Conversation with teenage daughter

[carlimac]

So after the "discussion" about all the gay hullaballoo in the media this past week following General Conference, (and the two threads that so abruptly got closed by one of the mods), I ran across some articles in the newpaper and "People" magazine in the grocery store telling about the gay bullying and suicides going on in high schools. I researched it a little more and found lots of news stories about it going on in jr high and elementary schools, too. So I had a private conversation with my 15 yr old about what goes on in her high school. Is she aware of any bullying? Does she know of any gays in her school? Her response was "Not at all!". There is no LGBT club, no gay-straight alliance, no one she knows who is obviously gay or who claims to be. There are over 1000 students.

Granted, she is fairly new to the area and maybe just hasn't gotten to know enough kids yet. But it's also a very conservative community. ABout 50% LDS and medium to lower income.

So my questions are these if anyone is aware of studies that have been done:

Are there actually fewer gay kids in conservative or religious communities?

Are there reliable statistics that show that a steady number of gay individuals will come from any population regardless of the religious leanings of the community?

Are liberal, non religious, aetheist families more likely to produce gay children?

Do more gay children come from higher income homes?

How do the high schools in your areas handle this swelling of suicides, due in part to gay bullying? Are there precautions being taken? Are the kids taught anything you're uncomfortable with? Do you feel the gay "agenda" being pushed in your local schools?

I think this is something we need to discuss together as LDS and I hope the thread isn't cancelled. This isn't the basic discussion about the validity of "gayness". It's about how we as LDS parents respond and teach our children about this. It's been said by some general authority (I don't know who, where, or when but was told this by my sister) that the gay issues will be the undoing of society in the last days. We need to discuss this openly and in the spirit of civility and respect so that we can learn from each other. Again mods, please don't close this thread unless it dies a natural death. Thanks!

Edited October 12, 2010 by carlimac

[Wingnut]

Are liberal, non religious, aetheist families more likely to produce gay children?

Do more gay children come from higher income homes?

These two questions show a gross amount of ignorance on your part. Gay people are gay because it's who they are, not because they aren't religious or because they're rich.

A better question might be "are liberal, non-religious, atheist families more likely to produce children who are more comfortably open about being gay?

It's been said by some general authority (I don't know who, where, or when but was told this by my sister) that the gay issues will be the undoing of society in the last days.

Please don't make statements such as this without being able to back them up.

[Just_A_Guy]

It's been said by some general authority (I don't know who, where, or when but was told this by my sister) that the gay issues will be the undoing of society in the last days. We need to discuss this openly and in the spirit of civility and respect so that we can learn from each other. Again mods, please don't close this thread unless it dies a natural death. Thanks!

Perhaps?

We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

That's not "gay issues", that's the breakdown of the family generally.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[carlimac]

These two questions show a gross amount of ignorance on your part. Gay people are gay because it's who they are, not because they aren't religious or because they're rich.

A better question might be "are liberal, non-religious, atheist families more likely to produce children who are more comfortably open about being gay?

Please don't make statements such as this without being able to back them up.

Why so hostile Wingnut? It's not gross ignorance at all. I'm interested to know if there are cultural or "regional" influences. Since there has been no biological cause positively identified as the sole reason some people are gay ( I agree it might play a part), what might other causes be? Family relations? The weather? THe amount of something in the water? If anything, from what I've observed, the boys around my area are being fed extra testosterone. Lots of machismo! I think it's a fair question. What cultural factors allow gay- just "who they are" people to come out? Or do the cultural norms of an area affect a person's gender orientation?

[Soulsearcher]

I think this is something we need to discuss together as LDS and I hope the thread isn't cancelled. This isn't the basic discussion about the validity of "gayness". It's about how we as LDS parents respond and teach our children about this

Funny enough that was exactly what the protests were trying to deal with, and what a lot of the posts in the other thread were about. If nothing was learned from them already, why keep looking when answers were given again and again?

Or do the cultural norms of an area affect a person's gender orientation?

They affect how the person deals with their orientation. When you know you're going to get the crap beat out of you every day, or disowned it tends to make you think twice about being honest.

[Soulsearcher]

Please don't make statements such as this without being able to back them up.

Spencer W. Kimbal

"Homosexuality . . . means waste of power, an end to the family and to civilization. One generation of it would depopulate the world . . ."

