Baptism & doubts

[dahlia]

Greetings all (gird your loins, this is gonna be long) -

Well, I have had a number of visits from the missionaries, gone to church twice, 2 lessons (sorry, I never get the name of these different classes right), and a relief society meeting. I have been reading everything like a fiend.

I attended a convert baptism - which I admit was deep. I'm used to infant baptism with just the family. Here we had music, maybe 40 or more church members, the bishop, and of course, the kids. Personally, I thought herding all the kids to the front glass to see the baptism was an accident waiting to happen, but I digress... It was quite touching to see so many members of the church show up to support this one person. It was very welcoming.

Anyway, I knew it was just a matter of time and today the missionaries said they thought I should get baptized and gave me a date. Well, we talked and I think at this point my main reason for not being baptized is that I don't think I can be a good Mormon because I still question tithing and the Resurrection. Obviously, the Resurrection is a huge issue and something that I will have to pray on. Today I told the missionaries that I know that Joseph Smith's vision is true, so who knows, maybe in another week I'll believe in the Resurrection, but tithing is a huge issue with me.

Without going into details, let's just say things have been very difficult financially for the past few years and I am only just now crawling out of those problems. I have to say that things began to improve last spring, as I was reading about the LDS church on my own, and they just keep getting better. The problem is, now that things are better, I feel I have to build up my resources. I don't have anyone else's income to depend on; I need this money for retirement. Some new furniture and clothes would not be bad, either, as these things are getting pretty old.

I'm not against giving an offering, but the tithing scares me. In church, they announced the sign up for settlement meetings with the bishop and I just got weirded out - how can someone else have control of my money? I have so much to make up for, I can't see giving hundreds of dollars a month to the church - plus a fasting offering!

I know about the blessings of tithing, etc., but I just don't trust it enough to think that I'm going to be blessed by giving money away, money that I could use to bless my family.

Should I get baptized with these feelings or not? I also understand that baptism doesn't represent the end of the process, and it may help me reach a decision, still, I'm really torn by this. I like going to church and the meetings. I want to continue that; I just don't think I'll ever be temple worthy because of this. Help!

[Dravin]

Obviously, the Resurrection is a huge issue and something that I will have to pray on. Today I told the missionaries that I know that Joseph Smith's vision is true, so who knows, maybe in another week I'll believe in the Resurrection, but tithing is a huge issue with me.

That seems a little odd from my perspective.

Joseph Smith was a Prophet <-> Book of Mormon is scripture. The Book of Mormon testifies of the resurrection (both that of Christ and our future resurrection). I realize I'm coming from a different place than you. I'm not trying to put you down. But if you want someone to address that here (or in another thread) you'll have to go into detail about your concerns as just saying "Joseph Smith did see God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ but I don't believe in the Resurrection" is from the LDS point of view contradictory. :)

You don't have to address it here (or with me). Just pointing out if you did want to you'll have to expound a little more. At any rate if I recommend studying it in the scriptures (the Topical Guide or Index are useful for this) and pray about it. Ultimately people can make arguments about why your concern isn't really a concern (or what have you) but it's going to be the Holy Ghost influencing you that will give you a testimony of it.

Prayer is amazing for concerns. Honestly when I reactivated I had some doctrinal concerns and when I prayed it wasn't that I had some tangible manifestation that just imbued me with testimony but thinks finally clicked and I came to an understanding and the concern kinda melted way.

In church, they announced the sign up for settlement meetings with the bishop and I just got weirded out - how can someone else have control of my money?

You may have a misunderstanding of what tithing settlement consists of.

You go before the Bishop and he provides you documentation about your total offerings and tithing to date (it's tax deductible but I think the legally qualifying documents are given later separate from this itemization). You can review that for accuracy. He then asks you if you are a full tithe payer and you can say yea or nay as the case may be. What a full tithe payer (for instance all the debates you see about paying on the net versus the gross on these very forums) is left up to the person being asked. You aren't interrogated or anything.

Did you think it was a honest to goodness audit? I can kind understand why if so.

Should I get baptized with these feelings or not? I also understand that baptism doesn't represent the end of the process, and it may help me reach a decision, still, I'm really torn by this. I like going to church and the meetings. I want to continue that; I just don't think I'll ever be temple worthy because of this. Help!

