Pictures doing illegal drugs?

[jayanna]

I'll be about ready for a vacation by then Pam, could you stop by and pick me up on the way.

Nevermind, I remember I'm subject to a random urininalysis

I'm not...I'm just sayin B)

[NeuroTypical]

So what? I guarantee you, for most of those people, that's just a sign of how effective Medical Marijuana is, in that, without it, they DO walk bent over and in wheelchairs, but with it, they don't. That is a good thing.

Please understand - I am not claiming MM does not have legitimate medical uses. I am not claiming that it doesn't help people.

I am claiming that the only way someone can believe that MM is only used for legitimate medical purposes, is to ignore easily findable facts.

I am claiming that in legalizing MM, we're basically legalizing marijuana for anyone who wants it, whether or not they have anything close to an actual medical condition.

Additionally, I guarantee you that while you are watching all these 18-45 year-old males go in for their illegal drug, not only are you judging some of them wrongly

I am not judging anyone, nor am I urging anyone to judge anyone.

I am claiming that the only way someone can believe that MM is only used for legitimate medical purposes, is to ignore easily findable facts.

I am claiming that in legalizing MM, we're basically legalizing marijuana for anyone who wants it, whether or not they have anything close to an actual medical condition.

My point is, unless you're a specialist in pain management, you really can't tell anything about a lot of people's pain by parking yourself across the street and watching them walk, upright, into the drug store. For some, the fact that they can do that demonstrates how effective MM is and why it is so important they be allowed to continue taking it.

Key word - "some".

My wife has contacts in both the DEA, and in the drug culture. We both keep abreast of the ongoing legal battles, and studies done. And you don't need to be a specialist in pain management to reach the glaringly obvious conclusion, that MM is in effect, legalizing marijuana for anyone who wants it.

Admitting that overwhelmingly supportable observation, does not equate to ignoring that it also helps some people with legitimate medical needs.

LM

[pam]

I'm really behind on this thread. I'm still back on reading the title and thinking: "How in the heck do pictures do illegal drugs?"

[Dravin]

I'm really behind on this thread. I'm still back on reading the title and thinking: "How in the heck do pictures do illegal drugs?"

Ever heart of acid-free paper? I mean if paper can find a way to not-be acid free, why not pictures?

[rex8499]

There was a lot of shady dealing and politics that made marijuana illegal in the first place and I don't think it should have been made illegal any more than regular tobacco should be.

Maybe MJ, tobacco, and alcohol should all be illegal, but they tried prohibition and it didn't work. In the end, if people want to do stupid things which hurt themselves I'm fine with letting them be stupid as long as they don't hurt others in the process. Unfortunately, it happens often.

Never smoked anything myself, but I know plenty of people who do and they seem more responsible stoned than many of those who are drunk. Impossible to overdose on MJ too. You'd have to smoke 1500lbs in 15 minutes, which isn't going to happen. But lots of people die from alcohol overdose.

So, I don't endorse it. It's dumb and unhealthy. But I'm not going to turn someone in for it either.

[NeuroTypical]

Yes, well, the issue with MJ isn't just whether it's good for you or not. The issue is also about where it comes from. The south of the border drug trade is closely linked (as in different limbs of the same body) to child slavery and prostitution, as well as the kidnappings and killings you occasionally read about. It was bad enough when the columbian gangs would kill each other over trade routes into the US (35,000 dead since 2007 in Mexico alone). But now that homeland growing is getting legal, the violence is spreading to this side of the border more and more. A cartel will not sit idly by while tens of thousands of legal US growers open up and start eating in to profits.

Not only that, but govt agencies, once waging war against the drug trade, has now joined in as a faction, sometimes making production agreements with the same guys who do the child prostitution stuff.

But hey, like Elphaba says, it helps out a few folks who actually benefit from it medically. And like rex says, it's not like the end user of this stuff ever forced a 13 yr old into prostitution and drug-running, or kidnapped a US govt agent and mailed the decapitated head to his wife.

Anyone want to try to claim that legalizing medicinal MJ has lowered crime here in the states?

