Bill Bradshaw on a Biological Origin of Homosexuality

[GaySaint]

I just got finished listening to this podcast:

191: BYU Professor Bill Bradshaw on a Biological Origin of Homosexuality | Mormon Stories Podcast

If you have not listened to it, Dr. William Bradshaw of BYU’s Department of Microbiology and Molecular Biology delivered a lecture entitled “The Evidence For A Biological Origin For Homosexuality” at Brigham Young University.

Dr. Bradshaw is a former mission president, former member of a stake presidency, has written about the biology of homosexuality elsewhere, and was covered by BYU’s Daily Universe.

My favorite quote is: "I would like my gay brothers and sisters, regardless of their circumstance, to sit next to me in sarament."

Yes, I'm starting another thread, sorry =)

I can say without any reservation: Bill Bradshaw is my favorite member of the church, ever.

The beginning is very scientific - but after the first 40 minutes it gets very sincere and quite wonderful.

I don't think this has been posted before, but I sincerly wish every member of the church would take the time to listen to this presentation.

Edited October 15, 2010 by GaySaint

[HiJolly]

I second the motion. Excellent presentation.

HiJolly

[Mahonri]

With a degree in Biology, all I can say is....

Interesting podcast.

It didn't change my perspective.

In Brother Bradshaw's own words, "There is not a single pathway that determines sexuality." "There's not very much evidence for this..." That says it all for me.

When one ACTS upon their 'desires' it is a CHOICE. Whatever that desire may be.

Hopefully our desires will be to ACT within the bounds the Lord has set.

Each of us come from the pre-existence to the Earth with our own little set of blessings and also challenges.

Some of us are blessed with great blessings and talents.

Some of us are handicapped in one way or another.

Some of us will never have the opportunity to be married.

Through all of the blessings and challenges and handicaps we are given, we are all given the same thing: "Moral Agency".

As we stay withing the bounds the Lord has set we will be blessed.

It might be against my nature to be buff and muscular, but I can make choices to take care of my body.

I may have a hereditary disease that makes it hard for me to do this or that... I know some who because of their 'genes' have a hard time fasting. I could go on with endless examples.

It's all how we use our agency and stay within the bounds the Lord has set as we sojourn during this mortal probation.

Our God is a God of miracles. He can even bless us to overcome any natural influence that we were given here as "our challenge".

All of us sin. All of us depend upon the Love of Our Lord and his Infinite atonement, but that atonement can only have effect in our personal lives as we REPENT and as we come to know the sweet blessings that flow from strict obedience to His commandments and stay true and faithful to the principles taught and receive the ordinances and the required revelation to save ourselves and our families and return to live with Him again one day.

God is Love.

[GaySaint]

Mahonri: I don't think anyone (particularly myself) was trying to suggest that BEHAVIOR can't be controlled. I can think of very few instances where someone can't deny themselves, or act in any way they please (torrets may be an exception, and perhaps even a plausible comparison).

What I was impressed with was the understanding and compassion of this man. His view of his gay brothers and sisters both inside and outside of the church is one that could be very healing if it were adopted by the majority of the church membership.

I have never wanted to go back to church more than when he said (paraphrased): I want to see my gay brothers and sisters, regardless of their current status, sitting next to me in sacrament meeting.

I wish I knew what ward he was in, because I'd be there this Sunday. There aren't many members of the church who have the ability to make me feel that way... although I am happy to say that that number is growing.

God is a God of love, and he has chosen NOT to provide the "miracle" of removing homosexuality from me or many other faithful LDS members who have to deal with same-gender attraction. His reasons are His own for this, and we do not have revelation as a church in regards to why this miracle almost never occurs. But that doesn't mean we get to question His motives.

Maybe it is because He must abide by the laws of physics and cannot change our DNA. Maybe it is because He has some other purpose in the existance of homosexuality. Who knows.

But Bill Bradshaw understands this - and his understanding makes his compassion very very real. In addition to changing the minds of members of the church and giving them the ability to understand this issue, he has changed my mind and given me more compassion for the members of the church - and I think that is a great great thing.

