Courtship lengths

[Backroads]

This is something I've noticed in Mormon culture. My own courtship was about six months, and some people were wondering why it was so long. Then I see all these people who court for about a week before the engagement (I kid you not) and wind up having marriages that last decades (while others fail...)

Why do you think this trend exists?

[Soulsearcher]

This is something I've noticed in Mormon culture. My own courtship was about six months, and some people were wondering why it was so long. Then I see all these people who court for about a week before the engagement (I kid you not) and wind up having marriages that last decades (while others fail...)

Why do you think this trend exists?

I know for some I've talked to it's based on the Law of Chastity. Much harder to break the law if you meet, and get married quickly rather than drawing it out. Also with hearing the counsel that any two worthy people can make a marriage work, why get to know the person, it's not that important, just get married so you are in the clear and try to build your life.

[Backroads]

I know for some I've talked to it's based on the Law of Chastity. Much harder to break the law if you meet, and get married quickly rather than drawing it out. Also with hearing the counsel that any two worthy people can make a marriage work, why get to know the person, it's not that important, just get married so you are in the clear and try to build your life.

Now I actually do believe there is something to making a relationship work and not completely relying on fate and destiny, but it's probably easier to make that work when you are compatible with someone. There's also the fact that marrying for love is a relatively recent thing in human history...

I'm still trying to decide how I feel about my sixth month courtship... I always thought I would be dating someone longer (Then again, for the past eight years I begin dating people immediately looking for marriage potential and compatibility and tend to weed out people within a month of dating). I've heard the rule of thumb should be at least a year between beginning of dating and marriage, but I have neighbors who have been very happily married for forty years who married a month after meeting. There's also people who divorce despite having dated for years.

I am also trying to find evidence that proves a one or the other is best, though I personall lean toward a longer courtship period.

[slamjet]

Mine was a 5 month courtship. We'd still be married, if only I wasn't such an, well, keep it clean, JERK! But we're still good friends. Go figure.

[Wingnut]

I know for some I've talked to it's based on the Law of Chastity. Much harder to break the law if you meet, and get married quickly rather than drawing it out.

I think there's some truth to that.

Also with hearing the counsel that any two worthy people can make a marriage work, why get to know the person, it's not that important, just get married so you are in the clear and try to build your life.

I think this sounds pretty bitter, actually, and knowing a little about your background, I can understand that. I really don't think there's actually a whole lot of this mindset in LDS culture. This is one of those things that people say to others, but never to themselves.

I think there's something else that hasn't yet been touched on. Marriage and family are the most fundamental units of the Church. They are at the core of the Gospel. They are very important to LDS, both doctrinally and culturally. Once you've prayed about your significant other and received a positive answer, or have otherwise made the decision to marry them, and it's a mutual decision, why wait? I think that's the biggest thing...what's the point in waiting? Why postpone eternity?

(Note: I'm not necessarily saying this is my own opinion on the matter, but that it's a common one.)

[hordak]

I know for some I've talked to it's based on the Law of Chastity. Much harder to break the law if you meet, and get married quickly rather than drawing it out. .

Think there is some truth to this. But i know some who had no issues breaking the law of chastity and still had a very short courtship.

I think the important thing is not so much the length but getting past the "honeymoon" stage. The infatuation when nothing the other does can be wrong.Need to get to the point when you can accept/embrace/ or at least tolerate the faults of the other and still want to spend life with them. For some that may take years, for others mere months.

[Guest]

Now I actually do believe there is something to making a relationship work and not completely relying on fate and destiny, but it's probably easier to make that work when you are compatible with someone. There's also the fact that marrying for love is a relatively recent thing in human history...

I'm still trying to decide how I feel about my sixth month courtship... I always thought I would be dating someone longer (Then again, for the past eight years I begin dating people immediately looking for marriage potential and compatibility and tend to weed out people within a month of dating). I've heard the rule of thumb should be at least a year between beginning of dating and marriage, but I have neighbors who have been very happily married for forty years who married a month after meeting. There's also people who divorce despite having dated for years.

I am also trying to find evidence that proves a one or the other is best, though I personall lean toward a longer courtship period.

The length of the courtship is not as important as the length of friendship in my book.

Courtship is when you try to impress the girl and vice versa. Friendship is when you see the person in all his/her worst and you decide yeah, you can live with that.

I wouldn't trust a courtship - whether it be 6 days or 6 years...

