Electric Chair public execution question

[Fira]

LWF: Is capital punishment contrary to the word of God?

I know The Holy Bible condones (okays) capital punishment.

However if public executions ever exist again and an innocent person gets accused of murder(s)/other(s)/both and sentenced to death and the innocent accused chooses the electric chair, would God, The Holy Bible, both condemn such?

[Dravin]

You're kinda jumbling three issues together.

1) The execution of an innocent (presumably believed to be guilty).

2) Public executions.

3) The electric chair.

Is there any particular reason you've placed this in the open forums? As it stands the topic isn't particularly sensitive, did you plan of leading the thread somewhere that you think this forum is required?

[Fira]

Reason: For (atleast hopefully) easiest answerings.

The Required Question: Yes. Basically since The Electric Chair may or may not be suitable for under 18 I wanted to be better safe than sorry so I posted it in Open Forums to reduce offenses as much as possible.

[pam]

This doesn't need to be in open forum. I think even 14 year olds (which is the minimum age for this site) can handle a discussion about capital punishment.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I'm part of a minority of Catholics that believe capital punishment for capital crimes is not only justifiable, but works to affirm the sanctity of human life.

That said, public executions? Absolutely not! During the French Revolution, beheadings were done as a public spectacle, a show that became in itself a machine that needed to be fed a consistant supply of victims. Children watched the whole macabre ordeal with morbid fascination, speculating on how long the head remained alive after severed from the torso. French society was sickened right to the soul because of this practice much like Roman society was sickened by the gladiator events.

I do believe in viewing rooms or CCTV for family and those having a justifiable interest in seeing justice brought to fruition.

In regard to innocent persons, you note correctly that the Bible condones capital punishment and that in a day when court systems didn't rigorously protect the rights of the defendent, science was primitive, and crime scene investigations didn't occur. God, in his wisdom, commanded capital punishment in a time when determining guilt or innocence was far more difficult and relied more on witness accounts than forensic evidence. It's a sad fact that there were almost certainly a percentage of people executed who were innocent.

Today, while it's still possible for this to happen, the chances of that happening, at least here in America, are remote. Many people who point to the new rash of people being exhonorated by re-examination of DNA evidence miss an important point. In many of those cases, the new evidence only introduced a reasonable doubt, enough to get a conviction overturned. What this means in real terms is that people are being exhonorated by DNA evidence (or lack) who are likely to be guilty of the crime in spite. Even so, my suggestion is not to scrap capital punishment, but rather to work relentlessly to improve our justice system to make mistakes even more unlikely.

[NeuroTypical]

LDS doctrine on the matter pretty much is summed up by "Governments are for man, and you're ok following just laws that man comes up with." Man comes up with corporal punishment laws.

I'm also grateful that doctrine backs up our right to self defense:

Doctrine and Covenants 134:11 We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded.

[marshac]

Personally i'm 100% against capital punishment- numerous cases have arisen where an executed person was later found to be totally innocent- this is too high of a price to pay for "justice".

As for the electric chair- wow- what a barbaric way to execute someone. Even a firing squad is more humane. Remember- the sentence is 'death', not a 'slow amazingly painful excruciating death'- in fact, one could argue that the Constitution expressly prohibits such an awful death in its prohibition of 'cruel' punishment. I recognize that 'society' is comprised of more than just one person (me), and even though I find the practice of executions repugnant, I wish that when they DO take place, that we applied a little bit more modern science into it... for example-

1. Use an anesthetic induction agent like propofol

2. Once the person is out (<5 seconds), then administer a high dose of phenobarbital or some other CNS depressant

3. Wait

The person would die without pain and without the horror of 'watching' themselves die.

Seriously- we use better drugs at the local pound than we use on human executions.

[Elphaba]

Today, while it's still possible for this to happen, the chances of that happening, at least here in America, are remote.

What acceptable number of innocent people executed equals "remote"?

Many people who point to the new rash of people being exhonorated by re-examination of DNA evidence miss an important point. In many of those cases, the new evidence only introduced a reasonable doubt, enough to get a conviction overturned.

And many of those sentenced to die were released because they were proven to be completely innocent, even among those who confessed.

As far as I'm concerned, the chance that even one innocent human being could be executed makes capital punishment barbaric.

Elphaba

Edited May 1, 2011 by Elphaba

[Backroads]

I am for capital punishment in extreme circumstances. A

Against electric chair-- The Green Mile did a number on me.

Though the botched injection scene on Law-Abiding Citizen wasn't pretty, either.

And I promise my opinion is not based on movies; I just tend to think in terms of stories.

[Dravin]

As for the electric chair- wow- what a barbaric way to execute someone.

Thank the marketing genius of the Wizard of Menlo Park.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Dravin

[Just_A_Guy]

Marshac, isn't there some literature suggesting that the current drug of choice for legal injection (potassium chloride) actually causes severe pain as it spreads through the body?

[marshac]

Marshac, isn't there some literature suggesting that the current drug of choice for legal injection (potassium chloride) actually causes severe pain as it spreads through the body?

