I need opinions/advice

[ConquestT4]

So.....you'll pour out your soul and publish for thousands of people that you like to jack off after work, and you'll struggle like crazy and feel awful about it and make excuses and justifications.......but you won't go talk to one trusted person who won't ever tell your story, won't ever shame you or embarrass you and who might actually help you beat it in a few short weeks? Interesting.

Did you plan on doing what your doing now? Might wanna look closer at your rationalizations.

Ah yes! White knuckling. Except, isn't the reason you posted in the first place because this strategy wasn't working? And you wonder why you can't just relax and enjoy life......

What??????????

Jack off after work???? Where did you get that from?? Make excuses and justifications? I'm trying my best not to justify anything and not lie to myself. Excuses? I've expressed frustration but what makes you think I am trying to EXCUSE ANY of my behavior??

Who is going to shame me here? Go ahead! Tell my story! I hope it helps someone else. No one will probably ever know who I am. Heck, no one even knows my name.

I have talked to 4 trusted people who won't ever tell my story. 2 mission presidents and 2 bishops! What are you talking about?

Did I plan on doing what I am doing right now? What are you referring to? Posting my story here? Repeatedly falling into the same cycles????

I don't understand at all.

[Wingnut]

Defensive much?

[beefche]

Ok. Point taken. I understand and I agree but I'm not about to be engaged. We have been dating for hardly 2 months. We are extremely close and marriage is definitely in the back of my mind but its too soon for me to make any decisions. We have talked about it a bit. Well really we just made sure that we weren't doing anything that was tempting one another and we made it clear where we both stand on the matter. I mean that we both have made the firm decision to wait till marriage. We clarified that with each other and it wasn't awkward at all. I think we are both pretty mature about it.

I didn't mean to imply that your 2nd date with a girl should be a sex talk. Certainly you should wait until you both feel comfortable and feel that it is an appropriate time in the relationship.

But, I honestly don't see anything wrong with having detailed discussions on sex--our expectations, our thoughts, our understanding, etc. It's part of the assessment when considering a companion. If you expect that "anything goes" in the bedroom and your girlfriend thinks it's only to be done to procreate, then that should be known prior to marriage. Because it will come out in marriage and can be a huge stumbling block.

And I am one who believes that the Spirit can and ought to be there while discussing this. Because of our nature, this kind of talk can get out of hand easily. Thus, it's important that while being detailed enough, you are wary to be careful to not be too detailed to drive away the Spirit. Tough to judge sometimes, but the Spirit will guide each of you.

[Misshalfway]

What??????????

Jack off after work???? Where did you get that from?? Make excuses and justifications? I'm trying my best not to justify anything and not lie to myself. Excuses? I've expressed frustration but what makes you think I am trying to EXCUSE ANY of my behavior??

Who is going to shame me here? Go ahead! Tell my story! I hope it helps someone else. No one will probably ever know who I am. Heck, no one even knows my name.

I have talked to 4 trusted people who won't ever tell my story. 2 mission presidents and 2 bishops! What are you talking about?

Did I plan on doing what I am doing right now? What are you referring to? Posting my story here? Repeatedly falling into the same cycles????

I don't understand at all.

Honey, I'm calling you on your thinking errors and you don't like it.

[ConquestT4]

I didn't mean to imply that your 2nd date with a girl should be a sex talk. Certainly you should wait until you both feel comfortable and feel that it is an appropriate time in the relationship.

But, I honestly don't see anything wrong with having detailed discussions on sex--our expectations, our thoughts, our understanding, etc. It's part of the assessment when considering a companion. If you expect that "anything goes" in the bedroom and your girlfriend thinks it's only to be done to procreate, then that should be known prior to marriage. Because it will come out in marriage and can be a huge stumbling block.

And I am one who believes that the Spirit can and ought to be there while discussing this. Because of our nature, this kind of talk can get out of hand easily. Thus, it's important that while being detailed enough, you are wary to be careful to not be too detailed to drive away the Spirit. Tough to judge sometimes, but the Spirit will guide each of you.

I understand. This all makes sense.

But what???? Really!!! Are there people who think that it is ONLY to procreate? So if you want 3 kids you may only get to do it 3 times in your life???