[Guest mormonmusic]

I agree that the prospect of physical intimacy tends to push things along a bit quicker. Also, a lot of people put a lot of emphasis on activity, whether a mission was served, righteous living, temple worthiness and such, which narrows the pool significantly. When people find these things it can seem like a goldmine.

[Jenamarie]

This is something I've noticed in Mormon culture. My own courtship was about six months, and some people were wondering why it was so long. Then I see all these people who court for about a week before the engagement (I kid you not) and wind up having marriages that last decades (while others fail...)

Why do you think this trend exists?

The bolded would be me. My hubby and I met, dated, and were engaged a week and a half after meeting, then had a six month engagement. (although we haven't been married for decades yet, we'll hit our 10 year mark in May of 2012) What it all boiled down to in our situation was Personal Revelation. Both of us went through experiences, prior to our meeting, that put us both in a place where we knew what we wanted, and what we would and wouldn't settle for, and those things happened to match for us. Both of us had thoughts of marriage pretty early on (duh ) and so we fasted and prayed about getting married, and both got that confirmation. I doubt it would have happened so quickly if we hadn't turned it over to the Lord so soon.

[mrmarklin]

Personally I think at least a year to get to know one another is a minimum. That gives both of you a "life cycle" in seeing each others attitude during holidays, vacations, work habits and times of stress. It also allows eaach person a chance to get to know the family of the other, assuming reasonable proximity. Actually if there is no reasonable proximity, it should be made.

I did this, an so far almost 40 years, and we still had a lot of teething problems so to speak.

[ryanh]

Also with hearing the counsel that any two worthy people can make a marriage work

Do you have a reference for that counsel Soul? I haven't seen that one, and that is not quite consistent with statements on the subject I have read.

. . . yet it is certain that almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price. President Spencer W. Kimball

almost any and if both are willing to pay the price That is a good bit different in my mind than the connotation of 'any two worthy'. There is a whole lot more involved in it than worthiness. There is 'goodness' (i.e. capability), and willingness to sacrifice and pay the price necessary on both persons' parts.

I think the important thing is not so much the length but getting past the "honeymoon" stage. The infatuation when nothing the other does can be wrong.Need to get to the point when you can accept/embrace/ or at least tolerate the faults of the other and still want to spend life with them. For some that may take years, for others mere months.

I strongly second Hordak's thoughts. Time isn't so much the factor as it is the tenor of the interactions.

Heavenly Father can and will confirm/deny our decision as right/wrong, but first, just as Oliver learned in D&C 9, we must study it out in our minds to come to a decision first. And one is not in a good place to make a decision when in that infatuation stage, and not experiencing 'real life' with the potential spouse.

Short of that, I think the decision is in essence a crap shoot. We may think we are making a good and rational decision, but it isn't based on reality - just emotion that will change over time.

Edited December 21, 2010 by ryanh

[Guest]

Do you have a reference for that counsel Soul? I haven't seen that one, and that is not quite consistent with statements on the subject I have read.

almost any and if both are willing to pay the price That is a good bit different in my mind than the connotation of 'any two worthy'. There is a whole lot more involved in it than worthiness. There is 'goodness' (i.e. capability), and willingness to sacrifice and pay the price necessary on both persons' parts.

I agree with Soul's quote ryanh. Any two WORTHY couple can make a marriage work. Being worthy and being willing to pay the price is one and the same. You can't be worthy if you are not willing to take up His cross and follow Him. When BOTH are worthy and remain true to the gospel - with eyes single to the Glory of God and living Christlike charity, the marriage follows.

Edited December 21, 2010 by anatess

[ryanh]

Well, that's fine for you. However I prefer to base my understanding of successful eternal marriage on the counsel of Prophets and Apostles rather than personal pontifications on the internet.

I know of individuals that are "worthy" (what does that even mean? so general that it can't be defined) to enter the temple, have a recommend and all, but would make lousy marriage material. They simply don't have the skills, or the staying capacity.

[MarginOfError]

I think we're seeing a case of agreement but with different emphases. While it is true that almost any good man and woman could make a marriage work (insert conditions here), just because they could doesn't mean they should. Quite simply, why make it harder than it needs to be?

Another way of putting it...it's okay to turn down a marriage prospect if you think it's going to take too much effort to make it work.

[Wingnut]

Well, that's fine for you. However I prefer to base my understanding of successful eternal marriage on the counsel of Prophets and Apostles rather than personal pontifications on the internet.

