Is the final judgment permanent?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Your concepts are mostly conjecture. Yes, much of it based upon the beliefs of various apostles, but still conjecture.

There is no absolute doctrine that states there is no progression between kingdoms. In fact, some apostles, like James Talmage, thought it may very well be possible. We just do not know.

Second, The Lord himself explained that he sometimes uses terminology to throw off people. D&C 19 explains that Endless Torment is God's Torment, for example. It allows those who are less spiritual to fear enough to be obedient, but those who are in the know can understand that Endless Torment does not last forever.

D&C 138 tells us that even the righteous will be taught gospel principles in the Spirit World, as well as the wicked. So, not only is this life the time to prepare, but so is the Spirit World. We just do not know how God will judge everything. What we do know is it is better to work on the side of caution, rather than take our chances with what will happen in the hereafter.

All we know for certain about David is that he has lost his exaltation. That does not mean he is only going to receive a telestial glory. Rather, it means he will gain at least a telestial glory. Given his repentance, etc., I personally believe he will gain at least the terrestrial kingdom. But then, God will be judge of it.

I think one of the biggest hang ups I have about the possibility of advancement from one kingdom to another is the fact that when we are resurrected we obtain a body in which we will never be separated from again. One body is that of the glory of the sun, the other the glory of the moon and the other the stars that vary as much as stars do. How is it that a "moon" will turn into a "sun" so to speak? If this is a permanent, 'never to be separated' again condition, I don't see how that is possible. Sure, during the Spirit World time there are things to be worked out but after the final judgment and specifically after we obtained our glorified bodies, I don't see how that could change from that moment on.

[rameumptom]

But that does not mean that body cannot change or progress. All prophets will tell you there is progression within a kingdom. In mortality, we are all born with the one body we have, yet it grows from infant to adult, our knowledge vastly increases, our physical capabilities advance, and we become ever more capable of taking care of not only ourselves, but others (children). Each stage of human development: infant, toddler, pre-teen, teenager, young adult, parent, grandparent, etc., is a major transition. Yet we do it all within one body.

There is a difference between Eternal progression (God's progression), and progressing eternally. It may be that those who right now only achieve lower kingdoms could eventually achieve the celestial, but not as exalted beings.

[Xecuter]

Honestly everyone, hyohko may not be in conformity with traditional mormon beliefs, but what he says has merit to it. Comments that restate the obvious as far as traditional mormon beliefs are concerned, "this live is the time to prepare to meet God, keeping your second estate, the same spirit that possess your body will continue with you to the next life," are known by most of us. What I believe hyohko is talking about in his fabulous conjecture is of possibility, not of certainty. We just don't know.

As stated in the April 2003 issue of the Ensign by James E Faust:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”8

A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent and “suffer for their sins” and “pay their debt to justice.” I recognize that now is the time “to prepare to meet God.”9 If the repentance of the wayward children does not happen in this life, is it still possible for the cords of the sealing to be strong enough for them yet to work out their repentance? In the Doctrine and Covenants we are told, “The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God

One can infer from this quote that full and complete repentance in the next life is possible and even plausible. As hyohko said, God doesn't always reveal eternal truths to us in their absolute form but adjusts them to meet our needs and circumstances that we as a people and individuals are found in.

[ryanh]

One can infer from this quote that full and complete repentance in the next life is possible and even plausible. As hyohko said, God doesn't always reveal eternal truths to us in their absolute form but adjusts them to meet our needs and circumstances that we as a people and individuals are found in.

One cannot take Elder Faust's quote (and other similar ones) to be applicable to post-judgment assignment of glory without ignoring other scripture and a multitude of contradictory quotes. In my mind, the most likely understanding is that Elder Faust is speaking of the space of time spoken of by Alma betwixt death and the resurrection.

[Seminarysnoozer]

But that does not mean that body cannot change or progress. All prophets will tell you there is progression within a kingdom. In mortality, we are all born with the one body we have, yet it grows from infant to adult, our knowledge vastly increases, our physical capabilities advance, and we become ever more capable of taking care of not only ourselves, but others (children). Each stage of human development: infant, toddler, pre-teen, teenager, young adult, parent, grandparent, etc., is a major transition. Yet we do it all within one body.

