What becomes of Christ's wounds?

[utahdave]

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that once Christ's work has been completed and he presents it to the Father that he will no longer need to keep his wounds and they would disappear. Certainly he must still have them, as he will show them to the Jews as he delivers them. But I can't find a reference to the removal of the wounds after the millennium and judgement. Is there a source for this, or am I just dreaming? Any help?

[rameumptom]

We really do not know whether he will or will not keep his wounds. The scriptures do not tell us, nor is there any doctrinal teaching of the prophets. Some have offered opinions, but that is all it is. For all we know, those marks are there permanently as a symbol of perfection.

[mikbone]

I have never heard any commentary on the matter. But for me, I suppose that they are permanent.

I bet the belly button is a permanent fixture also.

I would not be suprised in the least, If the Father had similar markings.

[Javajot]

I did hear from a wise teacher one day that the marks would be permanent. I asked this question too. From what I understand those marks are as permanent as His eternal identity as The Savior.

[Blackmarch]

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that once Christ's work has been completed and he presents it to the Father that he will no longer need to keep his wounds and they would disappear. Certainly he must still have them, as he will show them to the Jews as he delivers them. But I can't find a reference to the removal of the wounds after the millennium and judgement. Is there a source for this, or am I just dreaming? Any help?

I cannot recall any scripture reference that says they will be done away with at some point, needed or not.

[mordorbund]

The closest I've found is Isaiah 22, a messianic reference that includes the imagery of fastening and removing nails:

And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father’s house. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons. In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the Lord hath spoken it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have never heard any commentary on the matter. But for me, I suppose that they are permanent.

I bet the belly button is a permanent fixture also.

I would not be suprised in the least, If the Father had similar markings.

I disagree with the idea of "markings" remaining permanent but agree with there not being any proof of that, at least that I know of. I believe that resurrection is a perfect restoration of the body to it's original creation, Adam and Eve, it being the only perfect creation we know about. After the fall of Adam, there were changes to the body. We don't know for sure but there could have been many differences made to make a 'probationary state' body that would include making giving birth painful etc. If those features are taken away that may change several things about the way we currently look. Also the resurrected body will be made out of different material, perfected material that could greatly change our exact appearance, we will be in the same 'image' but that is all we know. If they remain on His body, they are only for specific purposes pertaining to this round and when fulfilled would likely be done away with.

I, for one, would be greatly surprised if the Father had similar markings. Statistically speaking there is a low chance that He was the Savior of His world out of all those that received Celestial Glory of the highest degree. How many individuals will make it to that level? 100, 1,000 or 100,000? Whatever the number it probably would make it less than 1% chance that He was the Savior of that world. Or are you trying to say that only the Savior has a chance to really be like the Father?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I did hear from a wise teacher one day that the marks would be permanent. I asked this question too. From what I understand those marks are as permanent as His eternal identity as The Savior.

So, we will be wearing our righteousness and valor on our "sleeve" so-to-speak in the next life, that doesn't seem right to me. I don't think there will be any need to physically distinguish Himself from anyone, we will all know who He is. Here, people don't know him and couldn't distinguish or recognize Him but after, everyone will.

[mikbone]

I, for one, would be greatly surprised if the Father had similar markings. Statistically speaking there is a low chance that He was the Savior of His world out of all those that received Celestial Glory of the highest degree. How many individuals will make it to that level? 100, 1,000 or 100,000? Whatever the number it probably would make it less than 1% chance that He was the Savior of that world.

We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon; ) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. April 7, 1844 - "The King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in the Times and Seasons Minutes

The argument here made by the Prophet is very much strengthened by the following passage: "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (St. John 5:19) - Note by Elder B. H. Roberts, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, p.346

Or are you trying to say that only the Savior has a chance to really be like the Father?

I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day. April 7, 1844 - "King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in Times and Seasons Minutes

Revelations 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

In the above scripture, it looks like there are 2 separate thrones that are being discussed.

Edited April 19, 2011 by mikbone

[estradling75]

Interesting... I also heard the same thing as UtahDave. I filed it under interesting bit of trivia at the time. If I am remembering correctly it came up during a discussion about resurrection and perfect bodies. I will be interested to see if it can be clearly sourced one way or the other

[Seminarysnoozer]

We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon; ) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. April 7, 1844 - "The King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in the Times and Seasons Minutes

The argument here made by the Prophet is very much strengthened by the following passage: "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (St. John 5:19) - Note by Elder B. H. Roberts, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, p.346

I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day. April 7, 1844 - "King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in Times and Seasons Minutes

Revelations 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

In the above scripture, it looks like there are 2 separate thrones that are being discussed.

