The Da Vinci Code

[Winnie G]

Have any of you read The Da Vinci Code?

I bought a copy today after a friend’s husband told me he read it and it changed his view on the Catholic Church. He is now attending church with us. (Fingers crossed)

I have not broke the binding yet and I am looking for others who have read it.

I plan to see the movie as long as it is not an R rating.

[tngu]

I loved this book!! I don't want to write a book report though. It's just something that you have to read!! I can't wait to see the movie!!

[Dr T]

It was a fun book given all the suspense, cryptology, and putting puzzles together. It was a page turner. Inaccurate, but fun to read.

Dr. T

[prisonchaplain]

It was a fun book given all the suspense, cryptology, and putting puzzles together. It was a page turner. Inaccurate, but fun to read.

Dr. T

The Roman Catholic Church agrees with you about the inaccuracy of the book--or at least Catholic Answers (an apologetics group, along the lines of FAIR) does. For their take on the book see: http://www.catholic.com/library/cracking_da_vinci_code.asp

[Outshined]

I think some took it way too seriously. It was marketed as a work of fiction, after all...

EDIT: The main difference I see between the web site mentioned and FAIR is that it has a section devoted to attacking the LDS, Jehovas Winesses, Seventh-Day Adventists and others (under the heading of "non-Christian"), whereas FAIR has no such section attacking any other church. Fair is an actual apologetics group, not a group who attacks other faiths.

[lumberjacksdaughter]

It is hard to comment on the book without a "spoiler". Yes, it was well written and I was riveted. I had an open mind about the subject matter. But by the very end it turned out to be just another attempt to trivialize Christian beliefs such as sex outside of marriage is a sin. I wish I could go into more detail.

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

I really enjoyed the read, but in the end, I felt like I had been used. The driving plot is a vehicle for pushing morals and ideals which are contrary to mine. It is fiction, though very convincingly written in places. I can see how it upset Catholics. I would be really angry about a book of this kind written about LDS history.

[prisonchaplain]

I think some took it way too seriously. It was marketed as a work of fiction, after all...

EDIT: The main difference I see between the web site mentioned and FAIR is that it has a section devoted to attacking the LDS, Jehovas Winesses, Seventh-Day Adventists and others (under the heading of "non-Christian"), whereas FAIR has no such section attacking any other church. Fair is an actual apologetics group, not a group who attacks other faiths.

Perhaps the difference is more subtle than you suggest. The LDS church sends missionaries to evangelical and Catholic doors, and sees great merit in converting such folk to the Mormon faith. I'm sure that Catholic Answers, as the name implies, would argue that it is not attacking these other faiths, but defending Catholic teaching from groups that seek to take away members. I don't believe Catholic Answers has sent any emmissaries to your door, Outshine?

Let me repeat--I oppose muckraking, the spreading of intentional falsehoods, and any hint of physical intimidation. However, perhaps because of historical violence, I think the line between apologetics and "attacking other religions" is sometimes blurred here.

[Snow]

Perhaps the difference is more subtle than you suggest. The LDS church sends missionaries to evangelical and Catholic doors, and sees great merit in converting such folk to the Mormon faith. I'm sure that Catholic Answers, as the name implies, would argue that it is not attacking these other faiths, but defending Catholic teaching from groups that seek to take away members. I don't believe Catholic Answers has sent any emmissaries to your door, Outshine?

Let me repeat--I oppose muckraking, the spreading of intentional falsehoods, and any hint of physical intimidation. However, perhaps because of historical violence, I think the line between apologetics and "attacking other religions" is sometimes blurred here.

Poppycock!

Some historical exceptions aside, Mormonism is a religion of promotion. Whether in person or published, our message is positive and one of attraction. Missionaries don't knock on your door and preach the degeneracy of the papacy. The LDS website doesn't have a section that belittles the Protestant movement.

It all seems to me to spring either from immaturity or lack of belief in the value of your own message.

[prisonchaplain]

[Poppycock!

Some historical exceptions aside, Mormonism is a religion of promotion. Whether in person or published, our message is positive and one of attraction. Missionaries don't knock on your door and preach the degeneracy of the papacy. The LDS website doesn't have a section that belittles the Protestant movement.