There is a difference between Eternal progression (God's progression), and progressing eternally. It may be that those who right now only achieve lower kingdoms could eventually achieve the celestial, but not as exalted beings.

In reality, our body declines fairly quickly in this life. We reach a peak at about the age of 25 or so in most aspects of function then there is a decline and slowing down. The only thing that continues to improve for a while but then also reaches a peak is vocabulary and language skills. Our memory and our processing speed also declines. I think this body is a poor example of a body that improves with time if you separate the spiritual development from the package.

[heatwaveo8]

Is the final judgment permanent? Meaning, if someone is consigned to the terrestrial kingdom (for example) is that person stuck in that kingdom for eternity? Or can they jump to the celestial kingdom after meeting certain conditions?

I'm going to be a little bold in saying this, but I think any doctrinal misunderstandings or confusions can be addressed by focusing most of your study time on the atonement.

For example, the atonement has limits on when its effects are valid. It allows everyone, good or evil: to be resurrected, and to be brought into the Father and the Son's presence to be judged by Christ (overcoming the consequences of the fall... including separation from God... even if it's only temporary). This is a gift to all.

In regard to the second spiritual death (sin), if you haven't achieved exaltation at the judgment, you never will, and your progress will stop in your kingdom of glory, because the atonement's effects will no longer take hold (ex. King David).

[krysann]

It is the Atonement that delivers us from Spirit Prison. Baptism is the door to the Celestial Kingdom, not to paradise.

The thief on the cross was told by Jesus that he would be with Jesus that day in paradise. No baptism necessary. Alma, in his Near Death Experience, suffered spirit prison hell until he repented, and then was rescued. No baptism necessary.

I've only just picked up on this discussion and noted this reference to the thief on the cross and paradise. Just wanted to refer those who care to the BD explanation of 'Paradise' which interestingly makes reference to this particular incident.

I have enjoyed reading all the comments on this thread. Makes me realise how grateful I am to fellow Saints, for the wealth of knowledge you all have and are prepared to share with the likes of 'the uneducated' - me - through this amazing medium of modern technology, the internet. I am also grateful for the gift of the Holy Ghost that I have been blessed with - what a great and wonderful gift indeed, for surely, it can only be from the Spirit that I am able to clearly discern which parts of the many angles of discussion on this thread I need to take heed of at this time, and which parts are of little consequence to my life and needs right now.

Thank you all. So grateful to have found you.

[Justice]

I've pondered this question myself and have a few thoughts to add.

As with most beliefs about God the first term that needs to be defined is "eternity." If you believe eternity is a single "span" of existence that last from when one is created for ever more, then it's very hard to answer. From the scriptures we read, I'm inclined to think the most weight is placed on "no, you cannot progress after final judgement." Those who are sent to hell, and then redeemed from hell are included because that is their final judgement.

If you take "eternity" more along the lines of a never ending series of "eternities" or "eternal rounds" then there might be somethign to this. But, it is certain that it won't happen in this eternity.

One thing for sure is we are meant to think final judgement is permanent, whether forever or for this eternal round is up for discussion.

[sister_in_faith]

There was a person in my Gospel Doctrine class who adamantly claimed that the ancient Pharaohs had the power to teleport themselves.

Someone's been watching a little too much Stargate SG1!

[sister_in_faith]

I don't have an answer to any of these questions, but I am at peace about it, because no matter what the 'system' is, it will be perfect! The right things will happen. There won't be any mistakes.

I know for me that being separated from Heavenly Father would be my own kind of hell. I LONG to be with him. Just to sit at his feet and soak up his presence. I hope and pray that I am able to do that.

I know one thing, this thread makes me want to go to the temple in a hurry. I don't want to hold any one's progress back. I am the only church member in my family so their happiness rests on my shoulders. Lot's of responsibility!

[rameumptom]

I'm going to be a little bold in saying this, but I think any doctrinal misunderstandings or confusions can be addressed by focusing most of your study time on the atonement.

For example, the atonement has limits on when its effects are valid. It allows everyone, good or evil: to be resurrected, and to be brought into the Father and the Son's presence to be judged by Christ (overcoming the consequences of the fall... including separation from God... even if it's only temporary). This is a gift to all.

