Founded by the devil?

[curtishouse]

I'm just reading through the BofM for the first time and I came across 1Nephi 14:3. What church is the "abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children"?

[Dravin]

You may find this article from an old Ensign (a magazine put out by the Church) to be of interest: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Warring against the Saints of God

[pam]

Bruce R. McConkie

“The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature -- whether political, philosophical, educational, economic social, fraternal, civic, or religious -- which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God….”

[NeuroTypical]

Back in the fiesty good ol' days of Frontier America, you could find lots of Mormons who were convinced this referred to the Catholic church.

Those days are pretty much over now, and nowadays, just about all of the LDS folks believe the abominable church is a reference to worldly secularness, that worships stuff, and being glorified by other people, and power and whatnot. It's a symbol of apostacy - a representation of all false doctrine - anything that weakens faith, desires worldly sin or gain, and seeks worldly praise.

(Although you can still find the occasional Mormon who figures it's the Catholics.)

[curtishouse]

Back in the fiesty good ol' days of Frontier America, you could find lots of Mormons who were convinced this referred to the Catholic church.

Those days are pretty much over now, and nowadays, just about all of the LDS folks believe the abominable church is a reference to worldly secularness, that worships stuff, and being glorified by other people, and power and whatnot. It's a symbol of apostacy - a representation of all false doctrine - anything that weakens faith, desires worldly sin or gain, and seeks worldly praise.

(Although you can still find the occasional Mormon who figures it's the Catholics.)

I guess that fringe minority of the LDS church have something to agree upon with the fundamental Baptists and such...They swear up and down that the "whore" is the Catholic church as well.

So, from these posts, it feels there really isn't a consensus on what truly is the abominable church. I'll check out that link that somebody else posted as well. Is there an official church position on this?

[curtishouse]

Bruce R. McConkie

“The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature -- whether political, philosophical, educational, economic social, fraternal, civic, or religious -- which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God….”

It seems that Mr. McConkie is quoted quite a bit here on the boards. Isn't he vehemently against the LDS church now?

[Bini]

This is a good topic. I got some questions.

So if the Mormon Church is the one and only true gospel, all other denominations (whatever they may be) are teaching false doctrine. Correct? Would these be classified as abominable churches? I should really know this stuff but I've just been inactive for so long..

[HiJolly]

It seems that Mr. McConkie is quoted quite a bit here on the boards. Isn't he vehemently against the LDS church now?

That particular McConkie (Bruce) is a now-deceased Apostle of the Lord, FYI. Even so, I don't like quoting very much from his book "Mormon Doctrine", which is NOT doctrine at all.

I personally take a harder line in my interpretation of "the whore" and "the great & abominable" --- My view is that these labels belong only to those who actively fight against and attack the Lord's sheep "the Church of the Lamb of God" --- which does not limit its membership to the people in the LDS Church.

HiJolly

[pam]

This is a good topic. I got some questions.

So if the Mormon Church is the one and only true gospel, all other denominations (whatever they may be) are teaching false doctrine. Correct? Would these be classified as abominable churches? I should really know this stuff but I've just been inactive for so long..

Not at all. We believe there are many churches or denominations that teach truth. We just don't believe they have ALL the truth. So no I wouldn't classify them as abominable churches. Whether they have all the truth or not, they are still actively engaged in bringing people to Christ.

As my quote from Elder McConkie and HiJolly's explanation, would be anyone that fights against bringing people to Christ.

[Bini]

It seems that Mr. McConkie is quoted quite a bit here on the boards. Isn't he vehemently against the LDS church now?

I just did a google on him. All I found was a ton of McConkie bashing. Everything from him being a racist to telling people there's no possible way to gain a testimony without reading the BOM first. Yikes. But maybe someone here knows more and has links to reliable resources. I'm guessing what I found is inaccurate?

[HiJolly]

This is a good topic. I got some questions.

So if the Mormon Church is the one and only true gospel, all other denominations (whatever they may be) are teaching false doctrine. Correct? Would these be classified as abominable churches? I should really know this stuff but I've just been inactive for so long..

