Pornography - Who is it a sin against?

[quickquestion]

There are some sins that are clearly a sin against another person, such as stealing and murder. And there are also sins that are a sin against God and not necessarily against another person, sins like pride and idolatry.

So what about the sin of viewing pornography? Is that a sin against God alone or is it also a sin against another?

Does that change if you're single vs. if you're married? If you're married, does that sin become a sin against your spouse? Or does it still remain between you and God? What about if you've received your endowments and made special covenants? Obviously that would make the sin more grievous and severe but does it change who the sin is against?

Just something I've thought about recently and would love to hear some other opinions on the matter.

Thanks!

[Honor]

Every commandment is a protection for US. The consequences of our sins can impact those around us (especially with the nature of pornography) but I believe the most important reason for the commandment is for our personal spiritual protection.

[IAmTheWork]

Hi quickquestion. I posted something about porn not long ago, but have to get off now to catch a film on TV. Try the search, as there are a few threads on the topic.

[captmoroniRM]

It seems like I'm saying this a lot on here lately, but does it really matter who the sin is technically against? The Lord has said he cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, and has commanded us to repent of all our sins. Sure some sins impact others around us more than others, but they are always offensive to God. Our priority should be to obtaining God's forgiveness. Often the repentance process involves seeking the forgiveness of those we've hurt because of our actions, such as a spouse who may be hurt by one's use of pornography.

[Traveler]

Every commandment is a protection for US. The consequences of our sins can impact those around us (especially with the nature of pornography) but I believe the most important reason for the commandment is for our personal spiritual protection.

I completely agree. The worse of sin is what it does to the sinner. The atonement of Christ fixes everything else so that the effect on others is taken care of through the mercy of G-d. The reason for repentance is to fix the part of self that G-d cannot fix on his own. This is why not forgiving others is so bad. They may deserve not to be forgiven and they may never repent but not forgiving others damages the person that cannot forgive and not even all the powers of the atonement can rectify the damage - it can only be fixed from within us by us working with G-d unto repentance before the powers of G-d can work within us to bring relief and freedom.

The Traveler

[IAmTheWork]

So what about the sin of viewing pornography? Is that a sin against God alone or is it also a sin against another?

Ok, a bit more of an answer now I've watched my film.

Well I'd say let's not concern ourselves with the word 'sin', which, let's face it, most people can't define very well but do feel starchy and prissy about. Let's talk about the effects of viewing porn.

First, as the viewer, you're looking at something false. False, false, and if that doesn't say it enough; false. Recordings and pictures of men and women who's addiction to physical pleasures makes them easy meat for money makers (because they sure don't make millions) and puts them in harm's way continually. They're meat. They're seen as meat, and they're treated as meat. End of story. Do words and terms such as hepatitis, chlamydia, HIV, gonorrhoea, abortion, infertility, loneliness, abuse and so on mean nothing?

So, you ask, where is the sin? Sheesh, you do sound naive. How about the sin of the ones giving themselves up as mere meat for money, the ones treating them as meat for money, you watching them as meat and paying money (or watching people being treated as meat for money - which is worse..?) and so on. How about all involved having parents who are gods, yet not seeing it due to the lives they lead, and all the other low life types who also 'make a living' as hangers-on..? I kind of run out of ideas at this point because I just don't want to go down disgusting avenues in my mind. But as a couple of other thoughts, I read that those involved in adult porn are also into child porn and drug running. Basically, users and abusers of others on every level you can think of.

Phew. What was the original question..?

Never mind whether it's 'sin'. It sucks and stinks on every level you can name in human terms, and if gods were so affected by us as to feel pain from what we do, they'd sit and sob every moment of their existence. But they aren't, though they advise us about which directions to take because they've been there before us.

Edit: Apologies if some of the above sounds overly harsh (esp. the naive bit, @quickquestion). I've known people who were emotionally scarred by involvement in porn and drugs, and even years later they seemed no more recovered from it all.

Edited January 3, 2011 by IAmTheWork
Told myself to calm down!

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

There are some sins that are clearly a sin against another person, such as stealing and murder. And there are also sins that are a sin against God and not necessarily against another person, sins like pride and idolatry.

So what about the sin of viewing pornography? Is that a sin against God alone or is it also a sin against another?

Does that change if you're single vs. if you're married? If you're married, does that sin become a sin against your spouse? Or does it still remain between you and God? What about if you've received your endowments and made special covenants? Obviously that would make the sin more grievous and severe but does it change who the sin is against?