Ask your missionaries to go over the Baptismal Interview questions with you before you commit so you have an idea of where you need to be. My stance was always if you can answer those in all sincerity and honesty you are ready for baptism. If you cannot answer them in sincerity and honesty than you need some more time. Now depending on the date they set there may be time to work on it before the date arrives. But my heartfelt advice is if you cannot answer those question don't get baptized, even if it is the day of you realize you can't.

I can post the question here if you want but I honestly think it would be best to go over them with your missionaries. Just because it'll be a better environment and spirit for that conversation than a message board or the silences of your own mind (at least to start off with, you'll probably want to do pondering after that particular meeting).

Edited November 24, 2010 by Dravin

[mnn727]

Tithing Settlement

Bishop >> "Hello Brother and Sister xxxx, thank you for coming in"

Handing you the sheet with the amounts you tithed during the year.

Bishop>> "Brother and Sister xxxx are you a full tithe payer?"

Brother xxxx >> "Yes Bishop" (or "No Bishop")

Bishop >> "Thank You Brother and Sister xxxx"

followed by small talk or perhaps a discussion about (non-financial)Ward goals next year or perhaps about your callings.

Over in just a few minutes.

[rameumptom]

First on tithing: we pay tithes not because we can afford it, but because we have faith in God. In the book of Malachi, the Lord challenges us to "prove" him by paying tithes. If we pay tithes, he is apt to open the windows of heaven for us and pour down blessings.

Let me share two events on this type of faith:

1. Cleotilde is a sister in Bolivia. 30 years ago as a missionary, I went with a local church leader to visit her and encourage her to begin attending Church again. She explained that she couldn't because she had 7 kids, another on the way, and was caring for her mother in law, while her husband had left them all for a younger woman. She needed to sell in the market on Sundays (her best day) to pay for daycare for the youngest ones. I promised her if she were to attend Church on Sundays, the Lord would make up the difference. She took that challenge of faith and attended. Within a couple weeks, she asked me how to pay tithes. New job opportunities came up that more than paid for the missing Sunday salary.

2. Immediately after my mission, I was assigned to home teach a new member of the Church named Bob. Bob was attending school on a scholarship, but barely made ends meet otherwise. He had a problem. He had enough money to pay tithing or his rent, but not both. I was unemployed, but told him that if he would pay his tithes, the Lord would make up the difference or I would pay his rent. He took the challenge of faith and paid his tithes. A couple days before rent was due, he received a letter from his non-LDS mother in another state. She wrote that she always kept putting change in a jar in the kitchen for a rainy day, and something told her to send it to him because he needed it. She sent him a check that was exactly the amount of his rent.

I feel my family is MORE blessed by my paying tithes than if I just spent it on them. The Lord seems to multiply how it works in spiritual ways, as well as temporal ways. I've had difficult times, including being out of work for months at a time, but have always paid tithes even in those periods, because I not only desire but NEED God's blessings and mercies with me.

So, test your faith and watch it grow.

Now, on the Resurrection:

Without the resurrection there really is no sense in Christianity at all. Why worship Jesus Christ, if he was only a good teacher?

This is one of the key reasons for the Restoration of the full gospel in these last days. Today, we have prophets and apostles who have seen the resurrected Savior. Joseph Smith saw him in the First Vision, with Sidney Rigdon in the Vision of the Kingdoms of Heaven (D&C 76), and with Oliver Cowdery (D&C 110). Since then, many of our prophets and apostles have seen the resurrected Christ.

It is a wonderful thing to know that God lives and Christ really did resurrect, opening the way for us to also resurrect with perfected bodies and return to God's presence. As I've studied the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon, my testimony of the atonement and resurrection of Christ has grown. The Holy Spirit has witnessed it to me in such strong ways that I know I could not deny it. It brings me hope, peace, and comfort in a difficult world to know that we will live again and do so in a wonderful state of happiness and joy.

[beefche]

dahlia, will you share with us your specific concerns? I think we could offer better thoughts if we knew what exactly you were concerned about with resurrection and tithing.

I will say, that I think Dravin is correct that talking to the missionaries or even talking to the bishop about your concerns might be a better venue. But I know that many of us would love to help answer your concerns as well.

[mnn727]

Something I didn't connect either for a long time

If Joseph Smith was a Prophet (which you say you accept) then what he taught about the resurrection and about tithing is true.

[skippy740]

Tithing is a financial act of faith. I know it is not easy, but it gets easier once it becomes a habit.