Good. The quote come from President Kimball.

… “Soul mates” are fiction and an illusion; and while every young man and young woman will seek with all diligence and prayerfulness to find a mate with whom life can be most compatible and beautiful, yet it is certain that almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price. …

Source

[Guest]

Well, that's fine for you. However I prefer to base my understanding of successful eternal marriage on the counsel of Prophets and Apostles rather than personal pontifications on the internet.

I know of individuals that are "worthy" (what does that even mean? so general that it can't be defined) to enter the temple, have a recommend and all, but would make lousy marriage material. They simply don't have the skills, or the staying capacity.

I must have misunderstood. I thought Soul was quoting a Prophet when he wrote the "any two worthy couple" bit.

Worthy is not what WE think it means. Worthy is what God says it means.

I'm basing my principles on experiences. I grew up in the Philippines where divorce is illegal. The concept is similar to the "any two worthy couple" thing... basically, if two people feel strongly about each other to decide to marry, they basically made a contract to reconcile all differences. You can't go back later on and say, woops, I shouldn't have made that contract... I can't live with him after all. Yeah, try that with your bank loan...

In case of undeclared mental illess or shotgun wedding (with or without child - usually happens when the dad finds out the daughter got intimate with another guy so he puts a gun to the guy's head to force him to marry the girl), etc - those makes the contract invalid - signing a contract through illegal means make the contract null and void. So the marriage is annulled and you are free to marry another person.

In cases of abuse, there is legal separation - the court distributes the property or equivalent value to each party as it sees fit, the children go to the non-abuser. There's no such thing as joint-custody. There's no child support/alimony either. All joint ownership is split - joint bank accounts are split, joint debt is split, etc. Then each one is free to lead their own lives completely separate from the other. But, nobody can remarry.

Edited December 21, 2010 by anatess

[Wingnut]

I must have misunderstood. I thought Soul was quoting a Prophet when he wrote the "any two worthy couple" bit.

He was. Paraphrasing anyway. See my post above.

[ryanh]

Wing, I'm not following you. I asked Soul about where "any two worthy people" came from. I provided the relevant part of Kimball's quote which you so kindly provided a link to. I still don't see in Kimball's quote "any two worthy people". The connotations of "almost any good" is different, esp when taken in context of other comments by President Kimball on the subject.

The problem I see is that too many are ready to paraphrase quote into a meaning that carry connotations not intended. "Any two worthy people" is something I have heard referenced a number of times. Repeated often enough, LDS begin to think that take two people with temple recommends of the opposite gender, throw them together, and it will work out. Thus, you get courtships that are extremely short, and not at all reasoned out as we are instructed is proper and appropriate (let alone simple common sense!).

Even two very good and 'worthy' people may make give it a try, but a lack of maturity may sink them before they are capable of establishing a sound relationship. We just had a potential case in the making on here within the past week where, fortunately, the young man called off the sealing. Both appeared to be good and 'worthy' (presumably they had their recommends already from the way it was talked about), however it was clear to many that the union had some serious challenges to overcome, and may very well have been DOA.

There is too much aggrandizing of the statements of leaders into forms that lead some to think they can just hook up with anyone that is cute and holds a recommend and "it will all work out if we just persevere and have faith". It is not so. Poor decisions usually lead to poor results. Marriage decisions even more so!

On the issue of timing of courtships, and another LDS myth is that RM's are to get married quickly. Often the term of 6 months is thrown out there. I've seen it referenced here on .net (without citation of course, because it doesn't exist!) President Monson said in 2004:

I should like to dispel one rumor that is very hard to put to rest. I know of no mission president in all the world who has ever told a missionary that he had the responsibility to marry within six months after his mission. I think that rumor was commenced by a returned missionary, and if not by a returned missionary, by the girlfriend of a returned missionary.

I have been perusing many articles on LDS.org and byu.edu in regards to marriage decisions and courtship timing. The ideas that LDS can just choose "any worthy" person, or that there is any push by leadership for speedy courtships is false. It is my opinion that propagating these ideas is one way the adversary is undermining the family from within.

[Wingnut]

Wing, I'm not following you. I asked Soul about where "any two worthy people" came from. I provided the relevant part of Kimball's quote which you so kindly provided a link to. I still don't see in Kimball's quote "any two worthy people". The connotations of "almost any good" is different, esp when taken in context of other comments by President Kimball on the subject.