I've read more but can't find them right now, will update you. I do remember the one saying Gays are the biggest threat mankind has ever faced, just can't remember who said it. Edited October 12, 2010 by Soulsearcher
wrong source for quote

[carlimac]

Funny enough that was exactly what the protests were trying to deal with, and what a lot of the posts in the other thread were about. If nothing was learned from them already, why keep looking when answers were given again and again?

No, these are different questions. I'm trying to focus on the personal experiences of people on this forum. Is gay bullying a problem in your (meaning anyone reading this thread) area? If there are very few recognizable gay kids in a given high school- why is that? Is it because they haven't come out cause they are scared of having the crap beaten out of them, or are there truely fewer gay kids in different cultural areas? If gay bullying IS a problem in your city what are your schools doing about it, if anything? Are the schools crossing a line that LDS parents are uncomfortable with in dealing with the problem- like as in some CA schools-mandating gay education for elementary kids? How do we as LDS parents talk to our children about the problem?

Please READ my questions. I haven't seen the answers to any of them on recent threads. Please don't treat me like an idiot (that goes for my usual bashers). I think these are fair questions. I'm not trying to start an argument, not trying to rehash whether SSA is biological or not or what the deep meaning of Pres Packers talk was. I'm not really even trying to discuss doctrine. I'm coming from a very practical position as a mother of teens who is anxious to teach my children in the right way about this prickly issue. I"m also curious about the real-life experiences of other LDS families and their school situations rather than just reading media stories.

Fair enough?

If THESE PARTICULAR PROBLEMS have been discussed on lds.net forums already, point me to them.

[Soulsearcher]

No, these are different questions. I'm trying to focus on the personal experiences of people on this forum. Is gay bullying a problem in your (meaning anyone reading this thread) area? If there are very few recognizable gay kids in a given high school- why is that? Is it because they haven't come out cause they are scared of having the crap beaten out of them, or are there truely fewer gay kids in different cultural areas? If gay bullying IS a problem in your city what are your schools doing about it, if anything? Are the schools crossing a line that LDS parents are uncomfortable with in dealing with the problem- like as in some CA schools-mandating gay education for elementary kids? How do we as LDS parents talk to our children about the problem?

Please READ my questions. I haven't seen the answers to any of them on recent threads. Please don't treat me like an idiot (that goes for my usual bashers). I think these are fair questions. I'm not trying to start an argument, not trying to rehash whether SSA is biological or not or what the deep meaning of Pres Packers talk was. I'm not really even trying to discuss doctrine. I'm coming from a very practical position as a mother of teens who is anxious to teach my children in the right way about this prickly issue. I"m also curious about the real-life experiences of other LDS families and their school situations rather than just reading media stories.

Fair enough?

If THESE PARTICULAR PROBLEMS have been discussed on lds.net forums already, point me to them.

The protest that you were so against was focused at bringing to light the way a significant portion of LDS deal with the issue. How they and by extension their children respond to this issue. So while not trying to paint you as an idiot, the entire protest and discussion over it wasn't biological/non-biological, it's how members in the past and currently approach it and how it impacts others, either leading to bullying or harassment. While in all honesty i think some of the questions you are asking have great merit, i wonder if you are open to the understanding that as was said in the protests, lds members don't really see how they come across? I'm very sure most of the members who have caused the most damage haven't realized it or had the desire to do it, but when approached on how to change it, they don't desire to listen. I'll ask you as a mother of teens, are you willing to listen to gay people who have been on the receiving end of how LDS deal with the situation and see where the issues come from, maybe see if as a mother you can teach your kids a way of communicating with out causing harm, and by extension learning yourself?