[beefche]

You would be really, really surprised at some thoughts on sex--even in our own LDS community.

[ConquestT4]

Defensive much?

Me?? I......don't think so.... I just don't want to be communicating the wrong things or wrong idea....

Is misshalfway a therapist or something? No offense to therapists. I'm sure they can do a lot of good for many. I have a friend who sees one for another matter.

I just find that her last post when compared with the previous has a very very different tone.

I just want to make sure we are on the same page.

Ok, after rereading my post it does sound like I am trying to be defensive but I just wanted to address each thing from misshalfway's post that I was confused about. No offense intended whatsoever.

[Misshalfway]

What??????????

Jack off after work???? Where did you get that from?? Make excuses and justifications? I'm trying my best not to justify anything and not lie to myself. Excuses? I've expressed frustration but what makes you think I am trying to EXCUSE ANY of my behavior??

Who is going to shame me here? Go ahead! Tell my story! I hope it helps someone else. No one will probably ever know who I am. Heck, no one even knows my name.

I have talked to 4 trusted people who won't ever tell my story. 2 mission presidents and 2 bishops! What are you talking about?

Did I plan on doing what I am doing right now? What are you referring to? Posting my story here? Repeatedly falling into the same cycles????

I don't understand at all.

I am pointing out your thinking errors and you don't like it. I''m not trying to be mean, I promise.

_____________________________

When people get into compulsive trouble sometimes they fail to see the full extent of the problem....the problem that keeps them trapped. They may assume that the consequences are only religious ones or moral ones. Like with you, the masturbation problem is interfering with your ability to obey the law of chastity. Often bishops approach the problem from this angle. Problem is, many men battle and repent over and over but can't lick it. Why is that?

But Satan is craftier than just putting your salvation in jeopardy. He starts messing with your thinking....your emotions....your spiritual views. He gets men like you to start thinking in terms of denial, justifications, rationalizations, etc. The denial and justifications start acting like weeds in a garden. Left unchecked, they will take over the whole garden.

Twopoints, you ARE a good man. Your worth is not in question here. Your efforts are not in question here. I am trying to invite you to look at your thinking. To start becoming aware of how Satan may be getting into your headspace. Honesty, and I know you don't like it, but you do post with evidence that this is happening to you. You justify and make excuses. The fact that you don't like it....that fact that you don't see what I am seeing....MIGHT be a clue.

What I am really trying to say is that going to a therapist is a good thing. It will help. And its a heckuva lot better than posting on a message board. And it won't make you a bad guy or "one of those pervert kinds" if you go. It makes you a man of courage who is humble enough to admit he needs help. And it means you love yourself, your future wife, and your God that you are willing to do what it takes to stop the problem before you get yourself in real trouble.

Or you can go on believing that you can do it alone and fooling yourself by saying "I'm posting as a public service." You aren't the first who made that mistake.

At that point, my best advise will be "Good Luck."

[Gwen]

satan also sometimes tries to convince us things are bigger than they are so he can weigh us down with guilt and excuses of why we can't. that's why no one here can say if he's an addict but him (and maybe a counselor). sometimes when we hear another's story we cloud it with our experiences and fill in the blanks of what we don't know with our perception.

i think the op needs to spend some time in honest prayer and then decide and go from there. none of us have that answer for him, no matter what we think we see.

[Misshalfway]

He asked for opinions and advise. If anything any of us offers is incorrect, or untrue, he can take it or leave it.

I absolutely agree with what you are saying gwen with regards to Satan and making things appear worse. Especially with this case.

As for the assumptions of what i think i see, point well taken.

[MarginOfError]

What??????????

Jack off after work???? Where did you get that from?? Make excuses and justifications? I'm trying my best not to justify anything and not lie to myself. Excuses? I've expressed frustration but what makes you think I am trying to EXCUSE ANY of my behavior??

Who is going to shame me here? Go ahead! Tell my story! I hope it helps someone else. No one will probably ever know who I am. Heck, no one even knows my name.

I have talked to 4 trusted people who won't ever tell my story. 2 mission presidents and 2 bishops! What are you talking about?

Did I plan on doing what I am doing right now? What are you referring to? Posting my story here? Repeatedly falling into the same cycles????