It all seems to me to spring either from immaturity or lack of belief in the value of your own message.

Audience, Snow, audience. The doctrine of Restored Gospel, while a promotion of the LDS, is also a non-affirmation of other Christian churches. Have you not been taught that spiritual authority rests only within the LDS Church? In explaining church government to members, is there not some implied skepticism about the paid clergy amongst non-LDS Christianity? Do not the MTCs teach new missionaries to answer the common evangelical and Catholic objections?

I'll readily agree with you that some anti-cult seminars are poorly done, some lack integrity, etc. But your suggestion that evangelical (or Catholic) education about Mormons is always hateful, and always an attack, whereas Mormon efforts are always positive, and always affirming--even of those with whom there is disagreement, is a bit much.

[Guest MrsS]

I'll readily agree with you that some anti-cult seminars are poorly done, some lack integrity, etc. But your suggestion that evangelical (or Catholic) education about Mormons is always hateful, and always an attack, whereas Mormon efforts are always positive, and always affirming--even of those with whom there is disagreement, is a bit much.

PC, I have not seen the movies that some of the Baptists have put out bashing Mormons, my husband has. He went to a Sunday service with a dear friend of his, and got up and left 20 minutes into the sermon, because of the filth and garbage the preacher was spewing about those d---n Mormons. Made him sick to his stomach. Then his friend insisted that he come to his house to see this movie. He went. It was awful.

My husbands daughter belongs to a christian religion that spends most of its time bashing Mormons. Because he refuses to denounce his faith, she refuses to have anything to do with him and will not allow him to see or even hear about her children. The last time he even caught a glimpse of his three granddaughters the oldest was 5 and the youngest was still in diapers. The youngest daughter is now 12 and he has a grandson he never knew about - he is 8. The only reason he knows this now, is she finally wrote him a letter after 10 years! She heard he had left the church. He has yet to answer her.

Just because you haven't seen or heard it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. It is happening.

We are the only faith that believes in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost ~ who uses the KJV of the Bible, whose church's name is named after Jesus Christ (Jesus Christ named it, through revelation to Joseph Smith!) who are publicly admonished (is that the word I want?) as NOT being Christian. We are constantly accused of being a Cult. An Evil and Satanic Cult at that. Gee Whiz ~ enough already. We are Christians. We believe in Jesus Christ. We worship Jesus Christ and God. We believe in the Bible. We believe in the Ten Commandments, We obey ALL the commandments of God and Jesus Christ.

At least most of the LDS do. I do. I do my best to obey them.

We are constantly being taught by our First Presidency, 12 Apostles, Quorum of the 12, 70's. etc. YOU DO NOT BASH OTHER FAITHS! We are to take what is good in other's religion, combine it with the good in our religion and go forward with that which we have learned.

PC, go back to lds.org. Click on Gospel Library, then click on HTML. From there click on magazines. Start with Ensign, 1971, January, and start reading. You have over 34 years worth of magazines to read. I can absolutely guarantee that you will NOT find one article in any of our magazines; i.e. Ensign (adult), New Era(youth) and The Friend (Children) or in any of our curriculum( Priesthood-Aaronic & Melchizedek; Relief Society(Women); Young Women, Sunday School (all ages); that bashes or mocks or misrepresents another faith.

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

[Poppycock!

Some historical exceptions aside, Mormonism is a religion of promotion. Whether in person or published, our message is positive and one of attraction. Missionaries don't knock on your door and preach the degeneracy of the papacy. The LDS website doesn't have a section that belittles the Protestant movement.

It all seems to me to spring either from immaturity or lack of belief in the value of your own message.

Audience, Snow, audience. The doctrine of Restored Gospel, while a promotion of the LDS, is also a non-affirmation of other Christian churches. Have you not been taught that spiritual authority rests only within the LDS Church? In explaining church government to members, is there not some implied skepticism about the paid clergy amongst non-LDS Christianity? Do not the MTCs teach new missionaries to answer the common evangelical and Catholic objections?

I'll readily agree with you that some anti-cult seminars are poorly done, some lack integrity, etc. But your suggestion that evangelical (or Catholic) education about Mormons is always hateful, and always an attack, whereas Mormon efforts are always positive, and always affirming--even of those with whom there is disagreement, is a bit much.