The Almighty, having far greater resources than we can ever have, has made promises regarding tithing. And when we follow the commandments, the Lord is BOUND to keep those promises.

D&C 82:10

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

What promises?

Malachi 3:8-12

8 ¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.

12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts.

Now, this doesn't mean that you won't have financial challenges. It IS a test of our faith to see if we will trust in the Lord, or trust in the arm of flesh (or green paper money).

When taking a "leap of faith" like this, I think of Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade. When Indiana takes a leap into the chasm from the lion's head to get to the grail... he's stepping out into NOTHINGNESS. He didn't know that there was a stone bridge that was below him that he couldn't see. He had to take the leap FIRST to LEARN that there was that support there.

Just my own way to expound on this.

[MarginOfError]

I'm not going to make a speech about tithing. I just want to point out that faith and doubt can coexist. You can believe in the Savior and doubt tithing. You can believe that this is Christ's church and doubt tithing. And that's okay. It's' facing these doubts and seeking answers that strengthens and enhances faith.

and I guess I will give a tithing speech. I believe that tithing will not make you richer. But it will make you happier. Keep learning and growing!

[Just_A_Guy]

Without going into details, let's just say things have been very difficult financially for the past few years and I am only just now crawling out of those problems. I have to say that things began to improve last spring, as I was reading about the LDS church on my own, and they just keep getting better. The problem is, now that things are better, I feel I have to build up my resources. I don't have anyone else's income to depend on; I need this money for retirement. Some new furniture and clothes would not be bad, either, as these things are getting pretty old.

I'm not against giving an offering, but the tithing scares me. In church, they announced the sign up for settlement meetings with the bishop and I just got weirded out - how can someone else have control of my money? I have so much to make up for, I can't see giving hundreds of dollars a month to the church - plus a fasting offering!

I know about the blessings of tithing, etc., but I just don't trust it enough to think that I'm going to be blessed by giving money away, money that I could use to bless my family.

For what it's worth: I refer my bankruptcy clients to Dave Ramsey Debtor Education, and Ramsey (while not a Mormon) is very big on paying a 10% tithe whether it be to your church, or just to a charity of your choice. So it is possible to stabilize your financial life while paying a tithe. Frankly, it may not be "faith" that you need to change so much as "habit".

(And, obviously, retirement/emergency savings is a good thing, but let's face it: no one ever thinks that they've saved "enough" and are ready to start paying tithing. It's just human nature.)

I'm really torn by this. I like going to church and the meetings. I want to continue that; I just don't think I'll ever be temple worthy because of this. Help!

Don't get baptized if you don't feel you can make/keep the underlying commitments. But, frankly, I wouldn't fret too much about it. As long as you keep finding each Sunday meeting spiritually fulfilling and contributing to your individual growth, I would venture to guess that at some point you'll find that--without having preoccupied yourself with it--you're suddenly ready to commit to paying a full tithe.

[dahlia]

That seems a little odd from my perspective.

Joseph Smith was a Prophet <-> Book of Mormon is scripture. The Book of Mormon testifies of the resurrection (both that of Christ and our future resurrection).

Yes. I see your point! To be more clear, I should have said, 'I now believe Joseph Smith saw a vision.' That was a major hurdle for me. That the vision implies the Resurrection is a separate hurdle for me altogether. Yes, perhaps most people come to believe in the two together, I have to come at them one at a time. Though I have been Catholic, I left the church a long time ago over the issues of Original Sin, the Resurrection, and the role of women. So, I am not coming to the LDS from a perspective of a Christian who already believes in the risen Christ.

Did you think it was a honest to goodness audit? I can kind understand why if so.

Maybe not as much as an audit, but perhaps a rather grueling session as to why you aren't paying a full tithe.

Ask your missionaries to go over the Baptismal Interview questions with you before you commit so you have an idea of where you need to be. ... If you cannot answer them in sincerity and honesty than you need some more time.

Yes, this is a good idea. The baptism date they suggested is still a few weeks away, perhaps they were working up to the questions. I have a list of them, but looked at them awhile ago, before even thinking about baptism. I will look at them again.

[dahlia]

Tithing Settlement

Bishop >> "Hello Brother and Sister xxxx, thank you for coming in"

Handing you the sheet with the amounts you tithed during the year.

Bishop>> "Brother and Sister xxxx are you a full tithe payer?"

