dorave Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 You arent saying all african music is "paganistic" or evil are you?I hope notoh no, who reported me to the PC mods? in my defence all im going to say here, is leave this quote "it wasn't me - Shaggy" Quote
dorave Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 I am very sorry but I find this statement offensive on a number of levels. 1. Using "African" in a pejorative way is not cool and not within the spirit. 2. There are many forms of electronica with many interpretations and intentions. 3. It's totally OK to disagree with pagan beliefs, philosophies, and practices. It is not OK to lump an entire group of religions together that are only joined by the idea of a polytheistic godhead. It is also not OK to use a group of religions you disagree with as a synonym for evil. There are a wide range of strongly held beliefs and ethical precepts held within the various pagan communities and it is better to create on open and positive dialogue than to just cast that whole group aside as rubbish. 4. Voodoo is also a set of beliefs and practices that I disagree with but think should be respected in an open dialogue. There is a very complex system of beliefs, rituals, and ethical precepts is voodoo and it is better not to deride an entire belief system as a nonsense word. Sorry again for being all harsh and serious but the casual demonetization of those who are different is a large factor in pushing many away from listening to the word of God with an open mind.1 How else am I to refer to Afirca ? 2 Many forms that are deviations from the same original source.3 Is it ok to have an opinion?4 I never said voodoo is nonsense i understand it to be anything but....dont be sorry, i appreciate the honesty, but how does discussing the origins of modern music push away anyone from the word of god. thats a curve ball if i ever saw one Quote
Wingnut Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 oh no, who reported me to the PC mods? in my defence all im going to say here, is leave this quote "it wasn't me - Shaggy"For someone who is so much holier than everyone else here, you sure picked a bad song to reference in your defense. Quote
PrinceofLight2000 Posted October 17, 2010 Author Report Posted October 17, 2010 (edited) 1 How else am I to refer to Afirca ? 2 Many forms that are deviations from the same original source.3 Is it ok to have an opinion?4 I never said voodoo is nonsense i understand it to be anything but....dont be sorry, i appreciate the honesty, but how does discussing the origins of modern music push away anyone from the word of god. thats a curve ball if i ever saw one1. This is incredibly ignorant and bigoted.2. You clearly are not familiar with the genre. Stop generalizing.3. Our church teaches that all faiths have a portion of truth. Your opinion is wrong, and once again bigoted.4. Not what your post indicated earlier. Choose better wording if this is the case. Edited October 17, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000 Quote
dorave Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 1. This is incredibly ignorant and bigoted.2. You clearly are not familiar with the genre. Stop generalizing.3. Our church teaches that all faiths have a portion of truth. Your opinion is wrong, and once again bigoted.4. Not what your post indicated earlier. Choose better wording if his is the case.Oh pluleeze spare me the holy man 'you bigot' rebuttle . You need to sckool yourself homie The Roots of Hip HopMy comments come from sumone who grewup with 1980s hiphop, 1980s electro to Gfunk era, to Boom bap NY style, the whole 4 elements, bboyin, emceein, djin, graf.. to raggamuffin, reggeaton, calypso, to big beat UK grime to dub-step, to transitional electronica Quote
dorave Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 For someone who is so much holier than everyone else here, you sure picked a bad song to reference in your defense.oh put it down to my ingenious way of making my point.funny how you knew it to be a bad song tho eh? Quote
PrinceofLight2000 Posted October 17, 2010 Author Report Posted October 17, 2010 (edited) Oh pluleeze spare me the holy man 'you bigot' rebuttle . You need to sckool yourself homie The Roots of Hip HopMy comments come from sumone who grewup with 1980s hiphop, 1980s electro to Gfunk era, to Boom bap NY style, the whole 4 elements, bboyin, emceein, djin, graf.. to raggamuffin, reggeaton, calypso, to big beat UK grime to dub-step, to transitional electronicaAlright...She said this: 1. Using "African" in a pejorative way is not cool and not within the spirit. You said this: 1 How else am I to refer to Afirca ? You're sounding pretty bigoted, bub.It's rather ironic that you spelled school wrong.Hip-hop and electronica may have similar rhythmic traits but electronica isn't nearly as polluted with obscene garbage as modern hip-hop is. The idea that you're trying to compare subject similarity based simply on a similarly shared musical root is absurd. Additionally, there is good and bad to be found in every genre of music, so again, quit generalizing.Lastly, the problem isn't so much with how a message is delivered in music, it's what the message actually is. We are cautioned against music with strong rhythm because it can make us remember a message extremely easily and effectively, good or bad. If you want to argue the difference between "be careful" and "avoid at all cost", I point you here. Edited October 17, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000 Quote
dorave Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 3. Our church teaches that all faiths have a portion of truth. Your opinion is wrong, and once again bigoted.I understand the church's stance, and Im not disrespecting anything... but in regards to what you have said -- how bout Satanist? they have a portion of truth too, doesnt change the fact they are wrong on many things and pointing it out. Quote