Sure - I agree that saying the LDS Church is the sole, completely true, restored Church implies that other Churches are not. I am fine with that just as I am fine if another Church says that they are the sole completely true Church. That's a positive thing. I don't have to agree with them but I'm fine with that. I am opposed to Churches actively tearing down other churches.

The LDS Church, if nothing else, is a class act, in a relgious universe of many low class acts,

[Snow]

I'll readily agree with you that some anti-cult seminars are poorly done, some lack integrity, etc. But your suggestion that evangelical (or Catholic) education about Mormons is always hateful, and always an attack, whereas Mormon efforts are always positive, and always affirming--even of those with whom there is disagreement, is a bit much.

Perhaps you see stuff I haven't but as far as I can tell, the whole "anti-cult" cottage industry are the dregs of religious society. In a survey of ministers about what they recommend for LDS information, the number one source is The God Makers, as ugly and dishonest a source as there is but if more along the line of a rule rather than an exception. Most all of it is trash.

[Outshined]

Perhaps the difference is more subtle than you suggest.

Nope, FAIR has no section attacking other faiths, as Catholic Answers does.

I don't believe Catholic Answers has sent any emmissaries to your door, Outshine?

No, but neither has FAIR...

perhaps because of historical violence, I think the line between apologetics and "attacking other religions" is sometimes blurred here.

Have you actually read their section on other churches(some of which may describe your own)? Might change your view on that.

[Lindy]

Just because you haven't seen or heard it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. It is happening.

We are the only faith that believes in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost ~ who uses the KJV of the Bible, whose church's name is named after Jesus Christ (Jesus Christ named it, through revelation to Joseph Smith!) who are publicly admonished (is that the word I want?) as NOT being Christian. We are constantly accused of being a Cult. An Evil and Satanic Cult at that. Gee Whiz ~ enough already. We are Christians. We believe in Jesus Christ. We worship Jesus Christ and God. We believe in the Bible. We believe in the Ten Commandments, We obey ALL the commandments of God and Jesus Christ.

At least most of the LDS do. I do. I do my best to obey them.

We are constantly being taught by our First Presidency, 12 Apostles, Quorum of the 12, 70's. etc. YOU DO NOT BASH OTHER FAITHS! We are to take what is good in other's religion, combine it with the good in our religion and go forward with that which we have learned.

PC, go back to lds.org. Click on Gospel Library, then click on HTML. From there click on magazines. Start with Ensign, 1971, January, and start reading. You have over 34 years worth of magazines to read. I can absolutely guarantee that you will NOT find one article in any of our magazines; i.e. Ensign (adult), New Era(youth) and The Friend (Children) or in any of our curriculum( Priesthood-Aaronic & Melchizedek; Relief Society(Women); Young Women, Sunday School (all ages); that bashes or mocks or misrepresents another faith.

My husbands daughter belongs to a christian religion that spends most of its time bashing Mormons. Because he refuses to denounce his faith, she refuses to have anything to do with him and will not allow him to see or even hear about her children. The last time he even caught a glimpse of his three granddaughters the oldest was 5 and the youngest was still in diapers. The youngest daughter is now 12 and he has a grandson he never knew about - he is 8.

Mrs S~ I agree with you, and I really appreciate your post... it's sad that others have to hate and fear that which they don't understand.... and who suffers?.... The children.

[prisonchaplain]

I think some took it way too seriously. It was marketed as a work of fiction, after all...

EDIT: The main difference I see between the web site mentioned and FAIR is that it has a section devoted to attacking the LDS, Jehovas Winesses, Seventh-Day Adventists and others (under the heading of "non-Christian"), whereas FAIR has no such section attacking any other church. Fair is an actual apologetics group, not a group who attacks other faiths.

I checked the Catholic Answers website, and found Fundamentalists listed in the section too. Perhaps Mormons take a less aggressive approach to defending the faith, sticking to questions, and not responding to specific groups, but, IMHO the whole notion of a faith group defending its beliefs, and countering the claims of those who seek converts from its ranks, is justified.

I'm not defending specific approaches or "answers," but the general notion of defending faith and doctrines, and answering critics and would be converters.