As much as you think it might have, those quotes do not respond directly to my question I had for you which is; "Or are you trying to say that only the Savior has a chance to really be like the Father?"

Those passages say that the Father lay down his life, like all of us will, I will lay down my life, you will lay down your life, everyone will. It is to say that we all have to pass through a probationary period where our life is not permanent. That we will have to lay down our lives and then take them back again. I think you are reading to much into that discussion to say that the Father was a Savior previously in the same way that Jesus the Christ is our Savior. The King Follett discourse is given to a crowd that dose not believe in the pre-existence for the most part and has a misconception of the eternal nature of our spirits.

As far as the Revelations scripture, yes! We are all supposed to overcome our carnal states by upholding the gospel that Jesus gives us. If we are obedient we can all overcome, again that does not specify the role of leadership in overcoming or how it was done, whether through a Savior of His own or by Himself. "Throne" is metaphorical, of course.

[mikbone]

As much as you think it might have, those quotes do not respond directly to my question I had for you which is; "Or are you trying to say that only the Savior has a chance to really be like the Father?"

Those passages say that the Father lay down his life, like all of us will, I will lay down my life, you will lay down your life, everyone will. It is to say that we all have to pass through a probationary period where our life is not permanent. That we will have to lay down our lives and then take them back again. I think you are reading to much into that discussion to say that the Father was a Savior previously in the same way that Jesus the Christ is our Savior. The King Follett discourse is given to a crowd that dose not believe in the pre-existence for the most part and has a misconception of the eternal nature of our spirits.

As far as the Revelations scripture, yes! We are all supposed to overcome our carnal states by upholding the gospel that Jesus gives us. If we are obedient we can all overcome, again that does not specify the role of leadership in overcoming or how it was done, whether through a Savior of His own or by Himself. "Throne" is metaphorical, of course.

I doubt that you can lay down your life. And I know that no one other than Jesus Christ could take it back up again. In my mind Joseph Smith is trying to relate the nature of Jesus Christ, that he was able to give up his life and resurrect himself, please see John 10:17-18.

You may want to do some more research on the King Follett Discourse. Here is a good source - The King Follett Discourse: Joseph Smith’s Greatest Sermon in Historical Perspective

The King Follett Discourse was actually Joseph Smith's final general conference (The 14th Annual Conference), wherein he gave a 2.5 hour talk during Sunday session. It was given to an audience of around 20,000 people - the overwhelming number of which were LDS.

As to your question, Do I believe that only the Savior has a chance to really be like the Father? Yes and No. I agree with Joseph Smith's Statement:

I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation

The Savior will inherit a Kingdom and present it to the Father. Do I have a Kingdom to inherit? Not yet thats for sure. Do I have the potential to eventually do so? It is my hope.

Edited April 19, 2011 by mikbone

[utahdave]

I found something about this. For what its worth. Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation states that "It can hardly be accepted as fact that these wounds have remained in his hands, side, and feet all through the centuries from the time of his crucifixion and will remain until his Second Coming" His statement "will remain until" seems to indicated that after that time (ie the Second Coming) they will no longer persist.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I doubt that you can lay down your life. And I know that no one other than Jesus Christ could take it back up again. In my mind Joseph Smith is trying to relate the nature of Jesus Christ, that he was able to give up his life and resurrect himself, please see John 10:17-18.

You may want to do some more research on the King Follett Discourse. Here is a good source - The King Follett Discourse: Joseph Smith’s Greatest Sermon in Historical Perspective

The King Follett Discourse was actually Joseph Smith's final general conference (The 14th Annual Conference), wherein he gave a 2.5 hour talk during Sunday session. It was given to an audience of around 20,000 people - the overwhelming number of which were LDS.

As to your question, Do I believe that only the Savior has a chance to really be like the Father? Yes and No. I agree with Joseph Smith's Statement:

I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation

The Savior will inherit a Kingdom and present it to the Father. Do I have a Kingdom to inherit? Not yet thats for sure. Do I have the potential to eventually do so? It is my hope.

He spoke in a grove west of the temple, I doubt there were 20,000 people there with the ability to listen to him without microphones and audio equipment. 20,000 would fill an average sized modern stadium. Several sources say that there were "several thousand".