In regard to the second spiritual death (sin), if you haven't achieved exaltation at the judgment, you never will, and your progress will stop in your kingdom of glory, because the atonement's effects will no longer take hold (ex. King David).

And my view is that while this is the current view of the GAs, it hasn't always been so. Elder Talmage and others considered it possible that souls could possibly advance between kingdoms.

The atonement does not end at Judgment. It is an "infinite atonement", meaning it began at the beginning, during the Great Council (or before), and it will continue forever after.

We need to be careful in how we understand/interpret the meaning of words and phrases in the scriptures. Even the Lord explained in D&C 19 that he uses words that can have different meanings, depending on what level of knowledge and spirituality we are on. So, "Endless" and "Eternal" are names for God. Endless or Eternal punishment is God's punishment. It has an end, even if we do not know it. Even Outer Darkness may have an end for those who are in it (see D&C 76:45). It all depends on how words are nuanced.

While I do not teach it as doctrine, for it isn't, I personally believe that the atonement continues into the next life. Through the atonement, a person may still become greater, purer, and holy. They may yet achieve the celestial world, and perhaps even exaltation. Even those in Outer Darkness may someday turn their hearts towards Christ, and be rescued.

That is my hope. That is my belief in a God who loves all his children, and is willing to wait an eternity for them to return to Him through the atonement of Christ.

[Seminarysnoozer]

And my view is that while this is the current view of the GAs, it hasn't always been so. Elder Talmage and others considered it possible that souls could possibly advance between kingdoms.

The atonement does not end at Judgment. It is an "infinite atonement", meaning it began at the beginning, during the Great Council (or before), and it will continue forever after.

We need to be careful in how we understand/interpret the meaning of words and phrases in the scriptures. Even the Lord explained in D&C 19 that he uses words that can have different meanings, depending on what level of knowledge and spirituality we are on. So, "Endless" and "Eternal" are names for God. Endless or Eternal punishment is God's punishment. It has an end, even if we do not know it. Even Outer Darkness may have an end for those who are in it (see D&C 76:45). It all depends on how words are nuanced.

While I do not teach it as doctrine, for it isn't, I personally believe that the atonement continues into the next life. Through the atonement, a person may still become greater, purer, and holy. They may yet achieve the celestial world, and perhaps even exaltation. Even those in Outer Darkness may someday turn their hearts towards Christ, and be rescued.

That is my hope. That is my belief in a God who loves all his children, and is willing to wait an eternity for them to return to Him through the atonement of Christ.

What future action that occurs in the next will Christ atone for? I think that is what he/she is getting at. Is it possible to sin in the next life? I do not think so.

So, when we say that the atonement is eternal, the effect of the atonement is eternal in relation to what happens in this existence, between our first and second estate completion time.

If progression is possible from one kingdom to the next then I would assume you would also believe that regression is also possible. Could a person fall from the Terrestrial to the Telestial kingdom? How?

For me, the power and purpose of repentance also ties into the opportunity or the agency to sin. Spirit prison will be a short time for those who haven't quite made their choice final for various reasons, but once they make their choice, the choice is done. Without another opportunity to sin again, their would be no reason to be pulled out of the hole (the debt we have from sin) of sin again. ... unless you think we are going to be stepping in holes again after this life.

My hope is for rest. Not rest of labors, because we will keep doing God's work, but rest from sin, rest from temptations that lead to sin, rest from this corrupted, mortal world. The second coming and the events that follow will result in the extermination of sin, it will be no more.

[JudoMinja]

No, according to the prophets and apostles salvation is any of the kingdoms because we know that those who inherit the Telestial kingdom suffer and PAY for their sins during the Millennium. Therefore they have met the conditions of justice and will have salvation. It will not be with God but they will attain a portion of glory.

Let me ask you this question - are those who inherit the lower kingdoms still suffering the Second Death? Are they, in part, forever paying for their sins because they have been cut off from the presence of God?

Is not the price of all sin an Eternal separation from God? How then have they been saved FROM their sins?

I would argue that they have not been saved from their sins, but continue to suffer the punishment, in part because no one can ever truly save themselves.