I don't understand at all.

I'd strongly advise you listen to the things Halfers has to say. So far, your portrayal of your situation has done very well at displaying how conflicted you are about your actions, but it also demonstrates some fundamental flaws in your understanding of the law of chastity and in your ability to control your actions.

To start, in your first post, you mentioned that you never had a problem obeying the law of chastity, but that you had a bad habit of dwelling on inappropriate thoughts. The law of chastity covers our thoughts, and not just our actions. If you had a bad habit of dwelling on inappropriate thoughts, then you had a problem with obeying the law of chastity. (For a good reference on such things, see "The Power of Righteousness" by Elder Richard G Scott).

Next, you've indicated an initial hesitancy to admit your errors to your bishop, even though you felt you needed to. The phrase that comes to mind immediately here is "cover their sins." I'm glad you eventually humbled yourself. That's good progress. But you still have a little further to go.

You've stated that you can't afford the money for a therapist or counselor. Talk to your bishop and see he feels your situation is worthy of aid. Because you apparently need help. You're still struggling, battling, and fighting your temptations, and you clearly feel the need to talk about it to someone. Also, the addiction recovery groups would be a huge benefit, and you ought to humble yourself a little more and take advantage of that program. The very premise of that program is that you can't do it alone. Yet you seem to insist that you must do it yourself.

Lastly, I might point out your reaction to your bishop not authorizing you to take the sacrament as soon as your previous bishop. You say it's strange, but it really isn't. What else are they supposed to do for a recurrent problem? If they slap your hand and tell you to wait a week between episodes before taking the Sacrament, they're doing you no service. They should be waiting to see lasting and consistent change.

Now, going forward, you may want to recognize that it's very obvious from how you've described yourself that you are young. If you hadn't stated your age and that you had served a mission, I likely would have pegged your for 18 or 19 years old. You've got a lot of the idiosyncrasies of late adolescence and still have a great deal of maturation to do. It would do you well not to get so defensive when someone points out your inconsistencies. Instead, you should evaluate them, decide what to do about them, and work to improve yourself.

[ConquestT4]

I am pointing out your thinking errors and you don't like it. I''m not trying to be mean, I promise.

_____________________________

When people get into compulsive trouble sometimes they fail to see the full extent of the problem....the problem that keeps them trapped. They may assume that the consequences are only religious ones or moral ones. Like with you, the masturbation problem is interfering with your ability to obey the law of chastity. Often bishops approach the problem from this angle. Problem is, many men battle and repent over and over but can't lick it. Why is that?

But Satan is craftier than just putting your salvation in jeopardy. He starts messing with your thinking....your emotions....your spiritual views. He gets men like you to start thinking in terms of denial, justifications, rationalizations, etc. The denial and justifications start acting like weeds in a garden. Left unchecked, they will take over the whole garden.

Twopoints, you ARE a good man. Your worth is not in question here. Your efforts are not in question here. I am trying to invite you to look at your thinking. To start becoming aware of how Satan may be getting into your headspace. Honesty, and I know you don't like it, but you do post with evidence that this is happening to you. You justify and make excuses. The fact that you don't like it....that fact that you don't see what I am seeing....MIGHT be a clue.

What I am really trying to say is that going to a therapist is a good thing. It will help. And its a heckuva lot better than posting on a message board. And it won't make you a bad guy or "one of those pervert kinds" if you go. It makes you a man of courage who is humble enough to admit he needs help. And it means you love yourself, your future wife, and your God that you are willing to do what it takes to stop the problem before you get yourself in real trouble.

Or you can go on believing that you can do it alone and fooling yourself by saying "I'm posting as a public service." You aren't the first who made that mistake.

At that point, my best advise will be "Good Luck."

Ok. I do appreciate all your points and views. I can't deny that I haven't been tempted to justify my actions but what makes you think that I am making excuses? Since day one when I first "accidentally masturbated" I tried to convince myself that since I didn't have the intentions of producing an ejaculation I wasn't guilty. Just I ended up feeling that I wasn't justified there. I accept the responsibility of my sins. I wouldn't post on here if I didn't have the really desire to repent.