Just something I've thought about recently and would love to hear some other opinions on the matter.

Thanks!

Pornography is essentially viewing pictures or films that depict the act of sexual gratification. Here is a question, would you look through your neighbor's window and watch them having sexual intercourse? Most likely not (unless you are that depraved).

The reason I ask this question is because that is essentially what you are doing. Granted, the Porn industry is one of the fastest (and most lucrative) industries in our culture.

One can't say that viewing the naked human body as being pornographic unless one is willing to say that they refuse to go to the Art Museum where there are classic art pieces that are of the naked body (Archaeological Artificats depicting naked women, National Geographic pictures of native cultures where women naturally are naked because of custom and culture relevant to that particular area of humanity).

There are some who struggle with pornography where they can't even look at catalogues or advertisements where a woman is dressed in bra, lingere or the like. This is because the temptation is too much for them.

The ultimate goal of true pornography is to fulfill sexual fantasies and sexual gratification.

In the marital context, the viewing of pornography hurts the spouse because in this sense, the person participating in the viewing of pornography is essentially "fantasizing" about other women and (in some cases) attempts to live out those "fantasies" vicariously through his/her spouse. The threat pornography has on the marriage as well is that of "infidelity" because the person addicted to pornography is trading the sexual intimacy they would have with their spouse for that of what they are viewing (magazine, internet, movies, et all).

Pornography also has various levels. Soft Porn (which is most R- Rated movies), then there is Hard Porn, Bondage S/M, and it goes further and further into deeper depasement - including Child Pornography, Rape, Incest, Homosexual Activity and Behavior, Experimenting, and other such sexual activities that I will not even bother mentioning.

Like most addictions, Pornography drags a person deeper and deeper into the depths of depravity. The previous no longer becomes satisfying and they go deeper into finding that gratification - the "First High" (And yes, Sexual Intimacy does give their partner's a certain "High").

Here is an excerpt of why Pornography is a problem in our society today:

How Is Porn a Problem?

There have been many heated discussions concerning the benefits vs. the harm

of pornography. Cases have been heard on the subject all the way to the U.S.

Supreme Court.

The first anti-porn ordinance to be enacted in the U.S. was in Indianapolis in

1984. The Indianapolis Anti-Porn Ordinance of 1984 defined pornography as

anything that “presents women as sexual objects, as enjoying pain, injury,

debasement.” It also identified as pornography material that depicts women in

“scenarios of degradation, humiliation, or torture” and as “filthy or inferior,

bleeding, bruised, humiliation or rape, or as being physically harmed or hurt in a

context that makes these conditions sexual.” (Indianapolis Anti-Porn Ordinance

of 1984)

The American Booksellers Association fought this ordinance all the way to the

U.S. Court of Appeals where it was defeated on August 27, 1985.

Anti-porn ordinances have been attempted throughout the country with very little

or no success since then. The issues of censorship and massive profits always

trump degrading, marketing and abusing women and children.

The porn industry is a multi-billion dollar business: $10 billion in the U.S. and

$57 billion worldwide annually. The spread of these products has actually

increased over the last twenty years thanks to the invention and proliferation of

home video and DVD players, cable and satellite television, and last but not

least, the Internet.

Porn video rentals bring in $800 million in profit each year in the U.S. alone.

There are more “adult” bookstores in the U.S. than there are McDonald’s (5).

Pornography turns a larger profit than the conventional film and music industries

combined (6).

We’re definitely talking BIG business.

But, does porn cause sexual violence or more specifically rape and child

molestation? There is no consensus on this question. Some research says “no”

and some says “yes.” However, there are several points on which nearly all the

research currently agrees:

Pornography appears to lead some men to experience conflict, suffering and

sexual dissatisfaction with their partner (7);

Violent depictions are highly likely to lead to calloused attitudes toward rape

and rape victims (8);

Convicted rapists are highly likely to have used porn to ramp themselves up

before attacking their victim (9);

77-100% of child molesters and pedophiles consume porn regularly (10);

Hypersexualized people have insatiable appetites for porn (11);

Rape rates are higher in the countries where porn is readily available (12);

Male consumers of porn tend to be more aggressive toward women (13); and

Exposure to porn appears to increase the use of sexual coercion (14) and

increases fantasies of rape (15); and massive exposure to porn encourages a

desire for increasingly deviant materials including sadomasochism, rape,

torture, and “snuff” films (videos where the woman is brutalized and then

murdered) (16).