[Gwen]

thank you saint for sharing. i must say i almost didn't listen to it cause quite frankly it's too long. lol but i did. and i'm glad i did. i have to admit i didn't follow it completely cause i'm not a real technical person. but i did enjoy it, did learn something, gives me something to think on, and i'm glad i decided to take the time.

and saint, you can sit with me in church anytime. i'm not as educated as this guy but i can promise you my children are very entertaining. lol

[nochederabanos]

I just listened to this presentation - very enlightening. As a amateur statastician, I would like to see the evidence a little more closely - the measurement error while trying to measure my 2D:4D ratio on my own hand was very high :), but he makes a strong case.

A lot of the conservative LDS folks focus on the control of behavior. In my church experience, I can say that certainly there are gay men who have testimonies, and can control behavior, although it is a difficult and highly depressing for them. However, it is even more difficult (and depressing not to be able) to keep the other commandments about celestial marriage and multiplying and replenishing the earth, and this is probably the issue that I would like to hear thoughts on in this forum.

Many ask why God would cause men to have these tendancies, and answer similarly to Mahonri's answer, which may be correct, but only address the lesser half of the issue. I would like to ask why God would not provide the ability to follow the marriage commandment, if it really is universal. It is like giving Adam and Eve only the first commandment (don't partake of the fruit), while leaving out the second (multiply and replenish). I hope that this issue is not fully revealed or understood yet, and that it may be, in time.

[Elphaba]

Many ask why God would cause men to have these tendancies, and answer similarly to Mahonri's answer, which may be correct, but only address the lesser half of the issue. I would like to ask why God would not provide the ability to follow the marriage commandment, if it really is universal. It is like giving Adam and Eve only the first commandment (don't partake of the fruit), while leaving out the second (multiply and replenish). I hope that this issue is not fully revealed or understood yet, and that it may be, in time.

According to Elders Oaks and Wickman, at lds.org, a person who is gay will have the chance to follow the marriage commandment and enjoy all the blessings derived thereof, but not while they're mortal.

They say that once the person has passed on, all same-sex attractions will disappear and at that point the person will be able to marry someone of the opposite sex, have children, etc., for eternity.

Elphaba

[Just_A_Guy]

FWIW - there are other segments of the population that, for various reasons, are simply incapable of following commandments God has given. For example - we are told that the command to repent and be baptized applies to all; but there are some people who simply lack the mental capacity to do so.

So the general question of why God gives commands that some people just aren't wired to fulfill is a good and valid one--but we should bear in mind that, from a purely doctrinal standpoint, it isn't only gays who face this scenario.

[i'm not trying to say that the experiences are similar from a practical point of view; just that the theological conundrum is identical.]

[jennvan]

According to Elders Oaks and Wickman, at lds.org, a person who is gay will have the chance to follow the marriage commandment and enjoy all the blessings derived thereof, but not while they're mortal.

They say that once the person has passed on, all same-sex attractions will disappear and at that point the person will be able to marry someone of the opposite sex, have children, etc., for eternity.

Elphaba

Not that I disagree, I'm just looking for a reference. Can you post one, please?

[jennvan]

FWIW - there are other segments of the population that, for various reasons, are simply incapable of following commandments God has given. For example - we are told that the command to repent and be baptized applies to all; but there are some people who simply lack the mental capacity to do so.

So the general question of why God gives commands that some people just aren't wired to fulfill is a good and valid one--but we should bear in mind that, from a purely doctrinal standpoint, it isn't only gays who face this scenario.

[i'm not trying to say that the experiences are similar from a practical point of view; just that the theological conundrum is identical.]

Like the many women I know who never married in this life. They don't get to multiply and replenish or have marriage in this life. From scripture, there is hope that that may happen in the millennium but not in this life. It does happen where there is a contradiction.

[GaySaint]

The most RECENT statement by the church that I can think of in regards to what will happen to homosexuals in the afterlife comes from God Loveth His Children:

You are best served by concentrating on the things you can presently understand and control, not wasting energy or enlarging frustration by worrying about that which God has not yet fully revealed.

[Elphaba]

Not that I disagree, I'm just looking for a reference. Can you post one, please?

Here you go: Same Gender Attraction

From the interview:

ELDER WICKMAN: One question that might be asked by somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is, “Is this something I’m stuck with forever? What bearing does this have on eternal life? If I can somehow make it through this life, when I appear on the other side, what will I be like?”

Gratefully, the answer is that same-gender attraction did not exist in the pre-earth life and neither will it exist in the next life. It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence.