I can see how easy it would be to just kind of repent and not fully repent. I think it takes REAL commitment to dedicate, say and beleive... I WILL NOT LET THIS HAPPEN EVER AGAIN FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE. Just in saying that Satan tried to make one doubt if one really can.

This post was not in any way made with the intent to be a public service. I posted because I had NO ONE to talk to about it and I needed to just get my thoughts out there. I assumed the risk of people judging me or making fun or being hard on me but I can say that I think that posting here has given me a good amount of time to reflect and see things again. Its served the purpose that I wanted it to and I don't feel completely alone. Since posting here I feel I have been doing better. I have been more calm. I have received good advice.... I think I feel better because one I was able to journalize the "history" of this battle and two I have benefited from the responses of most, if not all.

I would really appreciate it if you could point out the justifications and excuses I have made. Maybe I have. Maybe I didn't realize it. Maybe what I put is not a complete or accurate description of my reality.

I just don't feel like I am trying to justify or that I HAVE justified anything. I know I cannot justify sin and I know how the Lord sees sin. Maybe I have wanted to but I can't. That hurts me but I also know I have to accept it because thats the way it is. Justifying anything hinder my repentance progress. Who else could be guilty of my sins but me?? Certainly I am the only one directly involved here. I have been "alone" in every occurrence.

"He starts messing with your thinking....your emotions....your spiritual views."

I beleive this. The biggest thing I have seen is that addiction or almost every addiction if not all it seems, affects ones ability to see the beauties of life. It affects you socially, mentally, spiritually, physically, emotionally... I have experienced enough consequences to know that. You are right. So please understand. I like seeing things how they really are. I just feel like I am in the last steps of the repentance process. I know that doesn't guarantee I will never fall again but I am trying desperately to further myself from the sin and not see how close I can get to the edge. I don't think I am strong enough to hang out near the edge. But that edge has been my home for almost 3 years now. When I walk away I kinda feel like I don't know where I am going. But I really do want to get there and I can't live with this in my life anymore. I have too much else to worry about, get ready for, and live.

[ConquestT4]

I'd strongly advise you listen to the things Halfers has to say. So far, your portrayal of your situation has done very well at displaying how conflicted you are about your actions, but it also demonstrates some fundamental flaws in your understanding of the law of chastity and in your ability to control your actions.

To start, in your first post, you mentioned that you never had a problem obeying the law of chastity, but that you had a bad habit of dwelling on inappropriate thoughts. The law of chastity covers our thoughts, and not just our actions. If you had a bad habit of dwelling on inappropriate thoughts, then you had a problem with obeying the law of chastity. (For a good reference on such things, see "The Power of Righteousness" by Elder Richard G Scott).

Next, you've indicated an initial hesitancy to admit your errors to your bishop, even though you felt you needed to. The phrase that comes to mind immediately here is "cover their sins." I'm glad you eventually humbled yourself. That's good progress. But you still have a little further to go.

You've stated that you can't afford the money for a therapist or counselor. Talk to your bishop and see he feels your situation is worthy of aid. Because you apparently need help. You're still struggling, battling, and fighting your temptations, and you clearly feel the need to talk about it to someone. Also, the addiction recovery groups would be a huge benefit, and you ought to humble yourself a little more and take advantage of that program. The very premise of that program is that you can't do it alone. Yet you seem to insist that you must do it yourself.

Lastly, I might point out your reaction to your bishop not authorizing you to take the sacrament as soon as your previous bishop. You say it's strange, but it really isn't. What else are they supposed to do for a recurrent problem? If they slap your hand and tell you to wait a week between episodes before taking the Sacrament, they're doing you no service. They should be waiting to see lasting and consistent change.

Now, going forward, you may want to recognize that it's very obvious from how you've described yourself that you are young. If you hadn't stated your age and that you had served a mission, I likely would have pegged your for 18 or 19 years old. You've got a lot of the idiosyncrasies of late adolescence and still have a great deal of maturation to do. It would do you well not to get so defensive when someone points out your inconsistencies. Instead, you should evaluate them, decide what to do about them, and work to improve yourself.

Ok. Fair enough. I feel my issue was more with trying to see where misshalfway was coming from. I didn't understand what exactly she was referring to and the way I was understanding it right or not kinda got to me. I need help recognizing my inconsistencies. For the record in my post I wasn't yelling. Tone of voice isn't always successfully communicated through digital text.