Brother xxxx >> "Yes Bishop" (or "No Bishop")

Bishop >> "Thank You Brother and Sister xxxx"

followed by small talk or perhaps a discussion about (non-financial)Ward goals next year or perhaps about your callings.

Over in just a few minutes.

Well, that was certainly not the impression I had! When the announcement to sign up was made, there wasn't a collective moan throughout the congregation, so I assumed people were OK with it because they were used to it and were all paying their 10%. :)

So, what if you were temple worthy the previous year, but suffered a financial problem this year (as millions of Americans are) and couldn't tithe? Would you lose your temple card? There are people out there who are in dire straights. For example, blessings or not, if I lost a job at the level I have now and had to take any kind of work, I would have to think twice before giving 10% of the income of my new job at Walmart while trying to keep the roof over my head. I would think it irresponsible to tithe when your family is suffering.

[dahlia]

Tithing is a financial act of faith. I know it is not easy, but it gets easier once it becomes a habit.

When taking a "leap of faith" like this, I think of Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade. When Indiana takes a leap into the chasm from the lion's head to get to the grail... he's stepping out into NOTHINGNESS. He didn't know that there was a stone bridge that was below him that he couldn't see. He had to take the leap FIRST to LEARN that there was that support there.

What a great example! I remember that part very well; you could see Harrison Ford/Indy really thinking whether he should step out or not - and then, the leap of faith! Just beautiful to me. I'm not sure yet that I can apply it to tithing , but I can apply it to other areas where my knowledge is not strong and where I should probably rely on faith instead of looking for every 'i' to be dotted and every 't' to be crossed.

[dahlia]

For what it's worth: I refer my bankruptcy clients to Dave Ramsey Debtor Education, and Ramsey (while not a Mormon) is very big on paying a 10% tithe whether it be to your church, or just to a charity of your choice.

Ah yes. I am a 'friend of Dave R.' as it were, and you are right about his stance on tithing/supporting a charity even as you are climbing out of a financial mess.

Darn. You know I didn't want to hear that, don't you?

I will have to pull out my old Ramsey materials (back before he was famous and cute, too bad I didn't follow him back then!) and re-read what he says.

[dahlia]

OK - I wanted to answer those who were kind enough to respond to my concerns, now I want to tell you something that happened to me that changed my thoughts on the Resurrection.

When I was entering the RS meeting, a woman took me aside, I didn't even know her, and she asked had I seen, 'The Case for Christ'? I answered no, but that I would look at it. Well, I finally had a chance to see it last night.

This, my friends, was what I'd been looking for and what my dear missionaries had been unable to provide. The video is by an atheist reporter whose wife was agnostic, but became Christian. As she became stronger in her faith, he almost lost her because he was such a self-righteous atheist jerk. As a well-known legal reporter for a famous paper, he was able to get interviews with many bible scholars. He wanted to learn the 'facts' of the Resurrection, just as he would scope out the facts for a news story.

The kind of scholarly work presented (in a very comfortable and interesting way, I should add) was just what I was looking for. I learned I really don't know the Bible at all. When I learned what was really in it, learned that some 500 people had seen the risen Christ, that there is just so much proof that indeed, it wouldn't make sense if you didn't believe. The video shows the texts as the scholars speak - it's all right there! No one has to 'make up' a story, the story is given to us.

As a Catholic, you learn about the persecution of the early Christians. What I didn't really understand, psychologically, was that when Christ died, there was no reason for the apostles to go out and preach, no reason for the martyrs to die - they all could have simply said they had a good thing while it lasted, now lets move on to the next messiah (and even I knew that there had been many false prophets before Christ).

But they didn't. People don't go to their deaths, people don't preach under threat of death if they didn't believe that Christ had risen - and they could believe it because there are witness accounts. And what was important for me to learn, is that there are witness accounts, and accounts from those who had learned from witnesses, in addition to the apostle accounts, which as an adult, I figured they were just trying to keep their thing going.

I realized that I know very little about the Bible. I'll be honest, when my missionaries and the visitors would quote Scripture, sometimes i wondered, 'why do you go to Scripture all the time? What else is there?' But there it is! Why would you quote from anything else? For the first time, I got an adult view of the time line of the writing of the Bible, the direct line of witnesses and those who heard witness accounts. There was even a section discussing that if the Bible had been written as a sales pitch, let's say,that the writers of the time would not have had women be the first to notice that the tomb was open due to women's low status at the time. Someone trying to sell a new religion would have had men make the discovery. Great stuff!