The good news for somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is this: 1) It is that ‘I’m not stuck with it forever.’ It’s just now. Admittedly, for each one of us, it’s hard to look beyond the ‘now’ sometimes. But nonetheless, if you see mortality as now, it’s only during this season. 2) If I can keep myself worthy here, if I can be true to gospel commandments, if I can keep covenants that I have made, the blessings of exaltation and eternal life that Heavenly Father holds out to all of His children apply to me. Every blessing — including eternal marriage — is and will be mine in due course.

Elphaba

Edit: I just realized the link did not work, and I've corrected it. E.

[bytor2112]

Many ask why God would cause men to have these tendancies, and answer similarly to Mahonri's answer, which may be correct, but only address the lesser half of the issue. I would like to ask why God would not provide the ability to follow the marriage commandment, if it really is universal. It is like giving Adam and Eve only the first commandment (don't partake of the fruit), while leaving out the second (multiply and replenish). I hope that this issue is not fully revealed or understood yet, and that it may be, in time.

The obvious answer is that HE has provided the way....they can marry someone of the opposite sex and through faith endure the same sex attraction. A couple of scriptures come to mind:

From Third Nephi:

29 Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that ye suffer none of these things to enter into your heart;

30 For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your cross, than that ye should be cast into hell.

The Saviour is referencing adultery....but it can be applied to most all sins that we struggle or are tempted by.

From Ether:

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Edited November 9, 2010 by bytor2112

[seeking_peace]

The obvious answer is that HE has provided the way....they can marry someone of the opposite sex and through faith overcome the same sex attraction. A couple of scriptures come to mind:

/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if you are suggesting that if a gay person marries someone of the opposite sex that they will overcome their attraction to the same sex.

That will only bring frustration, pain and heartache. What do you think happens to the wife and kids 25 years down the road when the husband/father decides that he is tired of living a lie? I've seen the devestation that brings. Although I feel sympathy for the man that tried to "do the right thing," it would have been much better if he hadn't tried to hide who he was in the first place. The pain that he caused his wife and children is almost unbearable to them.

[bytor2112]

The obvious answer is that HE has provided the way....they can marry someone of the opposite sex and through faith overcome the same sex attraction. A couple of scriptures come to mind:

/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if you are suggesting that if a gay person marries someone of the opposite sex that they will overcome their attraction to the same sex.

That will only bring frustration, pain and heartache. What do you think happens to the wife and kids 25 years down the road when the husband/father decides that he is tired of living a lie? I've seen the devestation that brings. Although I feel sympathy for the man that tried to "do the right thing," it would have been much better if he hadn't tried to hide who he was in the first place. The pain that he caused his wife and children is almost unbearable to them.

No....I am stating that through faith they can endure these desires and they will no longer control there lives and a hetero man might decide that he has been living a lie and leave his wife after 25 years as well....

As for who someone is....who is it that you think they are? We are after all Eternal Beings and if same sex attraction didn't exist in our pre-mortal existence then OBVIOUSLY that,,,,being gay....isn't who they really are.

Edited November 9, 2010 by bytor2112

[seeking_peace]

The obvious answer is that HE has provided the way....they can marry someone of the opposite sex and through faith overcome the same sex attraction.

:

I'm not sure if you are suggesting that a gay person should marry someone of the opposite sex so that they will overcome their attraction to the same sex.

That will only bring frustration, pain and heartache.

What do you think happens to the wife and kids 25 years down the road when the husband/father decides that he is tired of living a lie? I've seen the devestation that brings. Although I feel sympathy for the man that tried to "do the right thing," it would have been much better if he hadn't tried to hide who he was in the first place. The pain that he caused his wife and children is almost unbearable to them.

[nochederabanos]

Here you go: Same Gender Attraction

From the interview:

ELDER WICKMAN: One question that might be asked by somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is, “Is this something I’m stuck with forever? What bearing does this have on eternal life? If I can somehow make it through this life, when I appear on the other side, what will I be like?”

Gratefully, the answer is that same-gender attraction did not exist in the pre-earth life and neither will it exist in the next life. It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence.

The good news for somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is this: 1) It is that ‘I’m not stuck with it forever.’ It’s just now. Admittedly, for each one of us, it’s hard to look beyond the ‘now’ sometimes. But nonetheless, if you see mortality as now, it’s only during this season. 2) If I can keep myself worthy here, if I can be true to gospel commandments, if I can keep covenants that I have made, the blessings of exaltation and eternal life that Heavenly Father holds out to all of His children apply to me. Every blessing — including eternal marriage — is and will be mine in due course.