As in how or what to teach LDS kids i can kinda Chime in on how i handled it being a parental figure for 5 LDS kids. First i told their mother, i explained most things, was very open and honest and asked it be kept from the children until it needed to be discussed. She made a choice as a mother to out me with out telling me, so for months the kids knew with out my knowledge which lead to some uncomfortable times later. Her reasoning was two fold, she didn't want the kids to get their hopes up because i was actually happy with who i was dating and she didn't want them thinking it might lead to anything, and two she didn't trust my ability to control myself in front of her children. The first i understand, and while it was some what upsetting i don't fault her for looking out for her kids. The second was very hurtful. Not only do i know her standards the fact that she thought i couldn't keep my hands to myself was concerning, and her doubt only came from the fact that i was now dating another man, so preconceptions and stereo types are something to consider teaching against as a parent, taking each person as an individual and going by their actual actions not what you are afraid they might do is something to think about. Their uncle is also gay and her mom has been up and down as to how she responds to him. Sometimes she's loving and supportive, other times she's painted him as the devil and it can be inconsistent for the kids. So a few months later when i talk to the kids about things i find out they know i was lying to them and that was hard. I don't like lying and i don't like lying to kids i raised not to lie. Thank fully i didn't have to address it to the younger 2 (10 and 12) so i only had to focus with the 16 year old girl and the 17 year old boy.

The girl was the hardest because being her father pretty much gave up on her I've been the closest thing she has to a father for most of her life. She's wanted me to have a family and such, one of her biggest dreams, but now seeing that won't happen was very hard for her. We've sat and talked a few times and covered a lot of ground. One of our longest talks started with "how do you go from pursuing an lds girl to dating a guy?", and progressed to marriage and adoption. While i'm not sure where everything ended she was very willing to listen and learn, share her views and at the end make sure i knew not one thing changed. We actually talk guys together some times and make jokes about who is getting married first. She still comes to me for advice on boys and dating like she always has( we'll since she realized i wasn't fully serious about hanging any guy who asked her out) and most important is not one thing in how she treats me has changed, she see's no difference in who i am now vs who i was when i raised her, she doesn't care who i date, she leaves the rest up to god the only thing she wants is me happy and alive and with someone who loves and appreciates me.

The 17 year old boy was even easier. He spent the day with me and my boy friend at a concert. I didn't know he knew, i had just billed it as a guys day out so 4 of us went to the concert. I found out months later that the kid knew and had no problems, he was actually more upset we broke up than anything. He said it wasn't his place to say anything and i needed to live my life to be happy. LOL Actually suggested moving in with me not long ago, but i said i wasn't sure that was the best idea.

Their mother has let the friendship die, we used to be the only support the other had and when i hit one of the hardest times in my life she walked away. She said she felt like she lost her friend so i wrote her a letter explaining everything, talking about my struggle, how i held nothing against her, understood her stance and her actions and that she'd done nothing wrong. Let her know i did feel a little uncomfortable staying with them but time with her and the kids i raised was so much more important than a little discomfort and i hoped she felt the same about time with me. After 4 months i still haven't heard back and i really just don't have the desire to open myself up again. As for the younger 2 kids i really don't want to have to talk to them about it, but if i have to i hope they will have the same love and support for me their siblings have. They live in a very mormon town and have commented on a few gay teens in their school, they've commented on how harsh and vocal the judgment has been and that they just kinda sit back and enjoy the person. I had to laugh when i heard my lil girl talking about exchanging make up tips with one of the guys. The kids do worry about what the culture will do to me and the kids they know, though my lil girl commented that a seminary lesson a few years ago really opened her eyes, she said that lesson kind of reset everything she'd been taught from her parents and church before that.

I'll also hope that schools have changed. I know growing up a lot of kids assumed i was gay and i got beaten or harassed most every day. Started in grade school and went up til my last year in high school til i got my first date so people would get off my back. Though even among adults i still hear the word "Fag or Faggot" used by many adults both in and out side the church as a slur meant to belittle and cause harm. I tend to think the adults need to think and learn and then pass it on, though i'm finding some kids can learn on their own, but a good environment in and out of the home conducive to learning is the best solution.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Soulsearcher

[MarginOfError]

I went to a high school of about 400 people. I know of two openly gay males, an openly gay female, and one transsexual attending during my senior year. There are others that were suspected to be gay (although without much evidence other than mannerisms), and a couple of girls that reported being bisexual. In a group of 400 people, you could reasonably expect 10 - 16 people to have same gender attraction, so the numbers weren't that far off.

If there are 1,000 kids in your daughter's high school, I would expect that 25 - 40 of them are same-gender attracted. Most with same gender attraction won't admit it in high school, and those that do probably won't admit it until later in high school. Much of this is driven by the fact that kids know that kids are cruel to those who are different, and whereas homosexuals make up only 3 - 4% of the population, they know that they are different.