[prisonchaplain]

PC, I have not seen the movies that some of the Baptists have put out bashing Mormons, my husband has.

Probably The God Makers--a sensational, and at times inflammatory work.

He went to a Sunday service with a dear friend of his, and got up and left 20 minutes into the sermon, because of the filth and garbage the preacher was spewing about those d---n Mormons. Made him sick to his stomach. Then his friend insisted that he come to his house to see this movie. He went. It was awful.

Doesn't sound like the kind of thing I was defending. Boorishness, sensationalism, and intentional misrepresentation are reprehensible whereever they are found--especially from Christian sources.

My husbands daughter belongs to a christian religion that spends most of its time bashing Mormons. Because he refuses to denounce his faith, she refuses to have anything to do with him and will not allow him to see or even hear about her children. The last time he even caught a glimpse of his three granddaughters the oldest was 5 and the youngest was still in diapers. The youngest daughter is now 12 and he has a grandson he never knew about - he is 8. The only reason he knows this now, is she finally wrote him a letter after 10 years! She heard he had left the church. He has yet to answer her.

There are fundamentalist sects that believer in "separation." They separate themselves from all who call themselves Christians, but practice a faith that doesn't meet their standard of true Christianity. Such groups generally stay away from Catholics, Pentecostals, Charismatics, and so-called "ecumenical" groups. They even skewer the Promise Keepers (who had Catholics on the stage, gasp!)

Just because you haven't seen or heard it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. It is happening.

I endorse legimitate apologetics, defending of the faith, answering the questions of other groups, not stupidity and spiritual bullying in the name of Jesus.

We are the only faith that believes in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost ~ who uses the KJV of the Bible, whose church's name is named after Jesus Christ (Jesus Christ named it, through revelation to Joseph Smith!) who are publicly admonished (is that the word I want?) as NOT being Christian. We are constantly accused of being a Cult. An Evil and Satanic Cult at that. Gee Whiz ~ enough already. We are Christians. We believe in Jesus Christ. We worship Jesus Christ and God. We believe in the Bible. We believe in the Ten Commandments, We obey ALL the commandments of God and Jesus Christ.

At least most of the LDS do. I do. I do my best to obey them.

We've tackled several of these issues on other threads, but to give you a brief list of common evangelical critiques:

1. Yes you believe in God, but he's not the same God we believe in. The LDS do not accept the creedal developments that explain for us what the Holy Trinity is.

2. You use the KJV of the Bible, but you also use the Triad, which we do not accept. Since the totality of your Scripture is different, is your faith the same as ours.

3. You say your Christians, but in fact deny that we (non-LDS) are fully restored Christians.

4. You believe in Jesus, but one who's nature is different from our understanding. You believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, and that all of us are immortal from the beginning. We believe that only the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are immortal from all eternity, and that Lucifer is only an angel, not an equal with Jesus.

5. Yes, you obey the commandments, and many Christians misunderstand that you make works--obedience, etc. a PREREQUISITE of initial conversion--salvation.

I list these, not as an invitation to debate the issues, but so you understand some of the key disagreements evangelicals, fundamentalists, and even many Catholics and mainline Protestants perceive vis a vis your teachings.

We are constantly being taught by our First Presidency, 12 Apostles, Quorum of the 12, 70's. etc. YOU DO NOT BASH OTHER FAITHS! We are to take what is good in other's religion, combine it with the good in our religion and go forward with that which we have learned.

And while you gave some strong examples of "bashing," I hope you'll not allow the boorishness of some Christians to keep you from engaging with open-hearted non-LDS Christians who are more intelligent, and willing to partake in respectful dialogue.

PC, go back to lds.org. Click on Gospel Library, then click on HTML. From there click on magazines. Start with Ensign, 1971, January, and start reading. You have over 34 years worth of magazines to read. I can absolutely guarantee that you will NOT find one article in any of our magazines; i.e. Ensign (adult), New Era(youth) and The Friend (Children) or in any of our curriculum( Priesthood-Aaronic & Melchizedek; Relief Society(Women); Young Women, Sunday School (all ages); that bashes or mocks or misrepresents another faith.