I'm happy for all of you who can say 'just pray on it' and that helps you. But I must be a terrible person, because it wasn't enough for me. I needed more facts, and now I have them!

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I was a little worried about doing Bible study, but now I am very excited because I have such an opportunity to learn what I've missed over the years.

So, what I thought was a bit of a strange encounter, turned out to be just what I had been looking for. Strange how it works out that way sometimes, huh?

[Dravin]

So, what if you were temple worthy the previous year, but suffered a financial problem this year (as millions of Americans are) and couldn't tithe?

There are few circumstance in which one could literally not tithe and that would be when you aren't in control of your money (or you don't have any but then 10% of $0 is $0) for what ever reason. Other circumstances where one could tithe but it would probably be excused would be in a mixed faith marriage where the spouse considers money communal and has issues with money going to the Church for whatever reasons even if it's from your paycheck. A lot more common is when people feel like they can't pay tithing, but that isn't the same as not being able to.

You'd want to talk with your Bishop about your situation.

Would you lose your temple card?

Being a full tithe payer is a part of being temple worthy. It is a commandment we covenant to obey at baptism. In fact it's a privilege to be able to pay tithing. Which is probably an odd way to look at it from your perspective but non-members cannot pay tithing though they can give offerings. You'll also run into those in the Church who talk about not being about to afford not paying tithing because of the blessings and promises associated with it are cherished, and yes even those in dire circumstances like you describe.

For the record I've not been in those circumstances. Those why I'm speaking about those in the Church rather than myself.

There are people out there who are in dire straights. For example, blessings or not, if I lost a job at the level I have now and had to take any kind of work, I would have to think twice before giving 10% of the income of my new job at Walmart while trying to keep the roof over my head. I would think it irresponsible to tithe when your family is suffering.

If you felt you had to choose between eating or paying rent or what have you and paying tithing you'd go talk to your Bishop. He's either provide you with (or help you obtain) food, rent money or what you need to get by. In some cases I've heard of Bishops telling members not to tithe in some circumstances (the mixed marriage one is a common one). I've heard some mentioned about being in dire straights and the Bishop telling them to not pay but I don't know how common that is, but as a Judge in Israel if your Bishop told you he'd rather you not pay tithing rather than paying and having the Church provide groceries or what have you, one could do such with a clear conscience and report as a full tithe payer.

You may be thinking, "Wait? Why does it make financial sense to pay $200 tithing only to receive $200 worth of food from the Church?" That's because tithing isn't about finances, though it is used to fund the Lord's Kingdom on the earth, it's about sacrifice and faith.

I hope I'm not coming across as brow beating you about how you just need to have more faith. You know that already and recognize you need to develop that faith to resolve your concern. I'm trying to answer you question and perhaps give you another viewpoint of how to look at it. Who knows, something may click. And if not, no worries, I didn't waste all that much of your time. :)

Edited November 25, 2010 by Dravin

[Guest Elder_Bevan]

well Dahlia,

The lord asks us to walk by faith, sometimes we aren't sure on somethings, sometimes we feel like we just need to know before we act. This is not true though, we all go through a trial of our faith, this is a time where we make a decision not knowing how it will turn out. Our heavenly father blesses us according to our faith. I want to tell you too stories one is a true statement, the other is a story that talks about what i just said.

First the story: a man is walking by a cliff, when suddenly a wind picks up and blows on him. he is thrown off balance a little. then the wind blows even stronger and pushes him off the cliff. he manages to catch onto a tree limb. he is dangling about 250 ft high. he calls out "god help me" then he hears a voice say "do you believe I created the heavens and the earth?" he replies "yea lord " he says do you believe that I can do all things?" he answers "yes i do lord" then god asks, "do you believe that I created the wind that blew you off the cliff?" he answers "yes I do" then his final question "do you believe I can create a wind strong enough to blow you back up onto the cliff?" he says "yes" then the lord replies "then let go of the branch."

this is like your situation of tithing. the lord asks you to do something that is very very hard, but he is all powerful and will bless you.

the quote I wanted to share is by Dallin H. Oaks' mother, she said "Dallin, there might be some people who can get along without paying tithing, but we can't. The Lord has chosen to take your father and leave me to raise you children. I cannot do that without the blessings of the Lord, and I obtain those blessings by paying an honest tithing. When I pay my tithing, I have the Lord's promise that he will bless us, and we must have those blessings if we are to get along."

baptism is the right decision, I promise you this. the knowledge of those laws will come.

