I have a question and I hope you don't take offense

[yorkiebeebs]

Do you have a standard or set of beliefs that are constant that are not subject to change that you can measure what the prophet or the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles teaches you? Or do you follow whatever they say?

Do you use your conscience, the Bible, the Book of Mormon to measure what new teaching might come along?

I've never heard of this happening but what if your prophet became impaired in his thinking and started requiring things that you are uncomfortable about.

Just wondering and hope you don't think I'm crazy.

[HiJolly]

Do you have a standard or set of beliefs that are constant that are not subject to change that you can measure what the prophet or the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles teaches you? Or do you follow whatever they say?

Yes, I do. I follow truth, wherever it comes from and wherever it leads me. In the temple our first covenant is to obey God. To me, this means the Holy Ghost comes before prophets, Stake presidents and bishops. This must be tempered or we have the danger of going off the deep end; so I have mechanisms in place to avoid wigging out completely.

When we study the words of the prophets & apostles over time, (see The Journal of Discourses ) we find that sometimes mistakes are made, sometimes opinion passes for inspiration, and occasionally flat-out false doctrine is presented to us. The temple teachings also help us out with that sort of thing, though I won't be sharing that methodology (I have mentioned it in passing in previous posts, though).

Do you use your conscience, the Bible, the Book of Mormon to measure what new teaching might come along?

Yes.

I've never heard of this happening but what if your prophet became impaired in his thinking and started requiring things that you are uncomfortable about.

It would cause a problem. Surely it would. The 'fundamentalist' LDS would really have a problem; would *cause* a problem. Too many people just want to follow & never really think for themselves. It is sad, but every organization seems to have these sorts of members.

Just wondering and hope you don't think I'm crazy.

Not a problem. Religion is inherently non-rational (as is the human mind itself - no coincidence!), so these things do come up.

HiJolly

[jennvan]

I think most LDS people would consider the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants to be the standard. But most of us consider the Prophet to be the final word. Many of us have a testimony that the Prophet will never be led astray.

[Traveler]

The oath and covenant of the priesthood binds all things in Christ. It is through Christ that prophets are appointed. However, like every other person that lives, prophets are not without faults. Through the covenants one will not be held accountable for being obedient to the L-rd's appointed servants that do error. Therefore one cannot ever be led astray following the prophets. This is only true in the L-rd’s kingdom.

However, it is possible through love to take responsibility upon one's self if a prophet has errored but this is not done to prove the L-rd's appointed servants wrong or in error nor is such a thing done to end their calling or end our sustaining of them in their calling. But it is done according to the oath and covenant of the priesthood through the priesthood councils provided in the L-rd’s kingdom (church) the same today as it was anciently.

The Traveler

[PeaceRoseRest]

To begin with, it must be remembered that this is the Lord's church. It doesn't belong to the prophet or apostles.

The Lord will never allow the prophet to lead the church astray. If it should ever happen that any prophet or apostle ever began teaching things that were opposed to the Lord's doctrine, the Lord would immediately remove that person out of that position.

As far as our own obedience is concerned, we all have our agency. This means we all have the right and privilege of chosing for ourselves what we will do here upon this earth. Obedience to the commandments of the Lord always brings blessings, but the Lord will never force anyone.

Blind obedience is never recommended. Joseph Smith taught that it is impossible for a person to be saved in ignorance. This is why it's so important for members of the church to read the scriptures for themselves, ask questions (just as you're doing now), and pray over things. We're encouraged to develop our own relationship with the Lord. We must know for ourselves whether or not the doctrines are true because when adversity comes, a sure testimony (a sure knowledge of the truth) is the only thing that will see us through the challenge.

There's a reason the Lord puts such a strong emphasis on obedience to the Law. It's because the whole universe (His kingdom) is governed by law. We've been promised that, in the end, those who have been obedient to the Lord's commandments will inherit the Kingdom of God. It's a matter of trust. God cannot place his kingdom into the hands of those who would abuse it. Being obedient to God's laws puts us in harmony with the entire universe. Obedience now prepares us to inherit that kingdom one day and to become co-creators in the universe with God himself.