I'll readily admit that modern Mormonism is all about a positive, non-confrontational approach. In this sense, you have more class than many of your critics. I do not defend stupidity, bullying, or lying in the name of Jesus. However, I still defend the right of all groups, including Mormons, to have ready answers for critics and those who would seek converts from our ranks.

[prisonchaplain]

Sure - I agree that saying the LDS Church is the sole, completely true, restored Church implies that other Churches are not. I am fine with that just as I am fine if another Church says that they are the sole completely true Church. That's a positive thing. I don't have to agree with them but I'm fine with that. I am opposed to Churches actively tearing down other churches.

The LDS Church, if nothing else, is a class act, in a relgious universe of many low class acts,

Perhaps we simply differ on this. I would have no problems with FAIR having sections such as: Answers to common evangelical questions, or common Catholic questions, or common Jehovah's Witnesses questions, etc. The fact that the groups are named, instead of kept generic, would not bother me.

Just so you know I do have lines I draw between acceptable and unacceptable. I had to dismiss some religious volunteers once, for speaking negatively about other religions. In that case, it was a Spanish charismatic group that was antagonizing Catholics. After a warning, we received more reports, and we encouraged them to continue their work elsewhere, as we obviously did not have the setting appropriate to what they wanted to accomplish.

[Lindy]

My two cents added in red:

common evangelical critiques:

1. Yes you believe in God, but he's not the same God we believe in. The LDS do not accept the creedal developments that explain for us what the Holy Trinity is.

WHO says that He is not the same God? That is a matter of ignorance, not fact. I could turn that sentence around and say that those who accept the creedal developments that explain the Holy Trinity are wrong..... but that's a subjective opinion isn't it?

2. You use the KJV of the Bible, but you also use the Triad, which we do not accept. Since the totality of your Scripture is different, is your faith the same as ours.

The same? Well, we do believe in the same God who others look at differently...the same Christ... that others have believed in for a couple of thousand years.... and the Bible as far as it is translated correctly... and yes, we have other scriptures that keep us close to our Heavenly Father.... shame that the others don't understand how spiritual the "other sticks" are.

3. You say your Christians, but in fact deny that we (non-LDS) are fully restored Christians.

Hmm I must have missed that in a meeting. I have never been told to deny any non-LDS as a Christian.

4. You believe in Jesus, but one who's nature is different from our understanding. You believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, and that all of us are immortal from the beginning. We believe that only the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are immortal from all eternity, and that Lucifer is only an angel, not an equal with Jesus.

Same Jesus... different from your understanding?.....hmmm Son of God....born of virgin birth... lived, taught of God, persecuted for who he was ... atoned for the sins of the world, crucified on the cross for all of mankind, rose again in resurrection DIFFERENT?... not in my eyes. I guess understanding Lucifer as a brother of Christ would take some understanding/knowledge that we are ALL children of our Heavenly Father. Lucifer is only an angel? Funny, I look at Lucifer as a spirit with an attitude.... who got punished....a fallen Angel.... satan/devil/dark one, enemy of God as you will.... how the heck can you equal that to Jesus? Sick and wrong dude, sick and wrong.

5. Yes, you obey the commandments, and many Christians misunderstand that you make works--obedience, etc. a PREREQUISITE of initial conversion--salvation.

"Misunderstanding" is someones way of not accepting things we see as the truth. In all seriousness, work and obedience vs grace (no obedience or work).... it makes no sense to me that others bad mouth those who are good people living as Christ would have them live.

I list these, not as an invitation to debate the issues, but so you understand some of the key disagreements evangelicals, fundamentalists, and even many Catholics and mainline Protestants perceive vis a vis your teachings.

How sad that some, can't accept others because of a little difference in thinking (what we know as the truth).

Good thing we don't have purple skin, or strange hair color....or be from GASP another country with customs different from the norm.... that would condemn us too I guess.

PC.... I'm glad you have the attitude and the understanding of where to draw some lines... acceptable vs unacceptable. Maybe those who were dismissed will actually think next time before speaking negatively about other religions.

[prisonchaplain]

Special Note: Please understand that the below answers are meant to be concise (thus not always precise), and to explain differences. I was fearful that answering these questions would lead to a debate, rather than simply be an opportunity for us to understand why our two groups have the religious tension we do.