LM

[rex8499]

Anyone want to try to claim that legalizing medicinal MJ has lowered crime here in the states?

Nope. Other than lowering the frequency of the crime of acquiring illegal MJ. But I would argue that it hasn't raised crime either.

The issue is also about where it comes from.

Legalizing it will allow it to return as a domestic product like it used to be, circumventing the baddies. It wouldn't continue coming from the troubled world but would become a domestic product just like tobacco. The baddies might cause trouble for awhile trying to keep their profits coming, but eventually their funding will dry up and they will disappear or switch to other products. As opposed to the current setup where they will keep raking in huge profits and doing bad things to protect their greed indefinitely.

[slamjet]

Not all pot smokers go on to heavy drugs (i would venture to be very few), but every person I've met who has/is kicking a drug addiction have all started off with pot. In addition, the one thing I've noticed, to a person, is that pot takes away all ambition and drive to better ones self.

Legalizing pot is a hideous capitulation and one that will only serve to make the harder drugs problem even worse.

[rex8499]

every person I've met who has/is kicking a drug addiction have all started off with alcohol or cigarettes, not pot. Pot's an intermediate step and just the first illegal one.

My brother is addicted to pot. Smokes it all weekend long every weekend. But he's still doing well in college and working hard to better himself.

[slamjet]

every person I've met who has/is kicking a drug addiction have all started off with alcohol or cigarettes, not pot. Pot's an intermediate step and just the first illegal one.

I'll concede your point.

My brother is addicted to pot. Smokes it all weekend long every weekend. But he's still doing well in college and working hard to better himself.

If that works for him. My experience with myself and others have been different.

[Elphaba]

I am not judging anyone, nor am I urging anyone to judge anyone.

Of course you are. When you say: "If you ever have a saturday afternoon to kill, park across the street from your local dispensary and watch who goes in and out. You won't see many people in wheelchairs, or folks bald with chemotherapy, or any such thing." that is blatantly both a judgement on your part and urging others to do the same.

Key word - "some".

"Some" equates to 70 million Americans.

Admitting that overwhelmingly supportable observation, does not equate to ignoring that it also helps some people with legitimate medical needs.

Again, so what? You certainly think 70 million Americans' pain is irrelevant in the large picture.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

I am not judging anyone, nor am I urging anyone to judge anyone.

Of course you are. You wrote:

If you ever have a saturday afternoon to kill, park across the street from your local dispensary and watch who goes in and out. You won't see many people in wheelchairs, or folks bald with chemotherapy, or any such thing.

Again, some of these people you'd presume were getting the drug illegally, would not be. That is, blatantly, judging people on your part.

Additionally, telling others to kill an afternoon by watching these same people is urging them to judge these people wrongly as well.

Key word - "some".

Seventy million Americans live in debilitating chronic pain. "Some" turns into a massive number if every store in America had someone like you watching people walk through the door for legitimate pain medications.

Admitting that overwhelmingly supportable observation, does not equate to ignoring that it also helps some people with legitimate medical needs.

Admitting that overhwelmingly supportable observation demonstrates MM would benefit millions of Americans does not equate to insisting no one obtains the drugs illegally. I never said otherwise, though I acknowledge I didn't adress it. It wasn't my point.

My point is, it's obvious you don't comprehend the massive need for safe and effective pain management drugs like MM. It's not just the "some" that you so sarcastically dismiss. The fact is, most of these Americans would benefit from MM much more than they do from other pain-management substances. For some reason, MM works better, and is safer.

No, you don't deny that, but you certainly dismiss it. Your other sracastic, and trivializing description, "few," demonstrates that quite clearly.

Perhaps you think I dismiss the issue of those getting it illegally? Honestly, I don't. I would never presume to say only "some" people, or a "few" people, are doing this. I just don't have any answers, or expertise, so I don't address it. But I don't dismiss it.

Both issues, people getting it illegally, and providing it to the millions of people for whom it is the best medical choice, are equally as important, and should be addressed as such. And as is always the case, the answers are complicated and difficult. But in seeking those answers, all aspects of the issue should be addressed, and all people affected by those answers should be considered.