If it is your hope to have a Kingdom then you would believe that it is possible and yet you are not the Savior of this world. Therefore, you do believe it is possible that a non-Savior can become God the Father. Or, you, maybe, believe there is and will only be one God the Father ever (of course, for us there is only one) throughout all existences. If one believes that, then they would also have to disbelieve the idea that we are truly spirit children of the Father. They would have to believe that we are simply given that title of "children" by adoption or some other means, without the full potential to be like Him.

[rameumptom]

I found something about this. For what its worth. Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation states that "It can hardly be accepted as fact that these wounds have remained in his hands, side, and feet all through the centuries from the time of his crucifixion and will remain until his Second Coming" His statement "will remain until" seems to indicated that after that time (ie the Second Coming) they will no longer persist.

While it is a nice quote, I'm not a big proponent of quoting the Joseph F, Joseph Fielding, Bruce R McConkie empire on gospel issues, unless supported by other quotes that are not so opinionated. They had lots of opinions. Some based on doctrine, many not.

[mikbone]

He spoke in a grove west of the temple, I doubt there were 20,000 people there with the ability to listen to him without microphones and audio equipment. 20,000 would fill an average sized modern stadium. Several sources say that there were "several thousand".

We are not sure on the total number but it was a large group of Saints during General Conference. Your previous post made it sound like it was a funeral speech to a non-lds group. Many current saints believe that It was one of the most beautiful and profound speeches that Joseph Smith ever gave, myslef included. But as you know there were many future apostate members there at the time which he alluded to during the discourse. My initial comment was primarily upon the paragraph:

We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon; ) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. April 7, 1844 - "The King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in the Times and Seasons Minutes

Wherein I was trying to point out that when Joseph Smith used the terms "lay down my life, and take it up again," he was directly referencing John 10:17-18 (I bolded the section above to emphasize the fact that Joseph Smith was referencing John) Which to me clearly states that Jesus can atone (sacrifice himself) and resurrect. So in my mind Joseph Smith is trying to state that Elohim also was a Savior...

If it is your hope to have a Kingdom then you would believe that it is possible and yet you are not the Savior of this world. Therefore, you do believe it is possible that a non-Savior can become God the Father. Or, you, maybe, believe there is and will only be one God the Father ever (of course, for us there is only one) throughout all existences. If one believes that, then they would also have to disbelieve the idea that we are truly spirit children of the Father. They would have to believe that we are simply given that title of "children" by adoption or some other means, without the full potential to be like Him.

Nope. There is another option.

Edited April 21, 2011 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

We are not sure on the total number but it was a large group of Saints during General Conference. Your previous post made it sound like it was a funeral speech to a non-lds group. Many current saints believe that It was one of the most beautiful and profound speeches that Joseph Smith ever gave, myslef included. But as you know there were many future apostate members there at the time which he alluded to during the discourse. My initial comment was primarily upon the paragraph:

We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon; ) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. April 7, 1844 - "The King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in the Times and Seasons Minutes

Wherein I was trying to point out that when Joseph Smith used the terms "lay down my life, and take it up again," he was directly referencing John 10:17-18 (I bolded the section above to emphasize the fact that Joseph Smith was referencing John) Which to me clearly states that Jesus can atone (sacrifice himself) and resurrect. So in my mind Joseph Smith is trying to state that Elohim also was a Savior...

Nope. There is another option.

Thanks for your responses. I am remaining open minded about this subject as much as I can with the limited information we have. I think Joseph Smith was wanting to give more information but because of both the persecutions and many members of the Church at that time being really new members and thinking about breaking away, he had to keep his message basic and almost repeat Bible phrases without explaining much further. Obviously, the Bible alone doesn't have all those explanations, Joseph Smith had to hold back giving everything.

Donald Q. Cannon wrote; "some who heard the King Follett Discourse were converts who had just joined the Church and had been raised in religions where the ideas Joseph taught in the King Follett Discourse would have been considered 'horrid blasphemy.' For some time prior to the spring of 1844, some of these had been dissatisfied with conditions in Nauvoo, and Joseph's actions and personality, new doctrines, and general disenchantment were leading more and more Saints into dissension or apostasy" (BYU Studies, Vol. 18, No. 2, p.187).

"They had arrived in Nauvoo knowing only the first principles, the Book of Mormon, and the gathering. They had no idea of the plurality of gods, plural marriage, temple ordinances, and other "mysteries", which were being taught at Nauvoo. This is understandable because Brigham Young had admonished the elders at October conference, 1841, 'on the importance of teaching abroad the first principles of the gospel, leaving the mysteries of the kingdom to be taught among the saints.'"