I highly recommend the book How Wide the Divide: A Mormon Evangelical Dialgoue by Robinson (BYU) and Bromberg (Denver Seminary). They are religious scholars, friends, and their presentation is respectful, theologically sound, and yet approachable.</span>

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE(Lindy @ Mar 19 2006, 08:21 AM) ←</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>

WHO says that He is not the same God? That is a matter of ignorance, not fact. I could turn that sentence around and say that those who accept the creedal developments that explain the Holy Trinity are wrong..... but that's a subjective opinion isn't it?

The question is often asked, "What do other Christians really have against our LDS beliefs?" I attempted to answer succinctly. But, I'll try to answer you questions, so you can at least see the reasoning.

Yes, LDS believe in the Trinity. However, there is also room for other "gods." For many Christians, the distinction that our God is first, or the only one worshipped, etc. doesn't matter. More than one god is polytheism. Polytheism is not the historic Christian understanding of one God, three persons.

So, it's not pure ignorance that causes the complaint. It is a difference in doctrinal belief, one that non-LDS Christians think is crucial. And yes, the LDS position is that the rest of Christianity got it wrong--thus the need for the restoration.

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>The same? Well, we do believe in the same God who others look at differently...the same Christ... that others have believed in for a couple of thousand years.... and the Bible as far as it is translated correctly... and yes, we have other scriptures that keep us close to our Heavenly Father.... shame that the others don't understand how spiritual the "other sticks" are.

Most of the LDS distinctive teachings are found in the D&C, if I'm not mistaken. Many core LDS teachings cannot be fully supported, using the Holy Bible alone. So, though you share the Bible with the rest of Christianity, your added Scriptures do lead to different beliefs, and thus a different faith.

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>Hmm I must have missed that in a meeting. I have never been told to deny any non-LDS as a Christian.

I repeat, the LDS church teaches that it alone represents "restored Christianity." So, I may be a Christian, but I'm not a restored Christian. So this divide cuts both ways.

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>Same Jesus... different from your understanding?.....hmmm Son of God....born of virgin birth... lived, taught of God, persecuted for who he was ... atoned for the sins of the world, crucified on the cross for all of mankind, rose again in resurrection DIFFERENT?... not in my eyes. I guess understanding Lucifer as a brother of Christ would take some understanding/knowledge that we are ALL children of our Heavenly Father. Lucifer is only an angel? Funny, I look at Lucifer as a spirit with an attitude.... who got punished....a fallen Angel.... satan/devil/dark one, enemy of God as you will.... how the heck can you equal that to Jesus? Sick and wrong dude, sick and wrong.

Let's break this down a bit. First, yes there are many beliefs about Jesus that Mormons and other Christians share. But, there are differences. You say Jesus is a son of God, as we are all children of God. This is a crucial distinction. Non-Mormon Christians believe that only the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are immortal from eternity. Thus, Jesus, as the one and only Son of God, was not created, and stands quite separate in nature, from Lucifer or us.

Again, the point here is not to argue who's right, but to say there are differences, and those who disagree, are not necessarily ignorant.

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>"Misunderstanding" is someones way of not accepting things we see as the truth. In all seriousness, work and obedience vs grace (no obedience or work).... it makes no sense to me that others bad mouth those who are good people living as Christ would have them live.

If Mormons are right, and I never get, so long as I'm sincere I still go to heaven to be with Jesus forever (the Terrestial Kingdom). If Christians are right--particularly evangelicals--and Mormon teachings are wrong (i.e., JS was not a latter day prophet), then it's an open question as to whether the false beliefs are so erroneous that the salvation of LDS adherents would be in question. I'll not put myself on that judgment throne. However, any sincere religiously-grounded person wants to not only worship with rigor and passion, but with accuracy. Nobody wants to offer God an unworthy sacrifice.

So, why do others "bad mouth?" They think you're wrong and that your "heresies" may lead you to damnation. Furthermore, they see the efforts of your church to recruit converts from among non-LDS Christian ranks as spiritually dangerous.

(BTW, yes, I know that psychologically, some bash because their hearts are full of hate, they themselves are not right with God, and some are just bullies glad to have found a justification for their brutishness).