Elphaba

Edit: I just realized the link did not work, and I've corrected it. E.

I wonder how what Elder Wickman says relates to the seemingly contradictory doctrine revealed in Alma:

Alma 34: 34

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

Unless the scripture in Alma relates to desires rather than tendencies, but I've never read it that way. I don't know of any revealed doctrine (i.e. canon of scripture) that would support the notion that homosexual (or other) tendencies would not be carried on in the post-mortal existence. That would seem to allow for all of us to give in to our hedonist tendencies today, and live our righteous spiritual lives in the post mortal existence when it is easier. It doesn't appear to be consistent.

[Dravin]

That would seem to allow for all of us to give in to our hedonist tendencies today, and live our righteous spiritual lives in the post mortal existence when it is easier.

Elder Wickman nor Elder Oaks (who is also present at the interview) are advocating sinning it up because the consequences of our developed habits (and the sins themselves) will be of no effect. As far as the same spirit possessing, it depends on what you consider to be a function of the spirit and a function of the body. Will someone with Trisomy 21 suffer from the same lack of mental acuity in the next life? Likewise will someone suffering from schizophrenia in the next life suffer from the same? Someone afflicted with homosexuality could still leave that behind while carrying the attitudes and habits they have developed in this life whether it be pursuing pleasure over God or visa versa. This last part is why its so important as a homosexual not to just give in, even if those desires will be removed/changed, the habits of perusing your will over God's are the kind of things Alma is talking about. The process of dying will not magically transformed from someone who hates God and loves sin to someone who loves God and hates sin.

Remember as per the Church simply having same gender attractions is not a sin, it is not something to be repented of in the next life in the manner the scripture is talking about though it sounds like something to be changed in some manner.

At least that's how I don't see any conflict. You'll have to ask Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman themselves for what their reasoning on the matter is.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Dravin

[nochederabanos]

Elder Wickman nor Elder Oaks (who is also present at the interview) are advocating sinning it up because the consequences of our developed habits (and the sins themselves) will be of no effect. As far as the same spirit possessing, it depends on what you consider to be a function of the spirit and a function of the body. Will someone with Trisomy 21 suffer from the same lack of mental acuity in the next life? Likewise will someone suffering from schizophrenia in the next life suffer from the same? Someone afflicted with homosexuality could still leave that behind while carrying the attitudes and habits they have developed in this life whether it be pursuing pleasure over God or visa versa. This last part is why its so important as a homosexual not to just give in, even if those desires will be removed/changed, the habits of perusing your will over God's are the kind of things Alma is talking about. The process of dying will not magically transformed from someone who hates God and loves sin to someone who loves God and hates sin.

Remember as per the Church simply having same gender attractions is not a sin, it is not something to be repented of in the next life in the manner the scripture is talking about though it sounds like something to be changed in some manner.

At least that's how I don't see any conflict. You'll have to ask Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman themselves for what their reasoning on the matter is.

OK, I can maybe buy that interpretation theologically. In practical terms, I guess I don't know since I don't have significant homosexual tendencies, so I would look for input from others who may be following this thread. The answer still seems to get complicated quickly; sexual tendencies in heterosexual marriage, by revelation, enable stronger spiritual connection and personal well-being, and are God-given, whereas enacting the same desires in others who are, by no fault of their own, biologically different, is all of a sudden a sin.

Keep in mind that I'm trying to focus my understanding not on the denial side, which has other corollaries with other in-born tendencies, or "crosses to bear", but on the complete (apparent) impossibility of completing the positive action, i.e. that of marrying a person of the opposite sex, procreating, and having a fulfilling family life. I don't see any corollaries for that, so far.

And as far as asking Elder Wickman or Oakes their clarification, according to the letter read over the pulpit on Sunday, I'm not allowed to...:)

[Mahonri]

anecdote: I recently attended the performance of a young man in our ward in a circle in the round theatre presentation.

The two young men taking tickets were obviously "homosexuals"... their countenance doth bear witness... you get the drift. So I looked at their hands. both had 2nd digits longer than 4th digits. I know it's weird, I'm looking at everyone's hands now.