....

If the Son does what the Father does then I can say that the Father did what the Son has done. (sorry about the weird semantics)

Here is what the Son did, the atonement, playing with semantics 'at-one-ment'. I think Jesus summarized that well in His prayer in John 17; "21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

Through the atonement it is possible to be at 'one' with God and Jesus as they are one, by 'one' in the same way they are 'one'. If God, our Father passed through a similar experience and He being righteous was made one with His Savior and received His glory, then in essence He did it. The glory of the act of laying down His life and taking it back up again was given to Him, either by doing it Himself or by receiving that glory through His Savior, what is the difference?

I think this was the decision of the 'first estate' to say that we are willing to lay down our lives, to die, knowing that we will take it up again. The second estate being becoming one with our Savior and receiving all that the Father has and all that the Son has.

If the Father became one with His Savior and made perfect that way then he may not have been the one on the cross and therefore never had the scars on His body, but it was still done by Him in that He is now one with His Savior.

If we really don't believe we can become one with Christ, what is the point of the gospel. I think this is the final message of Christ, his final prayer. The "Father" encompasses all the line upon line steps that got Him to that point including the atonement and the shared glory of laying down his life to take it up again.

[mikbone]

We are both stating quite different things.

Primarily because of Joseph Smith's KFD, I have come to the conclusion that Elohim was once a Savior. Elohim set the example that Jehovah was able to follow. And in turn Jehovah has set an example for us that we may follow if we so choose.

It is my belief, that if we want to become like God is, that we have to go through the same steps that HE passed through. Joseph Smith stated it in quite simple terms.

I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day. April 7, 1844 - "King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in Times and Seasons Minutes

Joseph Smith wanted to reveal this truth to the Saints but he knew that he could not in public because of the apostates and weak minded members. Apparently they were unwilling to consider the concepts that he was trying to relate...

It is my belief that Joseph Smith was instructed that in order to become like God is, one must pass through a probationary state as a Savior. I know that this may seem like blasphemy to many, but if you read the KFD in contex it starts to make sense.

The obvious question then arises??? How can we become a Savior?

Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle's famous detective Sherlock Holmes said 'When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'

I believe that this mortal life is not our final test. There are probably many, many more forthcoming. If you wanna be a God you gotta earn it. And it aint gonna be easy.

[Seminarysnoozer]

We are both stating quite different things.

Primarily because of Joseph Smith's KFD, I have come to the conclusion that Elohim was once a Savior. Elohim set the example that Jehovah was able to follow. And in turn Jehovah has set an example for us that we may follow if we so choose.

It is my belief, that if we want to become like God is, that we have to go through the same steps that HE passed through. Joseph Smith stated it in quite simple terms.

I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day. April 7, 1844 - "King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in Times and Seasons Minutes

Joseph Smith wanted to reveal this truth to the Saints but he knew that he could not in public because of the apostates and weak minded members. Apparently they were unwilling to consider the concepts that he was trying to relate...

It is my belief that Joseph Smith was instructed that in order to become like God is, one must pass through a probationary state as a Savior. I know that this may seem like blasphemy to many, but if you read the KFD in contex it starts to make sense.

The obvious question then arises??? How can we become a Savior?

Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle's famous detective Sherlock Holmes said 'When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'

I believe that this mortal life is not our final test. There are probably many, many more forthcoming. If you wanna be a God you gotta earn it. And it aint gonna be easy.

I knew you were going to say that from previous posts. One further question then, how does this apply to women?

In most things we are taught in the gospel, we will be judged by the desire of our hearts. We should be willing to sacrifice all we have, in essence, lay down our lives. Even we are not asked to do particular things in this life, God will know what we are willing to do and it will count the same if there was not opportunity. From that, it is my belief that we do not have to actually experience all things to know all and yet have the same glory as if it was. We can say that is the case, for example, with those that are born with Down's Syndrome, etc.

From your Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle's quote, I would say you haven't eliminated the possibility that becoming "one" with Christ, for those in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom does not include all the priesthood power and eventual keys of a Savior. One of the eternal principles of this gospel that I see is the sharing of glory, sometimes referred to as inheritance. We don't have to 'make' our own inheritance, that would be a wage not inheritance.

[mikbone]

I knew you were going to say that from previous posts. One further question then, how does this apply to women?

I don't know. There is so little that has been revealed about Elohim's Spouse...