It's called paraphrasing. That, and not knowing the exact wording. I'm pretty sure that the quote I provided is what Soul was referring to. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Backroads]

Wing, I'm not following you. I asked Soul about where "any two worthy people" came I have been perusing many articles on LDS.org and byu.edu in regards to marriage decisions and courtship timing. The ideas that LDS can just choose "any worthy" person, or that there is any push by leadership for speedy courtships is false. It is my opinion that propagating these ideas is one way the adversary is undermining the family from within.

Out of curiosity, do you have an availabe link to any of these articles?

Reading this and then dragging out my prior opinions, I like to think a good relationship is what I consider presented in the movie Enchanted. The movie presents two different ideals: insta-commitment and dating someone for years and years and years in order to make sure they are absolutely right and no problems will arise. The movie suggests there should be both: a willingness to commit and work against problems as well as an intelligent observation of a good fit.

I think the church wants us very much to commit to making a relationship work, but I really think "Oh, marry anyone!" philosophy isn't the best idea.

[Soulsearcher]

Wing has found the quote, but it's not even so much that quote, it's more what i hear from members who butcher the intent behind the quote. I've been told love isn't important in marriage. Been told just ot marry and hope it will work out because attraction and a loving bond is silly and not at all what marriage is based on. I've heard some members dish out a lot of stuff that just doesn't seem to be quite right, yet to disagree i get told "well the prophets say" and i just finally take their words and present them with the spirit presented to me.....funny some members respond with the same confusion i did.

[Backroads]

Wing has found the quote, but it's not even so much that quote, it's more what i hear from members who butcher the intent behind the quote. I've been told love isn't important in marriage. Been told just ot marry and hope it will work out because attraction and a loving bond is silly and not at all what marriage is based on. I've heard some members dish out a lot of stuff that just doesn't seem to be quite right, yet to disagree i get told "well the prophets say" and i just finally take their words and present them with the spirit presented to me.....funny some members respond with the same confusion i did.

Well, a marriage can't survive on goofy twitterpation alone, but a loving bond being silly? Goodness, who wants to be married someone to whom they have no feelings toward? I'm shocked people would say to hope it works out without affection.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Backroads

[ryanh]

Wing has found the quote, but it's not even so much that quote, it's more what i hear from members who butcher the intent behind the quote. I've been told love isn't important in marriage. Been told just ot marry and hope it will work out because attraction and a loving bond is silly and not at all what marriage is based on. I've heard some members dish out a lot of stuff that just doesn't seem to be quite right, yet to disagree i get told "well the prophets say" and i just finally take their words and present them with the spirit presented to me.....funny some members respond with the same confusion i did.

Well, I sure hope it's not so much that quote, because it doesn't at all say "any two worthy people". If you feel that people butcher the intent behind the quote, why on earth would you perpetuate it?

[ryanh]

Out of curiosity, do you have an availabe link to any of these articles?

I have printed most of them, and do not have them with me, so it would take quite a bit of effort to reproduce them.

The one that I have with me today that I was reading while on the train (and is a good article worth reading) is: Choosing and Being the Right Spouse

If you go to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and BYU Speeches Website you can search to your heart's delight. You might even check BYUtv - Home where you can search Education Week talks where the topic of selection of marriage partners is sometimes discussed.

[Guest]

Wing has found the quote, but it's not even so much that quote, it's more what i hear from members who butcher the intent behind the quote. I've been told love isn't important in marriage. Been told just ot marry and hope it will work out because attraction and a loving bond is silly and not at all what marriage is based on. I've heard some members dish out a lot of stuff that just doesn't seem to be quite right, yet to disagree i get told "well the prophets say" and i just finally take their words and present them with the spirit presented to me.....funny some members respond with the same confusion i did.

Love isn't important in a marriage? WHAT?

Love is important in ANY relationship - it's the greatest commandment, remember? And that includes your relationship with your enemy!

That's the thing - people say Love and do not quite understand what that means.

Butterflies in the stomach, giddy giggly, knees turn to jelly - is that Love?

Writing his name 125 times a day on your journal coupled with 125 times of your name with his lastname - is that Love?

Thinking about him all day, can't concentrate on anything, has to talk to him every 5 minutes, obsession so deep your work is declining, your grades are failing - is that Love?

Liking the same movies, eating the same food, laughing at the same jokes - is that Love?

Wanting to touch him all the time, kissing, petting, getting all hot and bothered - is that Love?

You know what Love is? Dying on the cross. That's Love.