Elphaba

Edited March 10, 2011 by Elphaba

[NeuroTypical]

My point is, it's obvious you don't comprehend the massive need for safe and effective pain management drugs like MM.

Not sure what makes that so obvious. Both my parents had needs for pain management in hospice environments at the end of their lives. My mom would have been a good candidate for MM, as oral meds made her nauseous, her veins were drying up and going away, and patches seemed ineffective. My wife has migranes. I'm 3 months into my painful 5 month recovery from shoulder surgery.

None of that changes the fact that a huge chunk, possibly the majority of folks walking into legal dispensaries with prescriptions in their hands, are the same people who were getting their weed in the alley before they could get it legally. Most are men between 18-45. Again, I'm not saying MM doesn't have legitimate uses. I'm not saying there aren't people who benefit from MM. I'm saying the practical impact of legalizing MM, is legalizing it for everyone, whether they've got a legitimate need or not.

My urging to spend a day watching the people go in and out, was probably not the best way of trying to convince folks of this. It really isn't about judging folks. It's about gathering data. If the majority of folks going to dispensaries actually had legitimate pain needs, then you'd see a wider range of both genders from a wider variety of ages. But as it is, majority = males, 18-45. Tell me Elphaba, is there something special about women that they don't need pain meds, or don't obtain them? Is there something special about kids or men middle aged or older, where they don't need pain meds or don't obtain them?

Truly, I don't get the resistance you're throwing up here. Ok - MM is a good thing and blessing to many people with actual pain. It still means that everyone else who wants a toke can get one 'legally'.

Maybe it would help if I explained how it happens?

Dood wants to score some weed so he and his girlfriend can get high. So he goes to a "doctor" and gets a "prescription". Here in CO, the MM law defines "doctor" as not just a doctor, but anyone currently training to be one. And you don't have to be accepted into any medical program, pre-med works too. And by pre-med, that means as little as taking a few community college classes. So, dood wants to get high, he used to go to a dealer. But now he goes to a script writer, who is basically someone who writes 'pain med' on a piece of paper. Then he gives the piece of paper to a dispensary, and has his pick of Afternoon Delight, or Sweet Freedom, or maybe some enriched brownie mix or maybe even some fried chicken battered in MJ breading. He and his girlfriend go off and get high. One benefit, if he gets robbed by some jerk in a rival gang on his way to his girlfriend's house, now he calls the cops and reports it, whereas he didn't used to because they'd arrest him for posession.

The cops are happy to write off MJ as stuff they spend time on, so they can focus on other things. They might look at this system as a way of establishing probable cause for a search for something worse, but otherwise they don't care.

So again, to recap highights, in no particular order:

1- Pot heads are getting MJ aboveboard now since they legalized MM.

2- Various govt agencies are currently acting as factions in the drug trade, sometimes doing business with columbian growers who also do kidnappings, underage slavery and prostitution, and murders.

3- MM probably has legitimate medical uses that sometimes can't be filled by other medicines.

4- Lots of Americans have chronic pain.

5- The fact that that points 3 and 4 exist, does not negate the reality of points 1 and 2.

LM

Edited March 10, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Guest]

Not sure what makes that so obvious. Both my parents had needs for pain management in hospice environments at the end of their lives. My mom would have been a good candidate for MM, as oral meds made her nauseous, her veins were drying up and going away, and patches seemed ineffective. My wife has migranes. I'm 3 months into my painful 5 month recovery from shoulder surgery.

None of that changes the fact that a huge chunk, possibly the majority of folks walking into legal dispensaries with prescriptions in their hands, are the same people who were getting their weed in the alley before they could get it legally. Most are men between 18-45. Again, I'm not saying MM doesn't have legitimate uses. I'm not saying there aren't people who benefit from MM. I'm saying the practical impact of legalizing MM, is legalizing it for everyone, whether they've got a legitimate need or not.