Given the demographics that you report (50% LDS), it's even more unlikely that kids would bring their sexuality into the open. The #1 reason people don't come out is fear of social rejection.

Now, to answer your questions

Are there actually fewer gay kids in conservative or religious communities?

No. There are just fewer who will admit to it.

Are there reliable statistics that show that a steady number of gay individuals will come from any population regardless of the religious leanings of the community?

Yes. And this body of work is growing.

Are liberal, non religious, aetheist families more likely to produce gay children?

No. People from these backgrounds are more likely to admit their sexuality.

Do more gay children come from higher income homes?

No. But more children from high income families will admit their sexuality. This is a confounded effect. It's pretty well documented that the better educated are more likely to admit their sexuality, and education is strongly correlated with income. So you'll have more openly homosexual people coming from educated/wealthy backgrounds.

Any discrepancies you see between reported homosexuality between class, ethnicity, socio-economic status, or education is almost always accounted for in a reporting bias.

[hordak]

Do more gay children come from higher income homes?

No. But more children from high income families will admit their sexuality. This is a confounded effect. It's pretty well documented that the better educated are more likely to admit their sexuality, and education is strongly correlated with income. So you'll have more openly homosexual people coming from educated/wealthy backgrounds.

Any discrepancies you see between reported homosexuality between class, ethnicity, socio-economic status, or education is almost always accounted for in a reporting bias.

If the more educated are more likely to admit there sexuality (assuming you mean same sex attraction), this indicates the less educated are less likely. If the less educated are reporting same sex attraction in lower numbers as the educated how do we know they are less likely to admit it, and not just affected by it less?

It seems like the chicken or the egg. If you start with the assumption that homosexuality is a choice then the discrepancies will read to you that people are choosing it. If you start with the assumption that it is genetic, then the discrepancies are read as reporting bias.

Personally i think we banned human cloning way too early and could answer the nature vs nurture arguments, for this and many other issues, with that scientific breakthrough.

[MarginOfError]

If the more educated are more likely to admit there sexuality (assuming you mean same sex attraction), this indicates the less educated are less likely. If the less educated are reporting same sex attraction in lower numbers as the educated how do we know they are less likely to admit it, and not just affected by it less?

I guess I should have said admit it openly. People will tell interviewers and answer survey questions with slightly more honesty than they do to their peers. This is particularly true when anonymity can be ensured.

There are also methods of collecting such data that allow the respondent to answer a question without the interviewer knowing what question was asked. A simple example of such is the respondent is given a stack of cards. half the cards have the question "Do you drink root beer?" and have the cards have the question "Are you a homosexual?" The interviewer records the response, but doesn't know what question is being answered. With a large enough group of respondents, you can actually get surprisingly good estimates for how much of the population drinks root beer and how much of the population is homosexual.

[Bini]

I'll comment on the cultural aspect. In Asia we have "lady boys" that are homosexuals in transgender appearance. They are very very very common. I'm not certain if any of these individuals were groomed for such lifestyle but lady boys make good money as spot-light entertainers and some unfortunately as high-priced prostitutes. Depending on the area you're in, you'd never know if that beautiful woman you're eyeballing is in fact a man. I saw a show on the Discovery Channel I think it was, where some of these men are heterosexual but because they can make a great living as a lady boy, do so and it allows them to provide for their family. It's amazing the choices a person will make to survive in poverty and ensure security for their loved ones. You just can't possibly judge, nor should we.

[Blackmarch]

These two questions show a gross amount of ignorance on your part. Gay people are gay because it's who they are, not because they aren't religious or because they're rich.

A better question might be "are liberal, non-religious, atheist families more likely to produce children who are more comfortably open about being gay?

Please don't make statements such as this without being able to back them up.

who someone is comes from many many variables, which include genetics, culture, how they are treated, what choices they make, what friends and peers they are with, social standing, and etc... if someone is ignorant then provide info or a link to info that you believe is good for making them not so ignorant.