Nonetheless, there is no direct statistical correlation which conclusively proves

that pornography causes rape and child molestation. There may never be. There is no ethical way to isolate test subjects, bombard them with porn and then set

them loose and see what happens. More rape & domestic batteries have occurred than people have eaten at McDonald’s; maybe what we need is a billboard.

Hopefully that answers your question as to why Pornography poses a problem in our society today.

[Dr T]

I agree with honor Honor but would ultimately say the sin is against God.

[NeuroTypical]

Something to think about - every bit of porn out there is connected to a soul - one of our siblings who kept their first estate - someone with a divine nature.

And if you want to see an industry peopled by tortured and troubled souls, it's the porn industry. It's closely associated with the child prostitution/slavery industry the drug trade, and organized crime. If you ever get the chance to someone in the industry, ask them for some of the more horrible stories that they've experienced, witnessed firsthand, or heard about.

Just remember to ask them to stop before you lose your lunch. Makeup and good lighting hides a lot. You fork over a buck for that, you're sinning against more than just God.

LM

[bytebear]

It's like a drug. The more you use, the more you need to get the same gratification. Very quickly, love and romance become impossible to have in a real life relationship, and you will never find a spouse who can compete with your numbed urges. If you truly want a lusty long lasting sex life, stay away from promiscuity and pornography. Believe me, romance with one committed partner over a lifetime is far more fulfilling than fantasy sex with a string of anonymous partners who you can't even touch. You want your legs to buckle when she holds your hand. Keep the excitement alive. Pornography deadens the senses.

[IAmTheWork]

It's like a drug. The more you use, the more you need to get the same gratification.

Yep, for sure. The tragic thing most people don't realise when they think their own porn viewing habit is 'mild', ie., they're not into really nasty stuff, is that they're conditioning themselves to need it. I mentioned this in another post somewhere, but essentially, any actions you repeat again and again conditions both your mind and your body not only to feel that it's normal, but to want more of the same.

Such mental and physical self-programming desensitises the one doing it, so they need more stimulation to get the same effects of arousal. And sadly, the effect doesn't come from the real thing, so someone who's hooked themselves on porn can't become aroused by their naked partner in the normal way, because the brain wants to see pictures of naked people, and usually different ones, over and over.

Believe me, romance with one committed partner over a lifetime is far more fulfilling than fantasy sex with a string of anonymous partners who you can't even touch. You want your legs to buckle when she holds your hand.

I like that - made me smile. :) It's so true!

What's interesting, to me at least, is that commandments are so often give and/or written just 'as is'. Probably because if we had more explanations there'd have to be whole books dedicated to each one. I hope young guys and girls read these forums though, as well as others offering genuine advice which is often gained by experience, and realise that behind the admonitions are very good reasons why we're told, "Don't do that!"

Slightly OT I suppose, but do most Mormon parents really talk to their children about sexual matters these days, or does it tend to get brushed under the carpet..?

[Backroads]

I've seen comments of people who defend their porn habits. They say they aren't doing anything harmful, they're contributing to the economy, it's their choice, they're mature adults who don't get into any child porn or anything else illegal. Some say it's part of their marriage/relationship and that both partners are involved, that it gets them excited, that it's part of their sex life and about being a healthy adult.

Now I will be willing to grant that such things can be "not that bad" within MODERATION. I'm sure there are many fine people who participate in a little bit of porn now and then who live great, successful lives and have many healthy relationships.

And yet, like so many other addictive things, what happens when the moderation goal fails?

The worst case I've personally seen was with a woman who married a man after several years of dating him. From the beginning of the marriage, he wanted nothing sexual to do with his wife. Turned out he was into pornography, and as much as he loved her, pornography was ALWAYS going to be better than her. It's unfaithful.

A husband and wife are supposed to come together, to be one. Pornography interferes with that. And in the claim that it improves their sex life, it might for a while, until one or both partners start expecting more of each other and the other is unable to meet that expectation.

[Backroads]

Slightly OT I suppose, but do most Mormon parents really talk to their children about sexual matters these days, or does it tend to get brushed under the carpet..?

...Mine did. I guess I can't speak for the general population, though. My parents started us early on. Frankly, I think it's best parents give the information, from sex ed to issues like this. Don't get me wrong, I highly support in-school sex ed, but if parents wants their children to understand their morals and views on certain matters, they should speak up.

[IAmTheWork]

Mine did.