I wanted to add to this- In D&C 76 there is a clear outline of what qualifies a person for the different degrees of glory. Within this outline is the following:

That those who enter the celestial glory are those "who have received the fulness of the Father". (verse 71)

That those who enter the terrestial glory are those "who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father". (verse 77)

And that those who enter the telestial glory are those "who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus" but who "deny not the Holy Spirit". (verses 82 and 83).

There is a pattern of succession here- a telestial glory is the glory of the Holy Spirit, a terrestrial glory is the glory of Christ, and the celestial glory is the glory of the Father. They build on each other, and it is our acceptance of each "level" that determines where we will end up.

Since those who end up in the telestial glory did not accept Christ, then His atonement does nothing for them. They must atone for their own sins by going through the torments of hell (verse 84) and paying their own debt. That Christ's atonement did not save them, however does not mean that they are not saved from the second death. In fact, earlier in this section it says:

"Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power

Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment". (verses 34-37 and 44)

The second death is to be completely cast off from God's presence. The only ones who experience the second death are the sons of perdition.

The telestial glory is still a level of glory. They still experience a portion of God's presence. But because they did not accept Christ, they must suffer the temporary sufferings of hell to atone for their own sins.

I agree with those who have said we will end up where we are most comfortable, and this will depend on what level of the gospel we have accepted and lived up to. Those who deny not the Holy Spirit and strive to follow what they believe to be true but do not accept Christ as their Savior are good people who will be comfortable in the telestial kingdom. Those who have accepted Christ as their Savior and strived to live by his teachings but did not accept the "fulness of the Father" are also good people who will be comfortable in the terrestial kingdom. Those who took upon themselves the "sacred covenants" and oaths of the Priesthood that the Father requires of them are the only ones who have proven themselves willing and able to take on the responsibilities that such a level of glory will require, and they will be comfortable in the celestial kingdom.

Receiving the glory of a lower kingdom is not a damnation. It is a wonderful reward equal to the works and desires of the heart of the individual. It will not be a sad thing to have received a lower kingdom, as it will be where that individual will be most happy.

[james12]

In relation to this topic of final judgement I find this thought interesting from John A. Widsow who said,

the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized, must start over again, must begin anew the long journey of existence, repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held" (Evidence and Reconciliations, pp. 213-214, emphasis added).

I don't have Widsow's book but apparently in it he refers to a discourse of Brigham Young's found in the Journal of Discourses 1:118 Duties and Privileges, Etc., by Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 112-120). A couple of quotes I found interesting...

Now look upon the opposite side of these principles. Suppose you say, “We will give up the pursuits of our holy religion. We are not Latter-day Saints....I tell you the result of that course. You would cease to increase in all the attributes of excellence, glory, and eternal duration, from that very moment. So soon as you conceive such ideas, they find a soil within you prepared to nurture them, and it brings forth their direful effects; from that very moment you cease to increase. The opposite principle seizes you, fastens itself upon you, and you decrease, lessen, diminish, decay, and waste away in quality, excellence, and strength, until your organization becomes extinct, oblivion covers you, your name is blotted out from the Book of Life, from the heavens, from the earth, and from under the earth, and you will return, and sink into your natural element, which cannot be destroyed, though many read the Bible as conveying such an idea, but it does not.

The principle opposite to that of eternal increase from the beginning, leads down to hell; the person decreases, loses his knowledge, tact, talent, and ultimately, in a short period of time, is lost; he returns to his mother earth, his name is forgotten.

He goes on...

The rebellious will be thrown back into their native element, there to remain myriads of years before their dust will again be revived, before they will be reorganized. Some might argue that this principle would lead to the reorganization of Satan, and all the devils. I say nothing about this, only what the Lord says—that when he comes, “he will destroy death, and him that has the power of it.” It cannot be annihilated; you cannot annihilate matter. If you could, it would prove there was empty space.

If there is eternal increase doesn't it stand to reason that there is eternal decrease? If this be the case for some then I ask, can any person remain stationary in time or eternity? Elder Widsow asserts that one may move down to disorganization and then begin again through the eternities to progress.

[Justice]

What future action that occurs in the next will Christ atone for?

I don't think what Ram was saying is quite this simple.

The scriptures are clear that "this life" is the time to prepare to meet God, and that no work will be done after this life.

