temple and my views are taken directly from the Proclamation- that came from the prophet- that came from Heavenly Father. So basically you are saying you wouldn't trust your children with the Prophet? That seems like a problem.

I have always said in every post- I don't hate gays. I understand that some may have legitimate attractions to their same gender for whatever reason. But I hate what they do when they give in to their physical urgings. I'm extremely uncomfortable with it just like I would be if I knew my children or husband or myself were having sex outside of marriage with the opposite gender. It goes against God's plan. He hasn't changed His plan. I'm only trying to adhere to what I've been taught by the prophets. I'm imperfect to say the least. I'm not the most stellar scriptorian or the most productive homemaker. I get impatient with my children and husband at times. I probably don't even go to temple as often as I should. I'm at about 50% on my visiting teaching. I have weaknesses that need to be worked on. By I DO believe what the prophets and general authorities have said about gay relations. I believe they are wrong. BUT I would continue to love a person with those tendencies. It may be hard to relate to them on a personal basis, but I would always try to love them as a child of God. I DO know that Jesus and our Heavenly Father love them. That is the ideal. But I can't for one minute believe that he approves of gay marriage or what they do intimately. I don't believe the prophet does either.

[Suzie]

OK assuming those of us on this board who are debating this hold to the principles of the gospel as spelled out by the Proclamation to the World and the words of our prophet, how then would we justify letting our children possibly be raised by a gay or lesbian couple (as in- if I die I want a g/l couple to raise them) when children learn more from adult example than anything. Why would anyone want their children to have to face that huge obstacle in learning right from wrong if they are being raised by loving but blatantly sinful people? I RECOGNIZE that no one is perfect. I'm not. My kids probably get the wrong idea from me on a daily basis. But my imperfections don't have anything to do with the really big commandment type sins. And they don't fly directly in the face of the Proclamation.

As much as some gays commit sins (those who have sexual relations) you, me and everyone else also commit sins. Just because some of us do not engage in these sort of sins, doesn't mean we are better than them, far from the truth. God doesn't take any sin "lightly". Careful with that.

It just seems like those of us who have genuine testimonies of the the LDS gospel see this in a completely different way than those who don't believe the prophet or church doctrine on this matter.

Genuine testimony? I think is a little unfair to think that those who may disagree in this matter do not have a genuine testimony. IMO, we have to be careful that as we strive to to obey what the Lord has said and try to follow his example, we do not become kind of pharisaic in the process.

I have no doubt that there are many loving and kind gay and lesbian people who would make excellent parents. But the problem lies in the messages kids will pick up from them.

What about the message they pick from you, me or anyone else out there who isn't gay? In my life I have seen many, many kids suffering in the hands of those who were supposed to love them and take care of them. They went through rape, torture, malnutrition and abandonment. All in the hands of heterosexual couples.

No, based on what I have seen with my own eyes (and I have seen a lot) sexual orientation and good parenting are NOT mutually inclusive.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Suzie

[carlimac]

As much as some gays commit sins (those who have sexual relations) you, me and everyone else also commit sins. Just because some of us do not engage in these sort of sins, doesn't mean we are better than them, far from the truth. God doesn't take any sin "lightly". Careful with that.

Genuine testimony? I think is a little unfair to think that those who may disagree in this matter do not have a genuine testimony. IMO, we have to be careful that as we strive to to obey what the Lord has said and try to follow his example, we do not become kind of pharisaic in the process.

What about the message they pick from you, me or anyone else out there who isn't gay? In my life I have seen many, many kids suffering in the hands of those who were supposed to love them and take care of them. They went through rape, torture, malnutrition and abandonment. All in the hands of heterosexual couples.

No, based on what I have seen with my own eyes (and I have seen a lot) sexual orientation and good parenting are NOT mutually inclusive.

Thank you for the reminder that I'm not perfect. Don't think I really needed it. I'm well aware of many or my faults and weaknesses. I've stated them many times on this forum. "Genuine testimony" of God's plan which doesn't include same gender marriages. IF we think -"OK the Proclamation (from God) states that marriage is to be only between a man and a woman, but He makes an exception for homosexuals." Is that not faulty thinking? I don't think there is anything pharisaical about that. There are many principles of the Gospel I have struggled with from time to time. Even now. But I do have a genuine testimony of God's plan for families and marriage.

Yes there are countless heterosexual couples who have done horrible things to children. But back to the OP- hopefully they wouldn't make the cut for adopting kids anyway. Some have and that's tragic. But just as heteros don't have the corner on good parenting, I would bet there are a fair number of gays who abuse their kids, too. But that isn't what the OP was about. It was about ALL else being equal among the three couples- assuming they would be good loving parents and had passed the numerous tests and investigations required before adopting. And if you looked at my first answer- I said, first come first served. I didn't eliminate the gay couple. But that would only be if gay marriage becomes the legal. " We believe in honoring and sustaining the law." Doesn't mean I dont think the law is wrong. But it would be the only fair solution according to that law.

Funny how some people twist what I say into something I didn't mean.

Edited August 21, 2010 by carlimac

[Suzie]

Thank you for the reminder that I'm not perfect. Don't think I really needed it. I'm well aware of many or my faults and weaknesses. I've stated them many times on this forum

I didn't single you out, but I mentioned all of us so not sure what exactly you took offense of. Yes, we are not perfect and yes I think often times we need to be reminded of it IMO.