Good for you! In the ward I was in some years ago, there was an awful lot of prissiness and obvious distaste regarding many moral topics, and sex in particular. Though something hilarious happened with a friend of mine who taught her younger daughter 'the whole deal' after much talk in their home. I think the girl was ten years old, but pretty mature for her age (ten going on twenty-five, as people say).

The mother explained carefully what it was all about, and that all couples did it naturally, etc. The girl sat in silence for a moment, and the mother thought she'd embarrassed her. The girl was actually doing a lot of imagining, as she said, "You mean Bro. and Sis. Jones do? And the bishop and his wife..? And - oh no - everyone at church..?!" She was mortified, and barely looked an adult in the eyes for days!

[Backroads]

I would dare say it has less to do with the religion of the parents and more about the personality of the parents themselves.

[IAmTheWork]

I would dare say it has less to do with the religion of the parents and more about the personality of the parents themselves.

If you mean the prissiness, it was not just the ward, but the whole stake. Maybe it was just England at the time. There has to be a reason someone made a film called "No Sex Please, We're British"!

[quickquestion]

Thanks for all of your responses. However, it looks like my post was misunderstood by pretty much everyone. I am in no way asking "is viewing porn a sin?". I know very well how evil it is and that is it a terrible, wicked thing. I'm not trying to argue whether or not it is wrong or who it hurts... I know very well how wrong it is, I was only trying to gather opinions on who the sin is against.

The reason being... knowing who a sin is against is essential in making reparations for that sin and will allow you to do all you can in repenting of that sin. It's difficult to repent of a sin and receive complete forgiveness if you don't know who've you've sinned against therefore not allowing you to do all you can to "fix" the hurt that you've caused.

Does that make more sense?

[Backroads]

Sin against God as He commanded the Law of Chastity.

Sin against significant other as I consider it being unfaithful.

Sin against yourself when it becomes an addiction.

[mnn727]

Its a sin against yourself and you spouse.

First you are cheating on your spouse by giving what is his/hers to porn

Second you are setting yourself up to be unsatisfied with your spose (or future spouse) because they are not 'perfect' like the images you saw (which are ususally younger people, air-brushed or photoshopped and normally have spent a long time applying makeup, etc)

Compare your wife who has has 2 or 3 kids and is in her mid 30's to that 19 year old body you are lusting for on the internet porn site. Are you interested in the body or in the person? Compare your 30 or 40 year old body (if male) against that 20 year old guy with his clothes off -- do you look like that?

You are setting yourself up to sin against yourself and your spouse if you view porn, because you'll not be satisfied with their real body when you can go online and see all the 'hotties' there, at best you'll be fantasizing about teh hotties and thus not be "two becoming as one" when you make love and at worst (and this happens) you'll stop wanting to make love to your spouse because they will no longer excite you.

That's Real

[captmoroniRM]

Again, while it may impact those around you negatively, it is requisite that we reconcile ourselves with God because we have sinned against him. No matter how much one reconciles an addiction to pornography with one's spouse, the sin is ultimately against God.

There is a huge different in how understanding this will strengthen someone who is fighting against such sins. If a person is only trying to overcome an addiction to pornography because it is hurting the spouse or the relationship, while noble the intentions may be, do not qualify as godly sorrow.

Godly sorrow is a much more powerful than sorrow for hurting one's spouse. It is the realization that one's actions have offended the Almighty. It is a realization that humbles one beneath the dust, and instills a true change of heart and desire to turn away from the sin. It makes them want to change and seek the healing power of Gilead's balm!

[NeuroTypical]

Sin against God as He commanded the Law of Chastity.

Sin against significant other as I consider it being unfaithful.

Sin against yourself when it becomes an addiction.

And don't forget sin against the person you were viewing, for reasons stated in my earlier post.

[GeneC]

It's a sin against your Spirit.

[hordak]

Not trying to defend porn but i take issue the idea one can sin against a future spouse who may or may not come along.

Can looking at porn lead to unrealistic expectations that can't be meet or kept up in the real world as time goes on? Yes. But so can dating.

An 18 year old get's "hooked" on porn.He loves they the way it makes him feel. At 20 he kicks the habit and get's married. 10 years later he wakes up one morning to discover his hot svelt 20 year old wife has turned into a mother of 4 with the limitations physically that come with it. The physical perfection he put a lot of stock in is no more.

An 18 year old girl goes to BYU. Return missionaries are throwing themselves at her, going out on fun dates 5 nights a week. She loves the the way it makes her feel. At 20 she culls the herd and get's married. 10 years later

she wakes up to discover her fun adventurous 20 year old husband has turned into a father of 4 with the financial limitations that come with it. The adventure and disposable income needed to support it she put so much stock in is gone.