[rameumptom]

Dahlia, you aren't a terrible person. Paul taught that faith is "evidence" of things not seen. You needed evidence, and you received it. Yes, according to Luke in Acts, over 500 people witnessed the resurrected Christ ascend into heaven.

In the Book of Mormon, the resurrected Christ appeared to over 2500 people, healing many and blessing their children. Of course, we also have the testimonies of ancient prophets and apostles who saw him at different times and places. And today we have modern prophets and apostles who are special witnesses of Christ. That is perhaps one of the key things that sets us apart from the other Christian denominations. We have modern witnesses of Christ to add to the ancient ones. Sadly, many disbelieve the ancient testimonies today, so having modern witnesses strengthens that ancient witness in the Bible.

The prophet Alma faced an atheist named Korihor, and spoke of the prophetic witnesses of Christ that preceded him, but also insisted that even the workings of the universe denote there is a God who sets all things in motion (Alma 30). Earlier in the Book of Mormon, the missionary Aaron went before the atheist king of the Lamanites, and testified of Christ to him. Through the preaching and through personal prayer, the king received his own miraculous witness of Christ, which he then shared his witness with those in his household and throughout his kingdom.

I believe in the Savior's resurrection and atonement, because of the witnesses in the scriptures, modern witnesses, and mostly because of personal revelation through the Holy Ghost that I have received. It is a comfort and solid foundation upon which to build our lives in times when the world is falling apart.

[Maya]

Dear Dahlia. My testimony on titings:

My husband of 9 years had left me and my girls. We had build a big house which we payed (my mom that it) him out. He kept paying the loan though. He did not inform his moving to officials and thus was able to skip paying a cent to me to survive with the girls. I was studying and got monthly some money from the student stipend and loan. I could have taken up loan, but bad thing about loan is that you have to pay it back. The money was not enough and with one small kid and one a bit bigger I could not go to work in the evenings. Anyway Christmas was closing and I got my money, the last sum I would get before Janyary. All except some 30 $ went to bills and titings. So 3 weeks to Christmas and 30$ to survive with if I payed the titings. Even if I did not pay the titings it would be tight, as the money I got was not much and 10% was even less. I sighed and closed my eyes and tought... well Hevenly Father, you have promised to take care of your children... I have a bit of a mayday here now and I would so much like to have a Christmas for my kids.

I did not eat during the week but staked cabbage (it was pretty usuall for me in thoise days). Kids got real good warm food in school so I did not need to worry about them. All we bought home was cerials and youghort and some bread and milk. But I knew teh 30$ would not last long.

Sunday I went to the church as usual with the kids.... smiling like always. Then the bishop suddenly winked me over to him. I said to my friend .. what ever it is I did nto do it... adn we grinned. I had NOT told anyone about my special moneytrobles, I suppose the bishop knew I did not have so very much.. there is somethign about the birds of heaven....

Maya ... there is this family who moved to USA... I had given them my kids old bikes and something else and tried to help them when they moved to Finland a few years ago... a very nice family. I looked like a questionmark. "Well they had prayed and they felt that I could use this.... " He pushed thowards me on the table a 500$ note (the biggest papermoney printed in Finland, I just say $ to make it more understndable... values match about)

I knew and trusted that my Hevenly Father would help me to get over Christmas in a way or an other... but I never expected this. I just started to cry. I hardly manged to whisper thank you.

So I have a very stron testimony of the titings, yet I have not always been able to keep ajoure, sometimes I payed too much or in advance sometimes I have payed a month later. I know He knows I would not deny anything from Him... it may just take some time to arrange.

Here is an interesting and touching story of one convert: Meridian Magazine - A Remarkable Journey to Mormonism Part Three

[dahlia]

Maya - thank you for pointing me to the Meridian piece. I was kind of reading along,just curious, but not really feeling anything until I got to this,

"Then, suddenly, it hit me. The trial for me is not having 100% knowledge. I’m the kind of person who wants ALL the information. I want to study everything out ahead of time. I would never go to a test unprepared, and what could be more important than eternity?"

If that's not me, I don't know what is! I'm even a professor of information science! This is probably my biggest problem with converting - I want to know it all and perhaps that's not possible in this case. Sigh. Back to studying and learning.

Thanks again for your post.

[Maya]

As I red that story during week... when I came EXCACTLY to that place... I just felt that someone out there needs to know this.