The question is as good as yours, nor has it been completely resolved yet as far as I am aware.... and secondly I'd advise caution when deciding that whatever research proves beyond question of whatever supposed fact.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Blackmarch

[carlimac]

The protest that you were so against was focused at bringing to light the way a significant portion of LDS deal with the issue. How they and by extension their children respond to this issue. So while not trying to paint you as an idiot, the entire protest and discussion over it wasn't biological/non-biological, it's how members in the past and currently approach it and how it impacts others, either leading to bullying or harassment. While in all honesty i think some of the questions you are asking have great merit, i wonder if you are open to the understanding that as was said in the protests, lds members don't really see how they come across? I'm very sure most of the members who have caused the most damage haven't realized it or had the desire to do it, but when approached on how to change it, they don't desire to listen. I'll ask you as a mother of teens, are you willing to listen to gay people who have been on the receiving end of how LDS deal with the situation and see where the issues come from, maybe see if as a mother you can teach your kids a way of communicating with out causing harm, and by extension learning yourself?

As in how or what to teach LDS kids i can kinda Chime in on how i handled it being a parental figure for 5 LDS kids. First i told their mother, i explained most things, was very open and honest and asked it be kept from the children until it needed to be discussed. She made a choice as a mother to out me with out telling me, so for months the kids knew with out my knowledge which lead to some uncomfortable times later. Her reasoning was two fold, she didn't want the kids to get their hopes up because i was actually happy with who i was dating and she didn't want them thinking it might lead to anything, and two she didn't trust my ability to control myself in front of her children. The first i understand, and while it was some what upsetting i don't fault her for looking out for her kids. The second was very hurtful. Not only do i know her standards the fact that she thought i couldn't keep my hands to myself was concerning, and her doubt only came from the fact that i was now dating another man, so preconceptions and stereo types are something to consider teaching against as a parent, taking each person as an individual and going by their actual actions not what you are afraid they might do is something to think about. Their uncle is also gay and her mom has been up and down as to how she responds to him. Sometimes she's loving and supportive, other times she's painted him as the devil and it can be inconsistent for the kids. So a few months later when i talk to the kids about things i find out they know i was lying to them and that was hard. I don't like lying and i don't like lying to kids i raised not to lie. Thank fully i didn't have to address it to the younger 2 (10 and 12) so i only had to focus with the 16 year old girl and the 17 year old boy.

The girl was the hardest because being her father pretty much gave up on her I've been the closest thing she has to a father for most of her life. She's wanted me to have a family and such, one of her biggest dreams, but now seeing that won't happen was very hard for her. We've sat and talked a few times and covered a lot of ground. One of our longest talks started with "how do you go from pursuing an lds girl to dating a guy?", and progressed to marriage and adoption. While i'm not sure where everything ended she was very willing to listen and learn, share her views and at the end make sure i knew not one thing changed. We actually talk guys together some times and make jokes about who is getting married first. She still comes to me for advice on boys and dating like she always has( we'll since she realized i wasn't fully serious about hanging any guy who asked her out) and most important is not one thing in how she treats me has changed, she see's no difference in who i am now vs who i was when i raised her, she doesn't care who i date, she leaves the rest up to god the only thing she wants is me happy and alive and with someone who loves and appreciates me.

The 17 year old boy was even easier. He spent the day with me and my boy friend at a concert. I didn't know he knew, i had just billed it as a guys day out so 4 of us went to the concert. I found out months later that the kid knew and had no problems, he was actually more upset we broke up than anything. He said it wasn't his place to say anything and i needed to live my life to be happy. LOL Actually suggested moving in with me not long ago, but i said i wasn't sure that was the best idea.

Their mother has let the friendship die, we used to be the only support the other had and when i hit one of the hardest times in my life she walked away. She said she felt like she lost her friend so i wrote her a letter explaining everything, talking about my struggle, how i held nothing against her, understood her stance and her actions and that she'd done nothing wrong. Let her know i did feel a little uncomfortable staying with them but time with her and the kids i raised was so much more important than a little discomfort and i hoped she felt the same about time with me. After 4 months i still haven't heard back and i really just don't have the desire to open myself up again. As for the younger 2 kids i really don't want to have to talk to them about it, but if i have to i hope they will have the same love and support for me their siblings have. They live in a very mormon town and have commented on a few gay teens in their school, they've commented on how harsh and vocal the judgment has been and that they just kinda sit back and enjoy the person. I had to laugh when i heard my lil girl talking about exchanging make up tips with one of the guys. The kids do worry about what the culture will do to me and the kids they know, though my lil girl commented that a seminary lesson a few years ago really opened her eyes, she said that lesson kind of reset everything she'd been taught from her parents and church before that.