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE</div><div class=\'quotemain\'><span style="color:#FF0000">Good thing we don't have purple skin, or strange hair color....or be from GASP another country with customs different from the norm.... that would condemn us too I guess.

In my own movement, roughly 3 million adherents are in the United States, over 32 million are in other countries. Our largest church is in Seoul, Korea, and the country with the most members in Brazil. So, it's not about attacking what's different. At least for the sincere, evangelistic and missionary minded believers, it's about defending and sharing truth.

PC.... I'm glad you have the attitude and the understanding of where to draw some lines... acceptable vs unacceptable. Maybe those who were dismissed will actually think next time before speaking negatively about other religions.

No...they'll do it elsewhere. The history in Latin America between Catholics and evangelicals is quite bad. Catholics initially persecuted those they perceived as heretics, and many evangelicals allowed bitterness to take root in their hearts, and responded by shrill condemnations of Catholicism.

[Lindy]

Sorry PC... I guess I was just in a mood just couldn't pass up a little debate material .

I should have listened to that little guy in the white on my right shoulder.... instead of that one in the red on my left...... LOL

I have no problem with how different we are ..... different is what makes the world go round dontcha know?

I appreciate you and your comments PC.... forgive me for jumping in here and there to create a stir...

[StrawberryFields]

I believe that it is fear which leads to Bashing.

If other faiths are so afraid of missionaries stealing their members, they better learn to keep them happy. Bashing to make people fear and hate is not the Lords way.

[TruthTeller69]

Lets look at where all these different "churches" agree.......They ALL want there 10% off the top !!! I give my 10% and feel good about it....I don't aways give it to the a "Church" but I always give it to something that will benefit my brothers and sisters in Christ. The main reason ALL churches HATE to lose members is because it is lost $$$ .

I live for Christ not for Church !!

[prisonchaplain]

Lets look at where all these different "churches" agree.......They ALL want there 10% off the top !!! I give my 10% and feel good about it....I don't aways give it to the a "Church" but I always give it to something that will benefit my brothers and sisters in Christ. The main reason ALL churches HATE to lose members is because it is lost $$$ .

I live for Christ not for Church !!

Easy to rebut: As a rule, denominational organizations do not raise up or sponsor "cult ministries." These are usually independent or non-denominational organizations. They tend to be rather small. On occasion a church may host a meeting, but's for most who do, it's a once in a decade or less event.

BTW, exactly who is this mystery element called "the church," that wants this money? Is it the members? The leadership? The national leadership? Yes, most churches want to grow, to succeed, to be fruitful in the work of the gospel. But, if measuring is done, it's usually a measure of membership, not weekly donation receipts.

[prisonchaplain]

I believe that it is fear which leads to Bashing.

If other faiths are so afraid of missionaries stealing their members, they better learn to keep them happy. Bashing to make people fear and hate is not the Lords way.

This is a difficult topic, because I'm not the one being taught about. On the other hand, to call all such efforts hate-mongering, bashing, etc. just seems to me to be ignoring all nuance. Also, even within the general Christian family, it is considered poor form to go about "sheep stealing."

As a side note to any willing to consider other than malevalent motives for those who "teach against" other religions, remember our theological difference about salvation and the kingdom of God.

Mormons believe most decent people will get into some type of reward, and that sincerely religious people will likely get to spend eternity with Jesus in the Terrestial Kingdom. Thus, once a missionary, or even a Mormon acquaintance hears that the perspective investigator is, in fact, a happy member of a traditional Christian church, there's not much pressure to pursue a conversion. "Take the blessings we have, or be satisfied with where you're at. It's all good."

Many conservative Christians believe that JS was a false prophet, that Charles Taze Russell was also spiritually deceived, and that both LDS and JW are members of movements that are so heterodox that hell is a very real possiblity. Thus, to leave the poor soul on the wide road that leads to destruction would be an abominable neglect. Better to risk offense by offering an aggressive presentation of "the true way to salvation."

Again, I know there are some who enjoy the argument, "the bashing," and the sensationalism of tearing others down. God will judge the reality of their faith. But at least some who would attempt to convert Mormons (to traditional Christianity) are sincere, whether you believe them misguided or not.