Yet, those who have passed on from this life can benefit from actions taken on earth for them by proxy, and in fact, advance in the spirit world as a result of accepting those actions.

Not enough has been revealed to really know what awaits us.

I stand by my statement that we are meant to think final judgement is eternal. Beyond that, whether or not it actually is permanent may be clearer if you decide what "eternity" is.

[Seminarysnoozer]

In relation to this topic of final judgement I find this thought interesting from John A. Widsow who said,

I don't have Widsow's book but apparently in it he refers to a discourse of Brigham Young's found in the Journal of Discourses 1:118 Duties and Privileges, Etc., by Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 112-120). A couple of quotes I found interesting...

He goes on...

If there is eternal increase doesn't it stand to reason that there is eternal decrease? If this be the case for some then I ask, can any person remain stationary in time or eternity? Elder Widsow asserts that one may move down to disorganization and then begin again through the eternities to progress.

If everybody, or most everybody has "eternal increase" in the long run, then there is no meaning to the idea that there is a limit to the increase for some. What you are suggesting is that there really is no limit for anybody, I don't think that fits with our gospel principles of what happens in the three Kingdoms.

Pre-second estate completion, there is room for change, which is what those quotes are related to (I take it that way). He states, after the decrease, "returning to his mother earth" so this is talking about the body and the state of the body, not to be glorified in increase.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't think what Ram was saying is quite this simple.

The scriptures are clear that "this life" is the time to prepare to meet God, and that no work will be done after this life.

Yet, those who have passed on from this life can benefit from actions taken on earth for them by proxy, and in fact, advance in the spirit world as a result of accepting those actions.

Not enough has been revealed to really know what awaits us.

I stand by my statement that we are meant to think final judgement is eternal. Beyond that, whether or not it actually is permanent may be clearer if you decide what "eternity" is.

To me "next life" begins after the completion of the second estate. For those in the spirit world the second estate is not completed yet. I don't see Christ "paying" for anything beyond what occurred as a result of the Fall. Paradise is a place and called that way because it is a rest from the labors of this world, a rest from the effect of the Fall. After receiving our glorified body and it's matching Kingdom, the body that will never separate from our spirit again to be anything different that correlates with a specific Kingdom of glory, then we are done with the second estate just as much as none of us will go back to redo the first estate.

If one believes that the immortal connection of body and spirit after the resurrection could somehow change to another body, then that would probably have to be done via another mediator, another atonement, to pay for something that we couldn't do on our own. Who and where and how is that price paid? You (not you, specifically, but anyone who takes this stance) are suggesting that Christ' atonement is also, possibly for the price to advance from the Terrestrial state to the Celestial state, for example, after permanent, never-to-be-separated again resurrection? That is not part of any LDS teaching. If there was such an advancement possible then it would not be based in overcoming sin as there is no sin in the Terrestrial kingdom, it would only be based in the works of that individual. So, then we would be suggesting advancement by works alone. ... Unless there is another opportunity for sin, which cannot be the case without a corrupted body.

[annewandering]

it may be that the final judgement is that you are too stubborn to progress ever so you wont and likewise that you are a person that can learn and so will continue to do so.

I do know that some people can not be judged for what they do in this life due to mental or physical disabilities. I say physical because of limitations put on the mind due to things like schizophrenia.

[Justice]

There is always so much background needed before understanding can be reached. You are like me in that surface answers seem not to do, until we understand the things behind the surface. I don't mind your questions, but they are really beyond the simple point I was making. I'll restate with more detail.

I don't see Christ "paying" for anything beyond what occurred as a result of the Fall.

As I said, even though this life is the time to prepare to meet God, those who have passed on from "this life" can still benefit from what transpires in this life after they leave it. That advancement does not require another atonement. Sometimes we get so set in how we define terms we have difficulty seeing alternative interpretations. There will be advancement in the Spirit World (before the judgement) because of the atonement and ordinances that are performed on earth, even though scriptures can be interpreted as saying it is impossible.

I'm not suggesting we will need another atonement, just that it may apply in ways we can't possibly imagine here and now. Just as now, the world cannot see (generally) how being baptized for another person can possibly do any good for someone in the spirit world.