I'll also hope that schools have changed. I know growing up a lot of kids assumed i was gay and i got beaten or harassed most every day. Started in grade school and went up til my last year in high school til i got my first date so people would get off my back. Though even among adults i still hear the word "Fag or Faggot" used by many adults both in and out side the church as a slur meant to belittle and cause harm. I tend to think the adults need to think and learn and then pass it on, though i'm finding some kids can learn on their own, but a good environment in and out of the home conducive to learning is the best solution.

You're lucky your kids have been so accepting of you. I'm sure it's made things easier.

[carlimac]

I'll comment on the cultural aspect. In Asia we have "lady boys" that are homosexuals in transgender appearance. They are very very very common. I'm not certain if any of these individuals were groomed for such lifestyle but lady boys make good money as spot-light entertainers and some unfortunately as high-priced prostitutes. Depending on the area you're in, you'd never know if that beautiful woman you're eyeballing is in fact a man. I saw a show on the Discovery Channel I think it was, where some of these men are heterosexual but because they can make a great living as a lady boy, do so and it allows them to provide for their family. It's amazing the choices a person will make to survive in poverty and ensure security for their loved ones. You just can't possibly judge, nor should we.

This world is just so strange sometimes! I guess I'm glad I live in a reeeeaaallly boring, rural, conservative part of the Western US.

[Soulsearcher]

You're lucky your kids have been so accepting of you. I'm sure it's made things easier.

Not really, they are the minority in life. Still find more people who want jump on what i do wrong vs actually look at me as a person. Very few ask or talk to me they just have a generic label and go from there. While i do understand your objection to education in schools, there is some logic to understanding the enemy, and yes right now i find myself the enemy more than a loved son of god, and trust me I'm not alone in the feeling. Talking directly to and asking questions directly of people going through or living and experience has almost always been the best way to learn. The LDS believe this very strongly being their advice is always "if you want to learn about the church, ask a member of the church, not an outside source." I wonder if you'd be ok with losing the school education program if Homosexuals took to a missionary styled program. Two young homosexual come into your home and teach your family. ( no this isn't being snotty or mocking, it's a serious question) Understanding the doctrine of the church is fine, but it doesn't mean you understand the people. Love the sinner is kinda hard when you keep them at a ten foot distance and use a pole to love them. I tend to think of Jesus and the lepers when i think of LDS and gay people. Get your hands dirty up close and personal, so that "love the sinner" isn't just words and means action and compassion as well. Talk to them, ask them questions, know the person not just the label. Some will say they do this, that they approach with an open mind and really want to learn. I ask my self if this is true, then why so scared of classes that teach kids not to beat the crap out of a kid, you teach your lessons at home and enough of the kids get the wrong idea out of them, so if you aren't teaching them the human side, maybe someone should?

[Wingnut]

Spencer W. Kimbal

I've read more but can't find them right now, will update you. I do remember the one saying Gays are the biggest threat mankind has ever faced, just can't remember who said it.

Thanks. I don't have a problem with the quote, or that it may have been offered at some point, but the way carlimac said it made it sound like something that someone made up along the way and attributed to a General Authority, and that carli may have been unwittingly going along with that, as did her sister, and whoever fed the quote to her, too. Something like that is a big statement to make, and I'm not comfortable with it without an actual citation. Still, do you have a source, as opposed to just a name?

Why so hostile Wingnut?

Not hostile, just exasperated.

Soul and MOE explained better than I did what I was going for. Sorry.

They affect how the person deals with their orientation. When you know you're going to get the crap beat out of you every day, or disowned it tends to make you think twice about being honest.

I went to a high school of about 400 people. I know of two openly gay males, an openly gay female, and one transsexual attending during my senior year. There are others that were suspected to be gay (although without much evidence other than mannerisms), and a couple of girls that reported being bisexual. In a group of 400 people, you could reasonably expect 10 - 16 people to have same gender attraction, so the numbers weren't that far off.

If there are 1,000 kids in your daughter's high school, I would expect that 25 - 40 of them are same-gender attracted. Most with same gender attraction won't admit it in high school, and those that do probably won't admit it until later in high school. Much of this is driven by the fact that kids know that kids are cruel to those who are different, and whereas homosexuals make up only 3 - 4% of the population, they know that they are different.