An other good one is Acts 8 28-38.

Yes we dont need the perfect knowledge we just need to 1. Acknowledge Jesus Christ and His atonement for us 2. repend, and we are good to get wet! All the rest will be taught to us bit by bit by the Holy Spirit (as we have the gift as members). Basics have to be strong to build big!:) Happy building!

[bytebear]

"Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" -1 Thes. 5: 21

Here is what I recommend. Test the principal of Tithing. Hold aside 10% of your income for the next few months, and see how you feel about it. If after a time you decide not to be baptized, then use the money for yourself. Otherwise, you are already ahead of the curve on your tithing. The church never asks for back tithing, by the way, so don't worry if you don't stick with the principal consistently. It's about individual learning sacrifice, not about the church squeezing money from the membership.

[MorningStar]

Tithing is one of the greatest opportunities to exercise faith and from a scriptural point of view, the Lord gives us everything and it is His law - that money actually belongs to Him. It is a promise in the scriptures that the windows of Heaven will be opened to us if we pay our tithing! My family has struggled for many years, but we have always managed somehow to have the things that we need and blessings come in unexpected ways. Someone will suddenly ask if we need something. For instance, we felt in need of a larger bed and out of the blue, a friend of a friend offered us a bed that was under warranty and had frayed a bit. The company didn't want it back and sent her a new one. That mattress blessed us for over a decade.

When things were tight after my husband got a better job for him with lower pay, a friend wanted to unload a bunch of food and specified that she wanted us to have it. Would I rather have a lot of money? Yes. But I believe there is a reason our family is going through this trial and our needs have always been provided one way or another. I am suddenly getting a bunch of piano students and they love me, which is leading to more referrals. I absolutely love it. If it weren't for our struggles, I probably wouldn't have taken this on, but I did out of necessity and it has been such a joy. My students come running to the door to greet me. I'm expecting to turn things around financially this year because of it and expect to have more students than I can manage within a few months.

It is hard not to grip onto all of the money we receive, especially with the economy being so bad, but seriously, the blessings of paying tithing are so great and not just financially.

As for the Resurrection, it is one of the most comforting thoughts I have and I have no doubt about the reality of it. I love to study it in the scriptures. Prayers for you as you come to your decision. :)

[Guest]

My 2 cents on tithing:

I was a full tithe payer when I was baptized. A few years later, my husband lost his job and we had a 2nd baby on the way. I got scared. I prayed and prayed and then I started to question... "I'm a full tithe payer and God promised that he will bless me for it, yet here we are with bills and no job". So, I quit tithing... I had to. Out of everybody asking money, the Church was the only one who didn't send collectors knocking on my door if I didn't pay...

A few months after I stopped tithing, I started to stay home on Sunday instead of going to Church. I was tired, I just had a baby. I'm not paying tithing so why bother going to Church... then, of course, with post-partum depression, my relationship with my husband suffered. Until over a few years later, I was inactive, and so was my husband. My kids were hit-or-miss in primary. I realized I'm not the person I wanted to be.

I looked back into the past and realized, I went downhill exactly at the moment I stopped paying tithes. My husband was only out of a job for a few months but we haven't gone back to paying tithes.

So yeah, tithing doesn't make your financial worries disappear. No, you won't always get "miracle money" because you are faithful with tithing. No, things will not always become easier once you pay tithing. The Church will still continue with or without your tithes. And no, the Prophet is not trying to line his pockets or make a profit - but tithes is the only way the Church can build temples.

So, I started to think, when I get my paycheck, there's this thing on it that says Federal Income Tax Withheld. You know, I don't have to pay that withholding tax. I can always call up my employer and change my W2 so that I don't have to pay that money. But, I pay it. Americans volunteered to give up tax money by voting for it. And everybody that I talk to pays it without any problem. My husband and I pay without a problem. As a matter of fact, we pay it so habitually that we don't even "see" that money as ours at all. Even when we're in a financial hardship, we never question the Federal Income Tax or ask not to pay it.

So, why do I have a problem with tithing? Isn't building temples more important than building freeways?

So, when I get my paycheck, I pay tithing first, then pay bills next. I make it so that it is like paying taxes. Even if I can't pay my bills, I still pay taxes. And now tithes. And when I write that check, I think of all the things this money can do for God's work. No, I don't think about what it can do for "ME". I already know what it can do if I lose the faith...