My urging to spend a day watching the people go in and out, was probably not the best way of trying to convince folks of this. It really isn't about judging folks. It's about gathering data. If the majority of folks going to dispensaries actually had legitimate pain needs, then you'd see a wider range of both genders from a wider variety of ages. But as it is, majority = males, 18-45. Tell me Elphaba, is there something special about women that they don't need pain meds, or don't obtain them? Is there something special about kids or men middle aged or older, where they don't need pain meds or don't obtain them?

Truly, I don't get the resistance you're throwing up here. Ok - MM is a good thing and blessing to many people with actual pain. It still means that everyone else who wants a toke can get one 'legally'.

Maybe it would help if I explained how it happens?

Dood wants to score some weed so he and his girlfriend can get high. So he goes to a "doctor" and gets a "prescription". Here in CO, the MM law defines "doctor" as not just a doctor, but anyone currently training to be one. And you don't have to be accepted into any medical program, pre-med works too. And by pre-med, that means as little as taking a few community college classes. So, dood wants to get high, he used to go to a dealer. But now he goes to a script writer, who is basically someone who writes 'pain med' on a piece of paper. Then he gives the piece of paper to a dispensary, and has his pick of Afternoon Delight, or Sweet Freedom, or maybe some enriched brownie mix or maybe even some fried chicken battered in MJ breading. He and his girlfriend go off and get high. One benefit, if he gets robbed by some jerk in a rival gang on his way to his girlfriend's house, now he calls the cops and reports it, whereas he didn't used to because they'd arrest him for posession.

The cops are happy to write off MJ as stuff they spend time on, so they can focus on other things. They might look at this system as a way of establishing probable cause for a search for something worse, but otherwise they don't care.

So again, to recap highights, in no particular order:

1- Pot heads are getting MJ aboveboard now since they legalized MM.

2- Various govt agencies are currently acting as factions in the drug trade, sometimes doing business with columbian growers who also do kidnappings, underage slavery and prostitution, and murders.

3- MM probably has legitimate medical uses that sometimes can't be filled by other medicines.

4- Lots of Americans have chronic pain.

5- The fact that that points 3 and 4 exist, does not negate the reality of points 1 and 2.

LM

Legalized MM is not the reason potheads are potheads. Potheads will be potheads whether Marijuana is legal or not.

The reason you see a varying demographic in people seeking MM is because of the negative connotation of taking Marijuana. Psychologically, women are more careful of negative impressions than men.

Your reasoning is deficient in keeping marijuana illegal. My husband's sister died of Oxycontin overdose. Nobody in his family nor mine is intent on making Oxycontin illegal simply because of the fact that Oxycontin is beneficial when used properly. This is the same with Marijuana. When Marijuana is used properly, it is beneficial. So, put a prescription requirement on it and put it in the hands of doctors - just like everything else that is medical.

I know a lot of kids who get high on over the counter cough syrup. I know a lot of kids who get high on permanent markers, CO2 dusters, gasoline, etc. etc. These things will never become controlled substances.

There is more physical harm in alcohol consumption than there is in Marijuana - both first person and secondary (drunk driving incidences, violence etc.). Yet alcohol remains legal. And I have no problem with that. Because, in the end, I don't want the government to dictate what is good for each individual in a society. I want the people to decide that for themselves.

[NeuroTypical]

Legalized MM is not the reason potheads are potheads. Potheads will be potheads whether Marijuana is legal or not.

Completely agree.

The reason you see a varying demographic in people seeking MM is because of the negative connotation of taking Marijuana. Psychologically, women are more careful of negative impressions than men.

I'm still thinking my explanation is much more plausible. Potheads are mostly male between 18 and 45. Potheads now get their weed from legal dispensaries.

I guess I should ask the obvious question - are you under the impression that MM dispensaries only serve folks with legitimate needs? If so, can you tell me where you got that impression?

Your reasoning is deficient in keeping marijuana illegal.

I have given very little reasoning in this thread, and am pretty much only describing the realities of the situation. I've said nothing about wanting to keep mj illegal. I've admitted several times that MM probably has a legitimate medical use. In fact, I've admitted my mom could have benefited from it's use.

When Marijuana is used properly, it is beneficial. So, put a prescription requirement on it and put it in the hands of doctors - just like everything else that is medical.