In most things we are taught in the gospel, we will be judged by the desire of our hearts. We should be willing to sacrifice all we have, in essence, lay down our lives. Even we are not asked to do particular things in this life, God will know what we are willing to do and it will count the same if there was not opportunity. From that, it is my belief that we do not have to actually experience all things to know all and yet have the same glory as if it was. We can say that is the case, for example, with those that are born with Down's Syndrome, etc.

From your Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle's quote, I would say you haven't eliminated the possibility that becoming "one" with Christ, for those in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom does not include all the priesthood power and eventual keys of a Savior. One of the eternal principles of this gospel that I see is the sharing of glory, sometimes referred to as inheritance. We don't have to 'make' our own inheritance, that would be a wage not inheritance.

We are taught that we will be judged by our thoughts, words, and actions.

Revelation 20:12, D&C 76:111, 1 Nephi 15:32, Abraham 3:25–28

D&C 137:9, Alma 41:3

Alma 12:14

Yes those with disabilities and such that have died before age 8 will be judged much more leniently. But as clearly stated in D&C 130:18-21: Those who learn and experience more in this life will have a great advantage in the world to come. Why would one want to have an advantage in the world to come??? Especially if we are just going to show up and accept an inheritance?

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.

Edited April 21, 2011 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't know. There is so little that has been revealed about Elohim's Spouse...

We are taught that we will be judged by our thoughts, words, and actions.

Revelation 20:12, D&C 76:111, 1 Nephi 15:32, Abraham 3:25–28

D&C 137:9, Alma 41:3

Alma 12:14

Yes those with disabilities and such that have died before age 8 will be judged much more leniently. But as clearly stated in D&C 130:18-21: Those who learn and experience more in this life will have a great advantage in the world to come. Why would one want to have an advantage in the world to come??? Especially if we are just going to show up and accept an inheritance?

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.

I wasn't trying to say that everything is inherited. I was trying to point out the opposite, that not everything is earned in an equal manner for everyone. I agree that learning will continue in the next life but I disagree with an idea that we will have to prove ourselves again in other trials outside this probationary state. I think if we are judged at the final judgment to be on the track to Godhood, then that will be it. There will be no possibility for a straying path from that point on. If the atonement truly is 'eternal' in its scope then if we take advantage of it here then there should be no reason to have to earn that kind of saving again or experience another fall.

The reason that experiences here will be to anybody's advantage would really only be the case if there are no other chances for these 'experiences'. I think that idea supports the fact that we won't have these kinds of experiences after passing through this state.

The scripture of much is given, much is required also supports the idea that various things are required for various situations but could result in the same reward. Jesus was assigned the role of Savior. I am assigned the role of listening to Jesus and following Him. Same reward in the end, if I meet my end of this arrangement, which is to be one with God as He is one with God and to have the same glory with God as He has with God. ... that at least was Jesus' wish and therefore makes it possible.

Can you please show me where you have found additional information about there being other probationary periods outside of this one (and outside of completing this one, i.e.- spirit world).

[mikbone]

I agree that learning will continue in the next life but I disagree with an idea that we will have to prove ourselves again in other trials outside this probationary state. I think if we are judged at the final judgment to be on the track to Godhood, then that will be it. There will be no possibility for a straying path from that point on. If the atonement truly is 'eternal' in its scope then if we take advantage of it here then there should be no reason to have to earn that kind of saving again or experience another fall.

This probationary state is very important. It is the one in which we can experience sin and learn to overcome it or not. But there is much learning and experience that we have to go through before we can become like God is.

Check out D&C 122: 5-7 and remember that in these verses that the Lord is communicating with Joseph Smith while incarcerated in Liberty Jail. Please focus on the last sentence in verse 7, "know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good." Then ask yourself why in the world would those hardships be for Joseph Smith's Good? Why will he benefit from the experience of having the very jaws of hell gape open after him???

Can you please show me where you have found additional information about there being other probationary periods outside of this one (and outside of completing this one, i.e.- spirit world).

Sure. Do you believe that the Holy Ghost is more advanced than we currently are. He is a member of the Goodhood afterall...

Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds on Sunday August 27, 1843 Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items"

Holy Ghost in Probationary State

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.

Joseph Smith, June 16 1844, as recorded in the George Laub Journal

But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again.

[Seminarysnoozer]

This probationary state is very important. It is the one in which we can experience sin and learn to overcome it or not. But there is much learning and experience that we have to go through before we can become like God is.