Paradise is a place and called that way because it is a rest from the labors of this world, a rest from the effect of the Fall.

But, not labors of the Gospel. We will no longer need to labor for physical things, or labors of this world, we'll still have a need to labor for spiritual things, or Gospel labors. I never heard it termed "a rest from the effect of the Fall" before. I would have to ponder it. But, the effects of the Fall were more than just physical, they were also spiritual.

After receiving our glorified body and it's matching Kingdom, the body that will never separate from our spirit again to be anything different that correlates with a specific Kingdom of glory, then we are done with the second estate just as much as none of us will go back to redo the first estate.

Again, there are pre-defined terms and understandings that lead you to believe this is true. But, often there may be other ways to understand simple things.

For instance: When a man and a woman are sealed for time and eternity, and are faithful to their covenant, and enter eternal life, must they be "joined at the hip," or never separated because they are "sealed" or joined for eternity? I don't think so.

Likewise, just because your body and spirit are joined together for eternity, does that mean they can never be "separated?" What does "eternally joined" mean?

In the New Testament, Christ appeared to the apostles in a closed, locked room, out of thin air, if you will. We know his physical body was incapable of walking through the walls without displacing the wall. But, His spirit body can walk through the walls. It seems His spirit and body was "separated" briefly, to be reunited again at will.

Is resurrection something we learn to do? Or, is it a one time event that is done for us, and then we never give it another thought? I can offer compelling evidence that resurrection may be more of a "learned" thing, where once you learn it you can never be separated from your body because you can command it to form at will "out of thin air."

If one believes that the immortal connection of body and spirit after the resurrection could somehow change to another body, then that would probably have to be done via another mediator, another atonement, to pay for something that we couldn't do on our own.

Why? If one believes the resurrection is a learned thing, and that the atonement can apply throughout all eternity, why can't it apply later as opposed to now, like it can apply to one who passed on from mortality without baptism?

You (not you, specifically, but anyone who takes this stance) are suggesting that Christ' atonement is also, possibly for the price to advance from the Terrestrial state to the Celestial state, for example, after permanent, never-to-be-separated again resurrection? That is not part of any LDS teaching.

My only point is, not that I'm right on anything I've said, but that we really don't know the possibilities that await us through the atonement, and we cannot fathom it's limits. To learn any one thing in the future (like the resurrection being something we learn instead of just something done to us one time) could completely change how we view componements of the Gospel down the road. To say that something is not true just because it has not been said is like saying "the Bible is the complete and entire word of God."

I'm certainly not asking you to believe any particular thing. I'm just showing how believing words differently might change other ideas, if true.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Justice

[james12]

If everybody, or most everybody has "eternal increase" in the long run, then there is no meaning to the idea that there is a limit to the increase for some. What you are suggesting is that there really is no limit for anybody, I don't think that fits with our gospel principles of what happens in the three Kingdoms.

Actually I do believe there may be limits in how far forward some can progress. They will progress to a certain point and no further. What I am questioning is the notion that some can reach a certain point and not progress forward or backward. I question the idea that for the eternities some stagnate and remain forever the same. I think the quotes I provided make it clear that this is not the case.

Pre-second estate completion, there is room for change, which is what those quotes are related to (I take it that way). He states, after the decrease, "returning to his mother earth" so this is talking about the body and the state of the body, not to be glorified in increase.

I disagree they are only related to our first estate. However, let me take what you do agree with, namely, that spirit bodies may be disorganized and over an infinitely long period of time be required to start the processes over again. Why is this not the same for our physical bodies? Interesting the large dichotomy you see between our first and second estates.

[rameumptom]

Judo,

Actually, Christ's atonement DOES pay the ransom for the Telestial. They will suffer in hell UNTIL they repent and believe on his name. They will barely be rescued from hell or Outer Darkness. They will be justified, or made guiltless in Christ's blood, but not sanctified (made holy). Alma 36 shows how this works, and in D&C 19, Christ explains we must repent or suffer as he does. In fact, even many of the Celestial will suffer the "buffetings of Satan" in Spirit Prison until they are cleanse every whit of sin through repentance and faith on Christ.

SeminarySnoozer asked:

What future action that occurs in the next will Christ atone for? I think that is what he/she is getting at. Is it possible to sin in the next life? I do not think so.