Given the demographics that you report (50% LDS), it's even more unlikely that kids would bring their sexuality into the open. The #1 reason people don't come out is fear of social rejection.

Now, to answer your questions

Are there actually fewer gay kids in conservative or religious communities?

No. There are just fewer who will admit to it.

Are there reliable statistics that show that a steady number of gay individuals will come from any population regardless of the religious leanings of the community?

Yes. And this body of work is growing.

Are liberal, non religious, aetheist families more likely to produce gay children?

No. People from these backgrounds are more likely to admit their sexuality.

Do more gay children come from higher income homes?

No. But more children from high income families will admit their sexuality. This is a confounded effect. It's pretty well documented that the better educated are more likely to admit their sexuality, and education is strongly correlated with income. So you'll have more openly homosexual people coming from educated/wealthy backgrounds.

Any discrepancies you see between reported homosexuality between class, ethnicity, socio-economic status, or education is almost always accounted for in a reporting bias.

[rameumptom]

I'm not convinced there is a "swelling" of gay suicides going on, rather these were very prominently discussed in the news and on blogs. They are definitely tragedies, and we need to discuss bullying of ALL types, not just of one minority. Teen suicides are on the uptick, but for several reasons. Over-focusing on one form of it leaves out those who are bullied because of weight, being nerdy, or just being different in some manner.

And MOE, could you please share with us where you got your statistics/findings? It is easy to answer with your opinion, it is another thing to state things as evidential, but without giving the source.

[Soulsearcher]

I'm not convinced there is a "swelling" of gay suicides going on, rather these were very prominently discussed in the news and on blogs. They are definitely tragedies, and we need to discuss bullying of ALL types, not just of one minority. Teen suicides are on the uptick, but for several reasons. Over-focusing on one form of it leaves out those who are bullied because of weight, being nerdy, or just being different in some manner.

And MOE, could you please share with us where you got your statistics/findings? It is easy to answer with your opinion, it is another thing to state things as evidential, but without giving the source.

While i agree teen suicide in general is on the up swing, the issue is even before the up swing, gay teen suicides with in the church were already on the upswing and are still higher than the other causes for suicide. There hasn't been a noticeable decline, just an increase. Sadly i don't have the link to stats i usually get them from another members and not been able to talk to him much as of late.

[carlimac]

While i agree teen suicide in general is on the up swing, the issue is even before the up swing, gay teen suicides with in the church were already on the upswing and are still higher than the other causes for suicide. There hasn't been a noticeable decline, just an increase. Sadly i don't have the link to stats i usually get them from another members and not been able to talk to him much as of late.

But you know, even the suicide of a gay LDS teen could be motivated by more than just LDS doctrine and words of leaders. Some kids who are perfectionists commit suicide- gay and straight, LDS or not. . Some suffer from depression, gay or straight, LDS or not. I know of a kid- a sweet, funny LDS boy I knew when he was about 5 who supposedly committed suicide when he was 20. I later learned that he was gay but also a drug addict. He died of an overdose. He had lived a reckless life. Was it suicide or a drug accident? They don't really know.

So although I know our doctrine can be hard on gay LDS kids, they may have a host of other psychological problems going on, too. It's unfair to peg all the suicides on the church and especially on the words of one or two general authorities. That's just too far fetched.

[Soulsearcher]

But you know, even the suicide of a gay LDS teen could be motivated by more than just LDS doctrine and words of leaders. Some kids who are perfectionists commit suicide- gay and straight, LDS or not. . Some suffer from depression, gay or straight, LDS or not. I know of a kid- a sweet, funny LDS boy I knew when he was about 5 who supposedly committed suicide when he was 20. I later learned that he was gay but also a drug addict. He died of an overdose. He had lived a reckless life. Was it suicide or a drug accident? They don't really know.

So although I know our doctrine can be hard on gay LDS kids, they may have a host of other psychological problems going on, too. It's unfair to peg all the suicides on the church and especially on the words of one or two general authorities. That's just too far fetched.