Fine /w me, but that's not what is happening. Did you read my story about how potheads get their legal MM? That is what is happening.

[marshac]

The old Mormon slogan is "Mind your own business, Saints will observe this. All others ought to." Sure- this slogan has fallen out of use, but it was common in the Church back in the day.... maybe i'm just too tired from too much studying, but perhaps this is somewhat applicable.

Besides... the problem with ratting people out- especially friends- is that you become the LAST person they will ever go to when they really need some advice. It's not worth it.

From the Logan Temple-

[findingmyway]

Back to original post message..... Just go slap your friend and tell him to act up..... then slap him again...... and another one. But love him always, whether smoking or not. Personally, weed and drugs broke my family apart. I hate it..... but i also understand that addiction is a disease, and that people need love and help , rather than condemnation.

[Wingnut]

Back to original post message..... Just go slap your friend and tell him to act up..... then slap him again...... and another one.

She's in NY, he's in OR.

[findingmyway]

Road trip !!!!!

[Elphaba]

Not sure what makes that so obvious. . . .

It seemed obvious to me because of your choice to use “some” and “few” in a sarcastic manner. I’m genuinely sorry to hear that about your mother. That sound horrific.

Tell me Elphaba, is there something special about women that they don't need pain meds, or don't obtain them?

No. In fact, statistically women are more likely to suffer from chronic pain than men, which goes to your point.

Truly, I don't get the resistance you're throwing up here.

My resistance, which I acknowledge has gotten lost in the conversation, was to your presumptions, which are extremely common, about what people who legitimately need MM look like. You wrote a whole post on it, including:

You won't see many people in wheelchairs, or folks bald with chemotherapy, or any such thing.

As I explained earlier, it is entirely possible for someone to look completely healthy and yet have as legitimate a need for MM as a person in a wheelchair or a cancer patient. That really was the point I wanted to emphasize, but I got caught up in other points, so I suspect it was missed.

lMaybe it would help if I explained how it happens?

Yes, your explanation did help. I can see why you’re so concerned. I had assumed MM was dispensed the same way my pain meds are, i.e., through a pain clinic, which is a laborious, on-going process. It is impossible for anyone to get these meds the same way you say people in CO get MM. Well, perhaps a more accurate statement would be it is impossible for as many people to get them. Obviously, people who don't really need them do get them; however, the advent of pain clinics and stricter guidelines have reduced those numbers significantly. Unfortunately, it is still a serious problem, and always will be.

However, the solution is not to make pain meds illegal, which, it has been my impression throughout this discussion, is your solution to the illegitimate use of MM, but perhaps I'm wrong. Would you please clarify what you think the solution is?

Elphaba

Edited March 12, 2011 by Elphaba

[NeuroTypical]

Thanks, Elphaba.

For the record, I don't really have any solution to advocate at all. I'm just thinking that before a solution can even be visualized, folks need to be aware of the realities of the current situation. And I find that both sides of the issue tend to be pretty unaware of various important aspects of reality.

The pro-MM folks tend to be unaware of the realities of who produces and distributes the stuff, and who uses it. The anti-MM folks tend to be unaware of it's legitimate uses, and have an oversensationalized concerns of mj's impact on a human soul. Nobody will ever budge an inch to work together until they allow themselves to understand the other side a bit.

LM

[lizzy16]

I haven't talked to him in 3 years. I went to check and see how he was and heard about all of this from his parents and from his myspace.

I can't exactly slap him even if he was here..

[findingmyway]

Well, friends slap each other.... in a loving way. Either way , Its cool that you still care about him though. I wonder why you havent talked to him, send him a message or something even on myspace. Im sure you'll have some good conversations.

[Guest Alana]

findingmyway is just a little slap happy. Maybe he needs some marijuana to calm down...

[findingmyway]

findingmyway is just a little slap happy. Maybe he needs some marijuana to calm down...

Thats it I you.... :lol: and then . I've turned down many people.... hid and threw bags of it away in different occasions..... Should have seen their faces, thought i was on drugs for doing that. Luckily, drugs isnt one of my my temptations. Too fake, I deal with life slap happy