I don't think there is anything pharisaical about that.

The pharisaic comment was about the notion that just because we do not commit those sort of sins it seems to imply we are in somewhat a better position, otherwise I do not understand why the mention of it at all (particularly the "sinful people"). We are ALL sinners.

Actually, I agree with a lot of your points. I just do not agree that a sexual orientation will make one parenthood better/more efficient than another.

Funny how some people twist what I say into something I didn't mean.

You can mention my name instead of "some people". I'm sorry if you felt offended, but really there is nothing to feel offended about. Take Care. :)

[carlimac]

I didn't single you out, but I mentioned all of us so not sure what exactly you took offense of. Yes, we are not perfect and yes I think often times we need to be reminded of it IMO.

The pharisaic comment was about the notion that just because we do not commit those sort of sins it seems to imply we are in somewhat a better position, otherwise I do not understand why the mention of it at all (particularly the "sinful people"). We are ALL sinners.

Actually, I agree with a lot of your points. I just do not agree that a sexual orientation will make one parenthood better/more efficient than another.

You can mention my name instead of "some people". I'm sorry if you felt offended, but really there is nothing to feel offended about. Take Care. :)

I'm not offended. And you aren't the only one who takes a post and picks one thing out of it to harp on or turn it into something bigger than it is. Just the risks of internet commnunication. I'm sure I do it, too. You did quote me though, and then told me to be careful- which I will be. Thank you.

I don't agree that sexual orientation makes one parenthood better than another either when it comes to loving and nurturing. Never said that because I don't believe it. But I do believe that it's pretty hard to teach a principle of the Gospel (one of the biggies like celestial marriage) but live contrary to it, without continually telling your kids to do as I say but not as I do- which is what a homosexual couple would have to do. But it's probably a moot point since they most likely wouldn't believe it or teach it to their kids anyway. That just brings up Elgama's prickly ( prickly to me anyway) issue of preferring a gay friend she knows (don't know if that person currently has a partner) to raise her kids than any other couple. It seems pretty risky BECAUSE of the different beliefs. It just seems to me that if a person really believes in celestial marriage and hopes their kids will attain that, too, they'd prefer somone to raise their kids who believes the same and who is at least married to someone of the opposite sex. I REALIZE that there is much more to attaining celestial marriage than just marrying someone of the opposite gender. Believe me I know- marriage takes almost an hourly effort to keep things happy and moving upward rather than toward divorce courts. But it's pretty well understood that celestial marriage can't in any way be attained if you're married to someone of the same gender. That goes without saying. (In fact lots of things go without saying and it surprises me when someone points things out as if I don't get it.- For instance, some heteros make worse parents than gays- duh! Does that even need to be brought into the discussion? )

So Elgama, if you are reading this, can I ask you what you really believe about gay marriage and about the Proclamation? If you don't want to answer, I understand. I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm just trying to understand the contradiction I seem to be reading and get my mind around it.

I'm a pretty inquisitive person. To a fault! ( see- I do know I have faults)

In fact, what does everyone who is defending gay marriage really believe about celestial marriage? How do you reconcile it all in your mind?

Edited August 21, 2010 by carlimac

[Soulsearcher]

What do i think about celestial marriage? That's a good question. I think a lot people think it just means finding someone to get sealed to in the temple and that's pretty much the end of it. I"ve found that after the temple most people tend to forget what sealed means, if they ever really understood what it meant going into it. I know a woman who had been married for years to her husband, but she was in love with another man. This woman's husband started to push for them to get sealed in the temple and even though this woman was not being honest with her husband or fully faithful she got sealed, and proceeded to love this other man and then get into yet another emotional affair with another man after being sealed. Coming from a mixed Catholic and LDS family so far the Catholics have a better history of strong loving relationships where most of the LDS friends and family married in the temple have divorced at least once if not more or on the verge of it. I think the pressure behind getting married in the temple leads to more people doing it for the sake of doing it with out always being ready. Does this make "Celestial marriages" less important or special, no. Do i think they are needed? no. When i was raising the LDS kids i made my views clear, while i didn't believe it was needed, if it is what they believe they need to do to progress in life and spiritually then i'll be waiting outside the temple for them with a huge smile on my face. I remember a talk i had with the kid's mom and her sisters when the girls were almost at dating age. The mothers were so focused on the guys their daughters date be RM's and able to take their daughters to the temple, but not one of them mentioned that he be a good man, or a loving man. There's a lot of guys out on missions who aren't there for the right reasons, and a lot of people who lie to get into the temple, so while i understand the focus on these traits i think we need to look at the people before titles and pieces of paper, maybe then celestial marriages might be closer to what they were meant to be again. Just my personal views and opinions.

Also, while I'm not a big believer in Celestial marriage as anything hugely important, I'd never do anything to remove the choice from people who want to, even though it conflicts with what i believe. People should be able ot make choices themselves about what goes on with consenting adults. One of the huge arguments people had against gay marriage was we'd start forcing it on churches and how wrong it was, but churches had no problem forcing their views on us, why is it ok for one group to do it and not the other? If you really want us to stay away and respect your views then shouldn't there possibly be leading by example instead of doing exactly what you're asking us not to do?

Edited August 21, 2010 by Soulsearcher