Wingnut Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 funny how you knew it to be a bad song tho eh?Yes, but I'm not the one trying to be more righteous or pious. I'm the one who doesn't have a problem listening to Lady Gaga's music. Quote
dorave Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Alright...She said this: 1. Using "African" in a pejorative way is not cool and not within the spirit. You said this: 1 How else am I to refer to Afirca ? You're pretty bigoted, bub.It's rather ironic that you spelled school wrong.Hip-hop and electronica may have similar rhythmic traits but electronica isn't nearly as polluted with obscene garbage as modern hip-hop is. The idea that you're trying to compare subject similarity based simply on a similarly shared musical root is absurd. Additionally, there is good and bad to be found in every genre of music, so again, quit generalizing.Lastly, the problem isn't so much with how a message is delivered in music, it's what the message actually is. We are cautioned against music with strong rhythm because it can make us remember a message extremely easily and effectively, good or bad. If you want to argue the difference between "be careful" and "avoid at all cost", I point you here.Do you even know how electronica began? I cannot expect you to understand anything I say n converse over it reasonably until you go do your homework young man. Quote
PrinceofLight2000 Posted October 17, 2010 Author Report Posted October 17, 2010 (edited) Do you even know how electronica began? I cannot expect you to understand anything I say n converse over it reasonably until you go do your homework young man.Read what I wrote.Hip-hop and electronica may have similar rhythmic traits but electronica isn't nearly as polluted with obscene garbage as modern hip-hop is. The idea that you're trying to compare subject similarity based simply on a similarly shared musical root is absurd. Additionally, there is good and bad to be found in every genre of music, so again, quit generalizing. Edited October 17, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000 Quote
dorave Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 (edited) Read what I wrote.I read it. Voodou involved a technique of a repeitive rhythmic beat for ritualistic worship, that beat is what carried over into the modern world. its intention to use that beat kick today may not be the same in its original religious sense or purpose but its fruits are nonetheless identical as being club music (fertility, dousing of senses, submissiveness to worship) or directly with the new age, theosophy or mysticism to meditate/healingOh n btw, what type of electronica are you referring to?And which em songs are you recommending? Edited October 17, 2010 by dorave Quote
PrinceofLight2000 Posted October 17, 2010 Author Report Posted October 17, 2010 I read it. Voodou involved a technique of a rhythmic beat for ritualistic worship, that beat is what carried over into the modern world. its intention to use that beat kick today may not be the same as its religious sense but its fruits are nonetheless identical as being club music or new age, theosophy or mysticism to meditate/healingOh n btw, what type of electronica are you referring to?And which em songs are you recommending?You're kidding me. Intentions and messages present in the song DEFINE what the fruit of the rhythm will be. Just because a style of music was used long ago for occult purposes doesn't mean that the music is inherently evil or seductive. You fail to realize that people's intentions have changed along with history's changes.Trance. Melodic trance, to be more specific.Example here: Psybot - Heaven Cries Quote
dorave Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 You're kidding me. Intentions and messages present in the song DEFINE what the fruit of the rhythm will be. Just because a style of music was used long ago for occult purposes doesn't mean that the music is inherently evil or seductive. You fail to realize that people's intentions have changed along with history's changes.Trance. Melodic trance, to be more specific.Example here: Psybot - Heaven CriesYou are in denial bro, admit it. I know the scene long enough now to know whats up, I was once naive like yourself -- until I finally realized what time it was. Quote
PrinceofLight2000 Posted October 17, 2010 Author Report Posted October 17, 2010 You are in denial bro, admit it. I know the scene long enough to whats up, I was once naive like yourself -- until I finally realized what time it was.lol, until you can give me some kind of substantive argument to convince me I'm in denial that doesn't consist of sophistry, I'm not gonna buy it. Quote
pam Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Okay either this goes back to a civil conversation, or I close it. Quote