You are the only one who can determine whether or not inheriting God's kingdom would be worth the sacrifice. Think on these things and pray about them for yourself. Whatever you decide to do in this life or with this life you've been given, it must be your choice.

PRR

[FunkyTown]

I've never heard of this happening but what if your prophet became impaired in his thinking and started requiring things that you are uncomfortable about.

Just wondering and hope you don't think I'm crazy.

You mean... What if the Prophet went crazy and told us to start building boats?

Me, I'd start building a boat.

Or are you asking about something else? I'd need specifics. Basically: The scriptures teach us the prophets aren't perfect. They will make mistakes.

That having been said, I trust the prophet a whole lot more than I trust my own wisdom. If I was asked to do something against my conscience, then it would be a different story. If I was asked to do something strange and didn't know why, I would do it.

[PeaceRoseRest]

To begin with, it must be remembered that this is the Lord's church. It doesn't belong to the prophet or apostles. Christ is the standard we are encouraged to measure all else by.

The Lord will never allow the prophet to lead the church astray. If it should ever happen that any prophet or apostle ever began teaching things that were opposed to the Lord's doctrine, the Lord would immediately remove that person out of that position.

As far as our own obedience is concerned, we all have our agency. This means we all have the right and privilege of chosing for ourselves what we will do here upon this earth. Obedience to the commandments of the Lord always brings blessings, but the Lord will never force anyone.

Blind obedience is never recommended. Joseph Smith taught that it is impossible for a person to be saved in ignorance. This is why it's so important for members of the church to read the scriptures for themselves, ask questions (just as you're doing now), and pray over things. We're encouraged to develop our own relationship with the Lord. We must know for ourselves whether or not the doctrines are true because when adversity comes, a sure testimony (a sure knowledge of the truth) is the only thing that will see us through the challenge.

There's a reason the Lord puts such a strong emphasis on obedience to the Law. It's because the whole universe (His kingdom) is governed by law. We've been promised that, in the end, those who have been obedient to the Lord's commandments will inherit the Kingdom of God. It's a matter of trust. God cannot place his kingdom into the hands of those who would abuse it. Being obedient to God's laws puts us in harmony with the entire universe. Obedience now prepares us to inherit that kingdom one day and to become co-creators in the universe with God himself.

You are the only one who can determine whether or not inheriting God's kingdom would be worth the sacrifice. Think on these things and pray about them for yourself. Whatever you decide to do in this life or with this life you've been given, it must be your choice.

PRR

[rameumptom]

Do you have a standard or set of beliefs that are constant that are not subject to change that you can measure what the prophet or the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles teaches you? Or do you follow whatever they say?

Do you use your conscience, the Bible, the Book of Mormon to measure what new teaching might come along?

I've never heard of this happening but what if your prophet became impaired in his thinking and started requiring things that you are uncomfortable about.

Just wondering and hope you don't think I'm crazy.

We have Doctrines and Principles that never change. For example, the beliefs that God lives, Jesus is the Christ, we are saved through Jesus' atonement, are doctrines that will never change. Faith in Christ and repentance are principles that will never change.

We do receive rules, guidelines and teachings that mostly based upon the foundational doctrines and principles, and these are the things most likely to change over time. For example, the ancient Jews had a dietary rule under the Mosaic Law. This was ended by the early Christian apostles. However, in our day, modern prophets have implemented a new rule that was inspired by God (see D&C 89). This too, is subject to change, as recent prophets have included harmful drugs and abuse of prescription drugs onto the list of Word of Wisdom issues.