I don't think the Mormon Church *is* the "one and only true gospel". I taught a lesson on this last year in Gospel Doctrine, and fortunately I was able to make my case in 45 minutes (or is it 50) such that everyone was happy with me in the end.

Here, I don't have the time to make the whole presentation, but I will say that there are additional words to consider:

30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

I think that all who trust in Christ are the Church of the Lamb of God. I think we LDS are a subset of that group, and are the only Church which God has granted His Holy Priesthood, and thus the only institution of men in the world that has the right to perform saving & exalting ordinances that are recognized as binding in the heavens (and in the hereafter, of course).

We also have the most un-corrupted and useful Gospel on the earth, but we most certainly do not have all the truth, nor do other church have zero truth. Well, there might be a few....

HiJolly

[curtishouse]

I just did a google on him. All I found was a ton of McConkie bashing. Everything from him being a racist to telling people there's no possible way to gain a testimony without reading the BOM first. Yikes. But maybe someone here knows more and has links to reliable resources. I'm guessing what I found is inaccurate?

I have debated over at CARM before and it seemed that many members of the LDS church spoke ill of him and that he wasn't teaching church doctrine. I also recall some saying that he left the church for various reasons. Take that all with a grain of salt though. I am definitely not qualified to speak on his life. I could very well just be mistaken.

[HiJolly]

I just did a google on him. All I found was a ton of McConkie bashing. Everything from him being a racist to telling people there's no possible way to gain a testimony without reading the BOM first. Yikes. But maybe someone here knows more and has links to reliable resources. I'm guessing what I found is inaccurate?

Elder McConkie had a habit of being a tad overbearing, and so some people got a bit offended at his words. And he had a bad habit of stating things so forcefully that even if he was wrong, people would say, "ok". I don't think he ever *tried* to come across that way.

I shook his hand and found him to be a giant of a man. I'm 6'2'' and over 200 lbs, but his hand was so huge I felt like a child by comparison. He was a good man who gave everything he had to and for the Church.

Here's his last testimony: LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Purifying Power of Gethsemane

HiJolly

[pam]

I have debated over at CARM before and it seemed that many members of the LDS church spoke ill of him and that he wasn't teaching church doctrine. I also recall some saying that he left the church for various reasons. Take that all with a grain of salt though. I am definitely not qualified to speak on his life. I could very well just be mistaken.

He never left the Church.

[HiJolly]

I have debated over at CARM before and it seemed that many members of the LDS church spoke ill of him and that he wasn't teaching church doctrine. I also recall some saying that he left the church for various reasons. Take that all with a grain of salt though. I am definitely not qualified to speak on his life. I could very well just be mistaken.

He died a faithful Apostle of the Lord. A good man. But yeah, he was wrong sometimes -- and he was a big enough man to admit it.

HiJolly

[pam]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Elder Bruce R. McConkie: “Preacher of Righteousness”

[curtishouse]

He died a faithful Apostle of the Lord. A good man. But yeah, he was wrong sometimes -- and he was a big enough man to admit it.

HiJolly

That could have been why some Mormons had some bad things to say about him. When you come out with a book called "Mormon Doctrines", it better be spot on. :) Glad to hear that I was wrong and he stayed as a faithful member of the church for the duration of his life.

[HiJolly]

That could have been why some Mormons had some bad things to say about him. When you come out with a book called "Mormon Doctrines", it better be spot on. :) Glad to hear that I was wrong and he stayed as a faithful member of the church for the duration of his life.

Yeah. When his first edition came out, the First Presidency tasked two Apostles to review it, and they found about 1,000 things that needed correcting or re-wording. Ouch.

Still, he stuck with it. I have a first-edition in my library, and it's such a huge piece of Mormon history I'm not about to let it go. But I don't believe a lot of it, for example, it doesn't bother me to play with face cards!

HiJolly

[curtishouse]

Yeah. When his first edition came out, the First Presidency tasked two Apostles to review it, and they found about 1,000 things that needed correcting or re-wording. Ouch.