The atonement of Christ does more than just pay for our sins. The Book of Mormon teaches that it heals us of all pains, etc. And as I just mentioned, the atonement can sanctify us, or make us "more holy." It is not a "once saved" event, but an eternal principle.

I like how Blake Ostler describes it in his 3-volume seminal work on the attributes of God. When we repent, Christ embraces us in his love. We absorb his love and holiness, while he absorbs our sins and pain. It is an on-going event that he does.

For a person who ends up in the Telestial Kingdom, they are not completely healed. Only being in the full presence of God and being at peace in His presence can a person be fully healed. I believe a loving God would never shut the door for a person wanting to change. I cannot fathom that a life of 75 years can have so much an impact on our eternal ever after that we cannot change and improve our circumstance thereafter. It may take a person a few eternities or eternal rounds to move to a higher realm, but as long as it is a possibility, then I would hope God would provide that opportunity.

[JudoMinja]

While I can understand the sentiment behind believing there can be a progression between kingdoms, I think it is incorrect. What would the purpose of this life be, what would we be determining/deciding if the final judgment was not truly final?

There is a character in a book series I really enjoy who is constantly thrust into very difficult situations. In these situations he is often presented with opportunities to gain more "power". The offers are appealing and promising, always ripe with possibilities, but also always loaded with adverse consequences. Those consequences are not made obvious, not presented clearly- the offer is always shaded- but this character always takes a moment to think about the "big picture" and what would happen should he make such a choice. Throughout the series he rejects offer after offer, finding ways to do the right thing and still make things work out despite overwhelming adversity. Until finally he caves- he is presented with a situation that is beyond his ability, and he finally makes a deal.

I cannot help but think of our own lives and our own struggles every time I read these books and see how he handles adversity. Each moment of victory brought him greater strength and greater ability, but greater challenges soon followed. It was as though he was purposely being pushed to his breaking point, as though situations were molded to extract what strength of character he had within himself. It is only in the face of the greatest challenges that we come to understand just what kind of "man" we are. Will we do what we know to be right, despite everything, or will we deign to take the "easier" road of power? Our choices are not always clear- the consequences not always obvious- but this is when our true character is revealed. How much adversity can we handle? How much will it take to bend us or break us? And where will we turn when those overwhelming moments inevitably come?

That is the purpose of this life- to test and determine our character. To reveal to ourselves our own strengths. To see what we will decide when faced with the hardest, most terrifying decisions- and what we will do when things are "easy". Will we become stronger? Will we become complacent? Will we cave? Will we fold? Will we turn to the Lord? Why would such a discovery and determination be important if we could move between kingdoms? I believe that our character does not really change- it is only discovered, and the circumstances of this life are perfectly designed so that each of our characters are tested in the way that will make that all important discovery. Where we are placed in the final judgment is conducive with that character.

It is not a punishment, but a determination. I think that those in lesser kingdoms will simply have no desire to move higher. They will be content with what they have, much like someone who is happy with "just getting by" and has no desire for a position of responsibility may be perfectly happy and content being a janitor (or some other "lesser" job) all their life. They could progress further if they had the desire, but the rewards of greater commitments are just not appealing to that individual. I do not think this means these people will become stagnant. I am sure they will also experience a form of eternal increase, within their kingdom.

[mikbone]

“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.”

-Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965

“None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods — all others would have to inherit another kingdom — they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?].”

-Brigham Young, in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855

“Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.”

-Joseph F. Smith, Improvement Era 14:87 [November 1910]

“I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.”

-J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3

“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”

-James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421

The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory

celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of

advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be

considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has

been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is

said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by

those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered

unto by those of the terrestrial—that is, those of the higher glory

minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for

all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for

the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of

eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so

many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories

after education and advancement within those spheres may at last

emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory

until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the

revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake

more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that

such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the

celestial glory—having before them the privilege also of eternal

progress—have been moving onward, so that the relative distance

between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser

glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of

celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at

the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as

to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where

those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance

into the celestial kingdom—they may arrive where these were, but never

where they are.”

B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392.