No, but would talking to them as people and listening really be far fetched? LDS alone have a high high depression and suicide rate. One question of the youth you knew was did the cultural view and treatment of him lead to the drugs? I'm not saying for sure it was, but it's something to look at. Why not try and remove the pressure on the youth to be something they may not be and help them deal with the other issues? The suicides may not be just the words of the church and leaders, but when misapplied applied by mother, father, siblings, extended family, teachers, and some of the church community daily, even with other mental issues, is it hard to see a cumulative effect on the person. Also It's not just a few GA's, it was also said by prophets and such before they realized it wasn't a disease and shouldn't be treated as such. I'm not saying there aren't other reasons, but i am asking shouldn't we be looking for ways to make sure less kids kill themselves in stead of bickering on if we play a part or not? The only way to make a difference is to ask, to listen and not judge. Preaching is great, but listening sometimes has a much greater effect and means they might actually become receptive to some of what you say after.

[carlimac]

If I knew one well enough, I would listen. But at the moment, I don't know of any. Truth is that many of these people disappear off into the world of inactivity and the gay community long before we even know they are gay. If they aren't willing to stick around and give the members a chance to love them and include them, how are we supposed to listen to them. The only people I've known are gay never let on till they had already left the church and moved on with their lives. I never heard a word about WHY they left until many years later. I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same for many other members who are puzzled by the complaints of gays and lesbians that they are being bullied by church members. How can we be bullying them if they aren't around to bully?

I did have one girl my age in my ward who was always a friend. Lived up the street from me. We grew up together. She was a little grumpy so I didn't like to hang out with her all that much. We developed different friends in high school.But she was always active in the church. I went to her wedding reception and that was the last I heard of her till our high school reunion many years later where she said she had gotten divorced and had gone off to win some race in the Gay Games. That came as a shock. I never suspected it even a tiny bit.

The only people I know at church that I would presently even suspect are gay or lesbian by their mannerisms are apparently happily married with children.

Edited October 13, 2010 by carlimac

[Soulsearcher]

If I knew one well enough, I would listen. But at the moment, I don't know of any. Truth is that many of these people disappear off into the world of inactivity and the gay community long before we even know they are gay. If they aren't willing to stick around and give the members a chance to love them and include them, how are we supposed to listen to them. The only people I've known are gay never let on till they had already left the church and moved on with their lives. I never heard a word about WHY they left until many years later. I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same for many other members who are puzzled by the complaints that they are being bullied by church members. How can we be bullying them if they aren't around to bully?

I did have one girl my age in my ward who was always a friend. Lived up the street from me. We grew up together. She was a little grumpy so I didn't like to hang out with her all that much. But I went to her wedding reception and that was the last I heard of her till our high school reunion many years later where she said she had gotten divorced and had gone off to win some race in the Gay Games. That came as a shock. I never suspected even a tiny bit.

The only people I know at church that I would presently even suspect are gay or lesbian by their mannerisms are apparently happily married with children.

This actually is a very compelling reason to my points. Why do people think they didn't know til years later. The people who feel like they are less be it gay or addicts in the church don't feel they can talk with out judgment. Less judgment, less preaching more listening and watching. The thing is to watch for them. It's not always easy, but i've found i can usually see young people in the church who are struggling, at least in my experience, those are the ones that need to be talked to and listened to.

[carlimac]

This actually is a very compelling reason to my points. Why do people think they didn't know til years later. The people who feel like they are less be it gay or addicts in the church don't feel they can talk with out judgment. Less judgment, less preaching more listening and watching. The thing is to watch for them. It's not always easy, but i've found i can usually see young people in the church who are struggling, at least in my experience, those are the ones that need to be talked to and listened to.

Good point. We always need to watch out for the lonely or those who recede into the backgound. Everyone needs our love. But I guess I'm just not a good judge of who is gay and who is not unless I'm at my haircutter- who is! He does a great job on my hair. I have no idea of his religious affiliations if any. I'd guess Catholic.

[Soulsearcher]

Good point. We always need to watch out for the lonely or those who recede into the backgound. Everyone needs our love. But I guess I'm just not a good judge of who is gay and who is not unless I'm at my haircutter- who is! He does a great job on my hair. I have no idea of his religious affiliations if any. I'd guess Catholic.

We don't listen to find gay people we listen and then we find them. We should never need a reason to seek out the lost, lonely and outcast, it is our calling is it not as humans? Some people can tell i am some can't. I put a lot of work into not being noticeable, my youth taught me that. Let them trust you, let them know you are there and you'll be surprised what happens. like the movie said "build it and they will come" Build the reputation and aura of trust and love and those who need it most will run to you, not away from you.