TheActualLiz Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Dorave, Thank you for the useful and informative link. I am still buried deep in you-tube videos trying to further educate myself on the origins of rap becoming a contemporary art form. So far I am quite impressed by the work of Grand Master Flash in creating an art form that has provided enjoyment to millions and introduced millions to a fabulous form of therapeutic self reflective writing and performing. If you would like we could try to go even further into the genealogy of music.... how about starting here. Electronic music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaElectronic dance music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaor any of the sub-genera of electronic dance musicList of electronic music genres - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaPersonally I like happy hardcore best of the sub-types listed but I can see the serious argument for various jungle and drum and bass styles as being significantly more intelligent (definitely more complex). All of this seems relevant to the discussion since the majority of rap seems to have some form of electronic mix behind it and while this does in no way mean that all electronic music has its roots in the hip hop or rap scene (techno classical being a great example) it is important to go back to the beats if we are going to discuss the various levels of talent in the "finished" product. I use quotations for finished because all of this is dependent on the continued availability of open source media as it's life blood and all things open source have questionable beginnings and no definable end. So, back to the issue of meaning and talent in rap music. By what criteria should rap be judged and compared? Should the greater emphasis be on the technical or romantic elements of the poetry? How much value do you give to variance of tempo both in the human voice as an instrument and the beats that make them more memorable? How much value do you give to the "hook" or do you think it is a necessary element in a high quality rap? How do you value alliteration vs rhyme scheme? To you think the accessibility of the piece has intrinsic merit and should it be added to the total value of the piece? How much value do you give to the instrumental or electronic elements? Are they actually necessary as a way of defining rap from spoken word or are they another aspect of this complicated equation that should be factored in? If this is factored in, should the DJ be considered independently of the MC or should they be considered in context of one another.... especially given the fact that much of the DJ's merit seems to be in recognizing and mixing and matching seemingly conflicting elements to create a unified work? I would be happy to hear your opinions as I am confident that you are much more knowledgeable about this topic than me. Best regards, Liz Quote
TheActualLiz Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Wow! I guess a lot can happen while I am typing!Prince of Light, Nice link with Psybot.... what's your opinion on Pacifica from the Ultramax concert? Pam, Thanks for the reminder.... I will try to be civil. :) Quote
TheActualLiz Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Stumbled on this one.... just too pretty to not share it. :) Quote
captmoroniRM Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Modern day hiphop is rubbish. Lady Gaga belongs in the gutter.Surprisingly, if you take away all the electronic additives and the goofy get-ups, Lady Gaga actually has a really good voice. Sad how people with her talent would rather sell themselves out then try and make it on their own talent. Here's a video of her "pre-gaga" days Quote
TheActualLiz Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Nice find captmoroniRM! So far I have stood on the sidelines of the Gaga issue on this thread because.... well... it's complicated. Without all the performance art aspects she now employs she would not have been very likely to amass the capital and fan base to actually create the change she sings about in the second of those lovely songs. The argument over what one is willing to compromise or sacrifice in the pursuit of the means to achieve a goal is an old one that has never been resolved (at least for some people). In this case she realized that she had additional assets that she could capitalize on and has recently started to leverage that capital to further both the charitable and the political causes she believes in. Regardless of what our opinions are about her personal causes it is clear that she is using her given resources to change the world in a way that she thinks is correct. Quote
Melissa569 Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 I personally don't care for (most) rap. There have been a few songs that I kind of liked, but most are just and bunch of cussing, and promoting how wonderful and honroable it is to lead a life of crime. I know that sounds like something a goody-goody would say, but that really is how I feel. Quote
Wingnut Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 Surprisingly, if you take away all the electronic additives and the goofy get-ups, Lady Gaga actually has a really good voice. Sad how people with her talent would rather sell themselves out then try and make it on their own talent. Here's a video of her "pre-gaga" days Nice find! Thanks for that link! I've always (since she came out) enjoyed her voice, despite the histrionics. I also respect her as an artist, because she doesn't just sing other people's songs. I don't know if she composes music -- I think she does -- but I know she write most of her own lyrics.I personally don't care for (most) rap. There have been a few songs that I kind of liked, but most are just and bunch of cussing, and promoting how wonderful and honroable it is to lead a life of crime. I know that sounds like something a goody-goody would say, but that really is how I feel.That's "west coast" rap. "East coast" rap is all about how much money they have, and how many women they can get. Great alternative, right? Quote