What is the difference?

Viewing porn may have an effect, (even a negative one) on his future relationships, and family life. So might a million other things.

As a youth i was "commanded" to study hard and get good grades. I didn't. This hurt me, and my parent's the law givers. It also affects my family today. Had i done this i might have gotten a full ride to U of M, then Harvard Law, which would make my families financial situation better. Just because my actions affect them doesn't mean i wronged them.

Was cutting class a "sin" against my wife because the actions would "negatively" affect her 10 years later?

[Guest]

It's really simple in my point of view.

The sin is against God (as all sins are) and all of womankind.

Okay, the really crazy thing about this statement... NFL cheerleaders are guilty of the same sin. But, let's not hijack the thread.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Thanks for all of your responses. However, it looks like my post was misunderstood by pretty much everyone. I am in no way asking "is viewing porn a sin?". I know very well how evil it is and that is it a terrible, wicked thing. I'm not trying to argue whether or not it is wrong or who it hurts... I know very well how wrong it is, I was only trying to gather opinions on who the sin is against.

The reason being... knowing who a sin is against is essential in making reparations for that sin and will allow you to do all you can in repenting of that sin. It's difficult to repent of a sin and receive complete forgiveness if you don't know who've you've sinned against therefore not allowing you to do all you can to "fix" the hurt that you've caused.

Does that make more sense?

1. It's a sin against God.

God has given us commandments, and the consequences for each are a good sign of how serious it is when you break one of them. Also what is required to make full and complete restitution establishes how serious it is. In my observation, God is most concerned with how we come into this life, and how we leave it. Why? look at how serious both areas are by using the two elements I mentioned above. In the Law of Moses, murder and sexual sin were both punished by death.

Why are they such a big deal? Because full recompense is impossible to complete. With murder you cannot restore one to life. What you have taken by your own power cannot be returned by your own power. Now imagine all the varieties of sexual sin. Name one of them you would be able to fully repent of and give full recompense. This leads to the second point I have.

2. It's a sin against yourself.

God has given us a precious gift by way of our capacity to procreate. I have often heard it described as a gift from God to share in the creative process He initiated as stated in Genesis. The enjoyment we recieve from sex as married couples is part of the gift, but not the main point. The main point is to use this most precious gift from God to further His will.

Pornography totally steps aside from the main point and focuses on the pleasure only. It uses an intentional part of the gift to make you forget about the whole purpose of our having it, and also to forget about God. All pornography does is make you focus on you...what you like to see, what you like to feel, what you like to fantasize about. There is no room for selfishness in God's will, yet there is little room for anything else in pornography.

By doing this, pornography not only dulls you sexually, it dulls you spiritually. It fills your mind with images that are next to impossible to remove. With such images in your mind, how can you think on spiritual things? How can you give room for the Holy Ghost to speak in your heart and soul when your heart and soul are thinking about Ms. May? This brings me to my third, and final point.

2. It is a sin against women in general...all of whom are your spiritual sisters.

Think about it....when God commanded Samuel to find a king to replace the disobedient Saul, what was the great lesson? God looks not on the appearance for his elect, but on the heart. What does pornography do? Exactly the opposite. Name someone who reads Playboy for the model's chicken dinner recipies, or what their major is in college. Pornography focuses your attention on the looks, and nothing but the looks.

Think about this...an entire industry built to draw people's attention to the absolute least important quality a person could ever have in this life from God's perspective. It makes women nothing more than objects of personal gratification. Indulged in long enough, and a constant consumer of pornography will be unable to see any women in any other way than how 'hot' they are. It is the ultimate degradation, the final insult to God's very daughters.

The only other way to look at this is to ask the question, what good does pornography do for anyone that they could not have gotten through other means? I cannot think of any, regardless of which side a given person is on, consumer or producer. There is nothing positive about it, nor is there anything 'healthy' about it in any way.

It is a perversion of the single greatest responsability God has ever placed in our hands; bringing our fellow brothers and sisters into this life, and teaching them how to live according to the will of a God they have no memory of.

Posts following mine have reminded me that pornography impacts men and women in the same way. While I am aware of this, I presented the issue from my perspective, and I'm a guy. I'm not going to go back through my whole post to say men/women repeatedly. I hope we can all treat this small fact as an assumed one.

Edited January 5, 2011 by RipplecutBuddha
spellification and fighting the P/C movement