All of my family members have fourth digits longer than 2nd digits.

As Billy Crystal used to say on SNL, "We love a the women"

[Traveler]

One of the truths I have learned about life is that in reality we are not all created equal. From a religious stand point this particular concept has had consequences and repercussions as we deal with love and compassion of others, ourselves and G-d. Basic to LDS doctrine and teachings is not only the divine origin of us all but the divine destiny of man despite our current fallen state.

There are situations that exist among individuals that are difficult to understand and explain in light of gospel principles. Many of these difficult conditions are labeled as disorders and given names like bipolar, obsessive compulsive, autism, attention deficit and others. I have been curious for some time to observe how individuals, families, church societies and society in general deals with such issues.

Of great interest to me is how Jesus dealt with various individuals that had no hope to “escape” their predicament. Two things I believe – Jesus was able to “heal” and make “whole” every individual that sought his help and in many cases there was no other alternative. The second thing I believe is that it is rare for such miracles to take place in our day.

I have known a number of individuals with “spiritual” disorders, some such disorders I mentioned above. We can also include various addictions to this discussion. Rarely have I met someone “cured” of such things. I know many people that have adjusted somewhat. Some require medication for their “adjustments”. I have never met any individuals struggling with such things that are helped by the notion that their life would be enriched by ending the struggle and enjoying and embracing their compulsions.

I understand when someone is suffering from a death of a loved one that by showing concern and assuring them that they will be with the loved one someday but for this life we need to move on. I understand this kind of support. I do not understand how to support a bipolar relative that frequently goes off their medication and says and does harmful things to children – even adults and even myself. I do not know how to support someone I care about doing things I cannot tolerate. For me it is not just homosexuality but homosexuals are definitely one of those conditions that concern me.

The Traveler

[bytor2112]

anecdote: I recently attended the performance of a young man in our ward in a circle in the round theatre presentation.

The two young men taking tickets were obviously "homosexuals"... their countenance doth bear witness... you get the drift. So I looked at their hands. both had 2nd digits longer than 4th digits. I know it's weird, I'm looking at everyone's hands now.

All of my family members have fourth digits longer than 2nd digits.

As Billy Crystal used to say on SNL, "We love a the women"

Which digit is the fourth....pinky?

[bytor2112]

Remember as per the Church simply having same gender attractions is not a sin, it is not something to be repented of in the next life in the manner the scripture is talking about though it sounds like something to be changed in some manner.

What about not trying to endure these desires? Is that a sin? Just curious. Also, I sometimes think that people self describe themselves as homosexual or are convinced that they are because society has made it seem that is the answer to their confusion. In fact, many aren't homosexual....yet act out in that way and later abandon these practices.

Edited November 9, 2010 by bytor2112

[GaySaint]

Bytor: Can I ask one thing of you? Instead of saying that same-sex attraction can be “overcome” by faith, can you change “overcome” to “endure?”

The reason is that when people with same-sex attraction hear this, it immediately leads to the conclusion that if someone doesn’t “overcome” their same-sex attraction, it must mean they LACK faith – which leads to discouragement, disappointment, and despair (and is highly untrue).

I think there are many in the church, including leaders, who are leaning toward the understanding that same-sex attraction rarely if ever is “overcome” in this life. I don’t disagree that it can be endured with faith, and I think that saying someone can endure in faith is much more realistic.

Unless by “overcome” you mean “still struggle with but control sufficiently” – but even if so, endure seems to be a better word for the intended meaning.

[bytor2112]

Bytor: Can I ask one thing of you? Instead of saying that same-sex attraction can be “overcome” by faith, can you change “overcome” to “endure?”

The reason is that when people with same-sex attraction hear this, it immediately leads to the conclusion that if someone doesn’t “overcome” their same-sex attraction, it must mean they LACK faith – which leads to discouragement, disappointment, and despair (and is highly untrue).

I think there are many in the church, including leaders, who are leaning toward the understanding that same-sex attraction rarely if ever is “overcome” in this life. I don’t disagree that it can be endured with faith, and I think that saying someone can endure in faith is much more realistic.

Unless by “overcome” you mean “still struggle with but control sufficiently” – but even if so, endure seems to be a better word for the intended meaning.

I do mean "still struggle with but sufficiently control" and will be happy to use endure instead.....and have edited my posts.

Edited November 9, 2010 by bytor2112