“There is never a time,” the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.” 23

Boyd K. Packer, “The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 18

[Seminarysnoozer]

I like how Blake Ostler describes it in his 3-volume seminal work on the attributes of God. When we repent, Christ embraces us in his love. We absorb his love and holiness, while he absorbs our sins and pain. It is an on-going event that he does.

For a person who ends up in the Telestial Kingdom, they are not completely healed. Only being in the full presence of God and being at peace in His presence can a person be fully healed. I believe a loving God would never shut the door for a person wanting to change. I cannot fathom that a life of 75 years can have so much an impact on our eternal ever after that we cannot change and improve our circumstance thereafter. It may take a person a few eternities or eternal rounds to move to a higher realm, but as long as it is a possibility, then I would hope God would provide that opportunity.

Thanks for your response.

Where can I learn more about this idea that people in the Telestial Kingdom are not completely healed? I cannot find that doctrine in the scriptures or in the manuals of the church. At the point of resurrection, all is healed and accounted for. At the moment of resurrection, we are well above the point from which we left God's presence in terms of our progression. I have more often heard that a person is placed in a Kingdom of which they will be the most happy, that is the Kingdom they want to be in, by way of their character and choices.

I am also not sure why you think our future is just based on our performance here, like the example you gave of 75 years. Obviously, there is plenty of information to decide where a soul goes who only lives for one day in this world, that they can go to the Celestial Kingdom. Or a soul who is born with Down's syndrome etc. Our final judgement is based on how we kept our first estate as well, which is a reflection of our spiritual self. Our spiritual maturity will not change in terms of our characteristics.

We are who we are, here we are showing who we are by making the choices we make. The changes that we make here are because we are fallen and so there is room to show a change in that setting. Like someone being thrown in the deep end of the pool, how far will the person swim to the surface on their own, is the test, but we started at the surface. When the test is over, one doesn't find themselves at the bottom of the pool. Then, it becomes obvious who is allowed in the pool or not. When we show that we are good stewards over a little responsibility in this situation then we prove our ability to handle greater responsibility in the next life. We are not given little responsibility here because that is all that we could handle, it is because it is a test.

When a person enters the Telestial Kingdom, they are placed there, in that state of glory because that is what they want. That individual wants to be in that type of setting based in their character, who they are, their true self that God can see a lot better than any of us can describe. God will not put us in a Kingdom that we don't want to be in. If a person is in the Telestial Kingdom because they want to be there, what possible thing could they hear or understand that would make them change course and say, wait, "God got it wrong, this is not who I really am, I want to be something else"????

Could it be some information they didn't really quite understand? No! we all accepted the plan and understood it by accepting it in the first estate. Is it because they didn't have an opportunity to express their choice? No! because the Spirit World takes care of that lack of opportunity if there is one. Then, what could God, possibly miss about that person's character traits that at first He would say this person would be the most possible happy in this Kingdom and then later change His mind??

[Seminarysnoozer]

I guess the biggest issue I have with the view of "Kingdom hopping" is the idea that a person who is placed in the Terrestrial or the Telestial Kingdom is left with some kind of wanting, that they have some kind of regret that they are in the position they are put in. That, to me, goes against the idea that all Kingdoms are Kingdoms of full happiness for those people. That does not seem like a Kingdom of happiness to me, if a person goes about their business saying to themselves, 'I wish I were in the other Kingdom'.

I understand that this would be a hard concept to understand for probably most of us who are on this forum who hunger and thirst after knowledge. But, whether a person 'hungers and thirsts" for Celestial life is based in their characteristics of that spirit, revealed and supported by their works here, from which God does not get it wrong at the Final Judgement. If that is who they are, there is no reason to say that they will someday long to be something else.

If one wants to go to be a Lawyer, for example, one prepares and studies and works to pass the exams necessary to apply to Law school and move on from there. If they fail the exam, they study some more and see if they can pass but their desire did not change, who they are inside did not change. If a person does not want to be a Lawyer, why would anyone insist that that person take the entrance exams over and over again until they pass it? Likewise, if we are applying to the school of becoming like God, why would God force that on someone who really doesn't have that desire, to go all the way? Unless, they somehow changed that desire. But the test of desires of the heart is what this life is about. We are showing what we desire and I don't think God misinterprets that at the Final Judgement.