Still, he stuck with it. I have a first-edition in my library, and it's such a huge piece of Mormon history I'm not about to let it go. But I don't believe a lot of it, for example, it doesn't bother me to play with face cards!

HiJolly

Face cards? LOL Is there a corrected version of the book? I would want to read the original but, as I'm just learning about the faith now, I don't want to get a bunch of errors stuck in my head!

[HiJolly]

Face cards? LOL Is there a corrected version of the book? I would want to read the original but, as I'm just learning about the faith now, I don't want to get a bunch of errors stuck in my head!

hmmm...

See, we're not a "people of the book" kinda thing. We don't really have a systematic doctrinal / philosophical Creed. Closest thing would be the Articles of Faith:

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. 2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

We are a group where people can have their own opinions (though I do have to know when to keep my mouth shut at times, to be socially acceptable). We can pretty much believe what we believe, as long as we don't speak out with false doctrine. I like that.

HiJolly

[Bini]

Thanks for the posts. That's pretty much what I have heard about him too. But wow, I had no idea he was so big! That's interesting.. 6'2 and yet, you felt dwarfed..

[bytor2112]

Thanks for the posts. That's pretty much what I have heard about him too. But wow, I had no idea he was so big! That's interesting.. 6'2 and yet, you felt dwarfed..

He was a great man and is my favorite general authority. His son wrote a very good book about his life....the Bruce McConkie Story....well worth the read. Elder McConkie was on a mission to drive secularism from the church and was often called on by the First Presidency to address doctrinal matters. A favorite quote from the book was when he called his son to tell him that he was on his way to speak at BYU, "tell them to warm up the tar, I'm coming to speak."

He wrote some very good books about the Savior..the Messiah Series and much of his works/commentary is found in teaching manuals and I am fairly certain that he authored the chapter headings in the modern renderings of the standard works.

Don't believe the venom spewed by mormons or otherwise....it is usually half truths or those who think they are more inspired than an Apostle of Jesus Christ. I would trust his views of doctrinal matters way before I would anyone on this site and feel very safe in doing so.

Edited September 29, 2010 by bytor2112

[Wingnut]

Yeah. When his first edition came out, the First Presidency tasked two Apostles to review it, and they found about 1,000 things that needed correcting or re-wording. Ouch.

Including, I believe, a statement positing that the Catholic Church was the "great and abominable church" spoken of in the Book of Mormon. That was scrubbed for the second edition.

There's a fine line when it comes to Elder McConkie. He was one of the most authoritative doctrinal experts to ever walk this earth, yet, as has been said, he was at times overzealous. Take with a grain of salt anything you read of his that is not an official Church publication (and that includes Mormon Doctrine). Anything said in a church setting, though, I would hardly doubt.

[Moksha]

It seems that Mr. McConkie is quoted quite a bit here on the boards. Isn't he vehemently against the LDS church now?

Elder McConkie is describing no Church that can be found in the telephone book.

[bytor2112]

Including, I believe, a statement positing that the Catholic Church was the "great and abominable church" spoken of in the Book of Mormon. That was scrubbed for the second edition.

There's a fine line when it comes to Elder McConkie. He was one of the most authoritative doctrinal experts to ever walk this earth, yet, as has been said, he was at times overzealous. Take with a grain of salt anything you read of his that is not an official Church publication (and that includes Mormon Doctrine). Anything said in a church setting, though, I would hardly doubt.

Mormon Doctrine....second edition...the changes that were made were not related to doctrinal matters, but rather a softening of the tone and some things like face card playing and references to the Catholic Church were omitted.......and Elder Kimball reported that he reviewed and approved 56 changes..... not over 1000. However, it is worth noting that those changes were made at the request of the First Presidency and with the assistance of Spencer Kimball. So, is it an accurate resource....yes. Taken with a grain of salt? Hmmm......I believe that much of the chapter summaries are taken from Doctrinal New Testament Commentary and quotes from books like the Millenial Messiah and the Promised Messiah are used in teaching manuals. So, maybe we should take the teaching manuals with a grain of salt as well?

Edited September 29, 2010 by bytor2112