Check out D&C 122: 5-7 and remember that in these verses that the Lord is communicating with Joseph Smith while incarcerated in Liberty Jail. Please focus on the last sentence in verse 7, "know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good." Then ask yourself why in the world would those hardships be for Joseph Smith's Good? Why will he benefit from the experience of having the very jaws of hell gape open after him???

Sure. Do you believe that the Holy Ghost is more advanced than we currently are. He is a member of the Goodhood afterall...

Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds on Sunday August 27, 1843 Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items"

Holy Ghost in Probationary State

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.

Joseph Smith, June 16 1844, as recorded in the George Laub Journal

But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again.

From those same quotes it says under reference 4; "The statement evidently refers to the fact that the Holy Ghost has yet to receive a mortal body. The word "probationary" referring to all who have not received the resurrection"

So, that would still fall under this probationary period, not another one.

From the point of our 'first estate' test through the completion of the 'second estate' I suppose could be called a probationary period. .... is there a "third", "fourth" estate? From those quotes it sounds like the Holy Ghost is still between the first and second estates.

[Seminarysnoozer]

This probationary state is very important. It is the one in which we can experience sin and learn to overcome it or not. But there is much learning and experience that we have to go through before we can become like God is.

Check out D&C 122: 5-7 and remember that in these verses that the Lord is communicating with Joseph Smith while incarcerated in Liberty Jail. Please focus on the last sentence in verse 7, "know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good." Then ask yourself why in the world would those hardships be for Joseph Smith's Good? Why will he benefit from the experience of having the very jaws of hell gape open after him???

I agree with continued learning but I don't know about continued trials and tests.

Why anyone learns from the specific experience they have in this life is something that we don't know and even the person themselves would have to be spiritual in tune to barely understand the meaning of why they have to go through things in this life. That is part of the test of faith we face here. Having faith building experiences will allow us to learn faster in the next life.

Some people, though, apparently have shown their valiance sufficiently in the pre-earthly life that not much of a test of faith is necessary, for whatever reason. Everyone has been given a different set of circumstances that I think will be sufficient, combined with the things that take place in the spirit world to make a final decision about their eternal status. That is the plan of Salvation that I know, I don't know of other off-shoots that say we may some day alter our potential by passing through other probationary states. I don't think learning has to continue in a place or circumstances where failure is an option or turning away from the course is an option after this life. I think 'come unto my rest' means just that, no more trials. Work yes, learning yes, but not by trial and error and not by 'refiner's fire' techniques.

[mikbone]

From those same quotes it says under reference 4; "The statement evidently refers to the fact that the Holy Ghost has yet to receive a mortal body. The word "probationary" referring to all who have not received the resurrection"

So, that would still fall under this probationary period, not another one.

From the point of our 'first estate' test through the completion of the 'second estate' I suppose could be called a probationary period. .... is there a "third", "fourth" estate? From those quotes it sounds like the Holy Ghost is still between the first and second estates.

Is the Holy Ghost ahead of us or equal with us? The Joseph Smith quotes clearly state the the Holy Ghost will have the opportunity to become a mortal Savior. Not just go through mortality like you and me. This leads to only 2 options that I can think of. Either Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost are traveling a seperate path that we cannot follow. Or they are ahead of us on the same pathway that we follow. I believe that there is only one pathway. This pathway leads to Exaltation and Eternal lives 132:24, although there are many side paths that lead away from the ultimate destination...

I agree with continued learning but I don't know about continued trials and tests.

Why anyone learns from the specific experience they have in this life is something that we don't know and even the person themselves would have to be spiritual in tune to barely understand the meaning of why they have to go through things in this life. That is part of the test of faith we face here. Having faith building experiences will allow us to learn faster in the next life.

Some people, though, apparently have shown their valiance sufficiently in the pre-earthly life that not much of a test of faith is necessary, for whatever reason. Everyone has been given a different set of circumstances that I think will be sufficient, combined with the things that take place in the spirit world to make a final decision about their eternal status. That is the plan of Salvation that I know, I don't know of other off-shoots that say we may some day alter our potential by passing through other probationary states. I don't think learning has to continue in a place or circumstances where failure is an option or turning away from the course is an option after this life. I think 'come unto my rest' means just that, no more trials. Work yes, learning yes, but not by trial and error and not by 'refiner's fire' techniques.

I appreciate your stance. And I wholeheartedly believe that you will be able to "rest" if you so choose.

But from my understanding of the Lord, His rest seems alot like work (Moses 1:39).

Edited April 23, 2011 by mikbone