Each of us is expected to gain our own testimony of new teachings through prayer, meditation, scriptures study, and personal inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

The prophet works as part of a presidency, and prior to publishing his pronouncements to the world, it is passed through the Quorum of 12 Apostles for a sustaining. This helps protect us from any incidental or serious event that could potentially occur through an addled prophet. When Pres Kimball became seriously ill in the early 1980s, his counselors pretty much ran things, discussing issues with the prophet when he was conscious enough to understand and discuss things with them. All of these went through the 12 Apostles for confirmation, prior to being implemented.

[NeuroTypical]

I love this subject, and here are a few of my favorite quotes about it:

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150

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Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. We are the sons and daughters of God, willing followers, disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, and "under this head are [we] made free." (Mosiah 5: 8 )

Those who talk of blind obedience may appear to know many things, but they do not understand the doctrines of the gospel. There is an obedience that comes from a knowledge of the truth that transcends any external form of control. We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see.

Boyd K. Packer, "Agency and Control," Ensign, May 1983, 66

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Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know[ing] that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil

Josehp F. Smith, Collected Discourses, ed. Brian H. Stuy, Vol. 3 (Burbank, B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992)

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It is a mistaken idea, prevalent in the world, that the perpetuity of this work depends upon the authorities keeping the masses of the people in ignorance. The truth is the direct reverse, else why have we all these auxiliary organizations and quorums of priesthood in the church, for the education of the rising generation. Their being established in the faith depends upon their knowledge of the Gospel. Our greatest fear concerning our children in Zion is the possibility of their growing up in ignorance of the everlasting Gospel...As a matter of intelligent obedience--not blind obedience--we should observe to keep the word of wisdom. For the same reason we should observe to keep holy the Sabbath day, and the name of our Father in Heaven, and His Son Jesus Christ, and intelligently yield obedience to every requirement that is made at our hands

George F. Richards, Conference Report, April 1907, Afternoon Session, 15-17

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If you feel you are a special case, so that the strong counsel I have given doesn’t apply to you, please don’t write me a letter. Why would I make this request? I have learned that the kind of direct counsel I have given results in a large number of letters from members who feel they are an exception, and they want me to confirm that the things I have said just don’t apply to them in their special circumstance.

...As a General Authority, I have the responsibility to preach general principles. When I do, I don’t try to define all the exceptions. There are exceptions to some rules...But don’t ask me to give an opinion on your exception. I only teach the general rules. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility. You must work that out individually between you and the Lord.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught this same thing in another way. When he was asked how he governed such a diverse group of Saints, he said, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.” In what I have just said, I am simply teaching correct principles and inviting each one of you to act upon these principles by governing yourself.

Brothers and sisters, I pray that the things that have been said this evening will be carried into your hearts and understood by the power of the Holy Ghost with the same intent that they have been uttered, which is to bless your lives, to give comfort to the afflicted, and to afflict the comfortable.

From "Dating vs. Hanging Out," Ensign, June 2006

[Blackmarch]

Do you have a standard or set of beliefs that are constant that are not subject to change that you can measure what the prophet or the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles teaches you? Or do you follow whatever they say?

probably the closest we have to that are the scriptures. However we try to keep our focus on God and that ultimately he has the final say now at this very second... And that will come through revelation.

Do you use your conscience, the Bible, the Book of Mormon to measure what new teaching might come along?

all the time

I've never heard of this happening but what if your prophet became impaired in his thinking and started requiring things that you are uncomfortable about.

Ultimately how and whether we follow should be up to the inspiration and witness of the Holy Ghost.

We should always go to God for a confirmation on important matters.

And we pray hard for God to move such an individual with the spirit- Which does happen, or at least from what i've heard from people who've been around older leaders that do struggle with senility that when the spirit moves upon them they make the right choice on the matter. (altho i don't recall any of the prophets right off the top of my head that have had to deal with that very much).

Just wondering and hope you don't think I'm crazy.

not at all, these are very valid questions.

when you start totally relying on the Lord in regards to something, its a little like that one scene in indiana jones jones where Indiana has to take that step of faith over the bottomless ravine without knowing there was a bridge there, and all your physical senses tell you there is nothing there.