You did a good job of pointing a few things out. I have thought about those things before. You are right. I DID take a long time to finally confess the first time. I do understand that not controlling your thoughts IS a violation of the law of chastity but I never thought, and still don't really think that it is something that requires confession to a bishop. Maybe in some cases. Maybe I should have. Maybe if I would have earlier I would never have had a problem. As a youth I think I justified it way too much. I became addicted to those thoughts. I'm still kinda fighting that. Its the foundation of this sin.

As for what I said about my bishop... it was hard for me. I desperately want this to be over. I want to be clean. I want to be done with the repentance process and just have to deal with the enduring to the end part. I put those things out there because I wanted your opinions. I needed to read what you guys said. Thats what I was hoping for and thats what I needed I think. I can really accept my bishops ruling and position now. Its still hard but I think its more clear now. I just wish that the communication between my bishop and I would have been a little more clear.

Heres the full story: I was called for an interview in my new student ward. They were going to give me a calling but before the counselor gave it to me he asked me if there was anything I wanted to talk to the bishop about. I talked to the bishop. At the end of the interview he said he was ok with me going to the temple and that I could partake of the sacrament this upcoming Sunday (a 2 weeks later because of conference) as long as I had not sinned. I left the bishops office and as I did he said to his counselor "go ahead and give him the calling." He gave me the calling, said I would be sustained on Sunday and I looked forward to it. I looked forward to the calling and I was in good standings. My conscious was clear and I felt an added determination to stop the habit and fully repent for good. Conference came around then Sunday and I waited to be sustained in sacrament meeting. They didn't call my name. Strange I thought. Maybe they will do it later or maybe they forgot (they said they might be forgetting some). I partook of the sacrament and thought that all was ok. At the end of the meeting I went over to the bishop to inquire about the sustaining and he seemed kind of flustered. Maybe thats not the right word. He took me aside, thought for a second, then in a quiet voice said, "I think we are going to wait a little while till this issue is resolved." I was a little surprised but not offended. Ok... I can do that. Then, about 3 days later I met with the bishop again (that was the date he wanted to meet with me again) and I told him I had been doing fine. I had had no occurrences. I was feeling good. I thought I was progressing. As the interview closed and we were about to stand up I said, "bishop. Real quick... uhh... I wanted to ask and be reassured about partaking of sacrament, going to the temple, and my calling. You said I can right?" He then told me that we were going to wait on the sacrament, that I shouldn't go to the temple, and that the calling was assigned to someone else. They just needed it done. And thats fine. I just wish someone would have told me so I wasn't telling another member that I was going to be working with that I was going to help him. Its fine though. I just feel bad personally because I guess I should not have partaken of the sacrament last Sunday. What if I would have gone to the temple? I'm glad I didn't sadly enough.

My take on it now despite me being upset (not mad at the bishop directly but frustrated at my situation) is that the bishop is entitled to revelation and following the Spirit. I feel he probably did. I just got my hopes up and then had them trampled down. I felt like my progress wasn't really progress at all.

All points and advice taken though. Thanks again. Tell what I'm wrong about if I'm wrong.

[Misshalfway]

I don't know if I am pegging you right. I may be way off. I don't know where you are in the repentance process. How would I? So, cut us a little slack here. Because we don't know you or really what you do in your spare time, all we can do is post from our experience. And I know you posted to have someone to talk to. Forgive that I didn't focus on that.

Sexual issues like this all behave the same regardless of the severity. Can you see that?

Is some of it normal? yes. Is some of it understandable? Yes. Do I think Gwen is right about exaggerations? Yes. The only thing that seems to be a problem is that you can't stop and what you have tried didn't work. So, that is why I post the way I do. If you are at the end of your repentance process and all is fine, what are we all doing here?

Beyond that, if anyone thinks that biking or other like activities is the soul solve for this, they really don't understand the problem. If it did, heck I'd open a bike shop and I'd be the richest woman in the world.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Misshalfway

[ConquestT4]

[jennvan]

Or what I've also seen is that when they hear that hymn, the bad thoughts come into their thoughts. The bad part of classical conditioning. It goes both ways.