dorave Posted October 17, 2010 Report Posted October 17, 2010 (edited) Dorave, Thank you for the useful and informative link. I am still buried deep in you-tube videos trying to further educate myself on the origins of rap becoming a contemporary art form. So far I am quite impressed by the work of Grand Master Flash in creating an art form that has provided enjoyment to millions and introduced millions to a fabulous form of therapeutic self reflective writing and performing. If you would like we could try to go even further into the genealogy of music.... how about starting here. Electronic music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaElectronic dance music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaor any of the sub-genera of electronic dance musicList of electronic music genres - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaPersonally I like happy hardcore best of the sub-types listed but I can see the serious argument for various jungle and drum and bass styles as being significantly more intelligent (definitely more complex). All of this seems relevant to the discussion since the majority of rap seems to have some form of electronic mix behind it and while this does in no way mean that all electronic music has its roots in the hip hop or rap scene (techno classical being a great example) it is important to go back to the beats if we are going to discuss the various levels of talent in the "finished" product. I use quotations for finished because all of this is dependent on the continued availability of open source media as it's life blood and all things open source have questionable beginnings and no definable end. So, back to the issue of meaning and talent in rap music. By what criteria should rap be judged and compared? Should the greater emphasis be on the technical or romantic elements of the poetry? How much value do you give to variance of tempo both in the human voice as an instrument and the beats that make them more memorable? How much value do you give to the "hook" or do you think it is a necessary element in a high quality rap? How do you value alliteration vs rhyme scheme? To you think the accessibility of the piece has intrinsic merit and should it be added to the total value of the piece? How much value do you give to the instrumental or electronic elements? Are they actually necessary as a way of defining rap from spoken word or are they another aspect of this complicated equation that should be factored in? If this is factored in, should the DJ be considered independently of the MC or should they be considered in context of one another.... especially given the fact that much of the DJ's merit seems to be in recognizing and mixing and matching seemingly conflicting elements to create a unified work? I would be happy to hear your opinions as I am confident that you are much more knowledgeable about this topic than me. Best regards, LizI've always opposed defining hiphop, or trying to, as it was a convergent evolutionary group of elements organically coming together and being what anyone wanted it to be. Becoming an unrestricted vehicle of expression for those that felt oppressed had no or limited means to express themselves in a positive fashion. Kool Herc, Afrika Bambaataa, Grandmaster Flash, Sugarhill Gang n all the originators just created what they felt like creating, using stuff they enjoyed disco/funk and making it their own, taking it a step further. This enabled Kids that couldn't sing, who could now rap. Those that couldn't afford expensive instruments, the possibility of making their own music by manipulating the family record player, sampling other artists recorded material, cutting it n scratching it up to make it there own, getting the beat timed on the break. Kids that couldn't use canvas to paint used trains. You didn't need to go dancing class to do the moves you just created your own, same goes with rapping - you just expressed what you felt, warts n all, your limitations that would not be accepted in other artforms made your output in hiphop much more enhanced, accent, delivery, high/low voice tones slangs, incorrect grammer, foreign language was embraced not rejected. And people were compelled to it regardless of its technical flaws because they could relate to it, the higher tempos opened the door for versitilaty with a more ranged possibility of musical output than most genres, where you could create from 70bpm - 140bpm. One did not feel distanced like you would find in other artforms or musical genres, due to all these factors and combined with its accessibility, it became a representation of you and people like you -- this was especially apaealing to those living in the lower ends of society. I don't think hiphop at it's core back in the late 70s is anything near the structured artform it is today. With all the ghostwriting, contractual oversight, hiring of external musical producers and artistry restriction nowadays I cant even say it is art, pop art sure.... but whats pop art worth these days? a worthless download? There is was no gatekeeper to say whats hiphop or what isnt, there is just your own personal compass that could identify and dig it. By what criteria should rap be judged?I say, whatever you can honestly claim that - 'that was fresh..' to, meaning innovation or 'that was dope' meaning honest intent. Judge an artist or rap on it's merit to be both honest, or to/and push boundries, both musically and intellectually.Grandmaster Dorave has spoken. Edited October 17, 2010 by dorave Quote
PrinceofLight2000 Posted October 17, 2010 Author Report Posted October 17, 2010 Wow! I guess a lot can happen while I am typing!Prince of Light, Nice link with Psybot.... what's your opinion on Pacifica from the Ultramax concert? Pam, Thanks for the reminder.... I will try to be civil. :)I like it a lot! Thanks for the rec. Here's a more classical-based one.{Blaze}Here's my latest favorite, too:YouTube - Capsule - Starry SkySurprisingly, if you take away all the electronic additives and the goofy get-ups, Lady Gaga actually has a really good voice. Sad how people with her talent would rather sell themselves out then try and make it on their own talent. Here's a video of her "pre-gaga" days Yup, she's a sellout. Quote
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