I believe that's what recent court cases have found, and the reason for a new drug protocol in many states. I believe that KCl was the last drug to be administered in the old protocol as a means to stop the heart, but this was following an injection of a paralytic... the purpose of the paralytic of course isn't for the convict being executed, but to make the process easier for the witnesses... the result of course is that it's probable that more than one person was conscious when the KCl was administered, but unable to do anything due to the effects of the paralytic.

There are old stories of people 'waking up' during surgery and going through the entire process unable to scream due to the effects of the paralytic that's given after induction. Fortunately we now use a system called BIS which monitors a patient and greatly reduces the odds of this happening these days.

Even if the desired outcome is death, nobody should be forced to endure that.

In regards to the Hippocratic Oath

For the first time in our tradition there was a complete separation between killing and curing. Throughout the primitive world, the doctor and the sorcerer tended to be the same person. He with the power to kill had power to cure, including specially the undoing of his own killing activities. He who had the power to cure would necessarily also be able to kill... With the Greeks the distinction was made clear. One profession, the followers of Asclepius, were to be dedicated completely to life under all circumstances, regardless of rank, age or intellect – the life of a slave, the life of the Emperor, the life of a foreign man, the life of a defective child...

This is why doctors should not participate in executions- they're sworn to protect life and keep it sacred- participating in an execution is contrary to everything a modern physician stands for and a perversion of the profession... and it's not just me saying this- the AMA has made similar statements as well.

[Bini]

In short, I support Capitol Punishment.

[marshac]

In short, I support Capitol Punishment.

I do too- lifetime politicians just aren't good for society.

[Bini]

I do too- lifetime politicians just aren't good for society.

Neither is reality TV.

[believer]

"thou shall not kill" So no to that. And I fear public pressure to find the bad guy has led to too innocent people being convicted and sentenced to death.

The Innocence Project - Know the Cases

Utah recently executed someone by firing squad. Is this why you are questioning the electric chair?

Video: Death row inmate executed by Utah firing squad | World news | guardian.co.uk

Here's an appropriate vision of the future. "Citizen Rule" "Electric chair Public Execution" & "Mormon Extremists at Camp Joe Smith"

YouTube - Starship Troopers newsreel 1

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

What acceptable number of innocent people executed equals "remote"?And many of those sentenced to die were released because they were proven to be completely innocent, even among those who confessed.

As far as I'm concerned, the chance that even one innocent human being could be executed makes capital punishment barbaric.

Elphaba

The Innocence Project is mostly a sham. Their tactic is to try to cast enough reasonable doubt on a conviction to get a retrial. More often than not, the accused is not entirely exhonorated in the sense that it's clear he's not guilty of the crime. Rather, the element of reasonable doubt is introduced to make the prior conviction less certain. The overturning of many of these convictions follows the appearance of doubt rather than a slam dunk determination of innocence.

With that said, of course the justice system is not perfect and it's likely that there are people in prison right now that shouldn't be. To follow your logic is to stop incarcerating people at all for fear that someone could be falsely incarcerated. For some reason, God left the pursuit of justice to man even with our glaring shortcomings. Punishments range all the way up to capital punishment...even though the possibility remains of an innocent person being executed. My point was to contrast the primitive methods available to determine guilt or innocence when God first instituted capital punishment with Noah immediately following the flood to our modern day CSI capabilities and evolved court system that affords the accused a vigorous defense. If man was to be entrusted with this form of punishment back in Noah's day, how much more today when we have greatly reduced the chance of false convictions?

My idea of barbaric is a society that values life so little that it's legal to snuff out the lives of the unborn and when henious murders take place, we fall short of responding with the most severe sanction available to us. In doing so, we make abundantly clear that life is not precious and the wrongful taking of life not deserving of an equally grave response. Barbaric is the American Left that values the lives of unscrupled murderers but discards the lives of the most innocent among us. How utterly perverse!

[marshac]

To follow your logic is to stop incarcerating people at all for fear that someone could be falsely incarcerated.

Hardly. A person can be released from prison, but it's beyond our powers to bring them back to life. Doing away with the death penalty is simply an acknowledgement of our inherent fallibility as humans.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

"thou shall not kill" So no to that. And I fear public pressure to find the bad guy has led to too innocent people being convicted and sentenced to death.

The Innocence Project - Know the Cases

Utah recently executed someone by firing squad. Is this why you are questioning the electric chair?

Video: Death row inmate executed by Utah firing squad | World news | guardian.co.uk

Here's an appropriate vision of the future. "Citizen Rule" "Electric chair Public Execution" & "Mormon Extremists at Camp Joe Smith"

YouTube - Starship Troopers newsreel 1

Greetings, fellow Catholic!

I'm sorry to say we disagree on this issue. Contrary to popular opinion among Catholics, it's not Church teaching to forbid capital punishment. The overwhelming majority of Catholics opposing capital punishment is a matter of popular sentiment rather than doctrine. Even so, I understand and respect the many Catholics including bishops and cardinals who oppose capital punishment. I believe they do so out of a sense of moral conviction. It is also with moral conviction of equal profundity that I support capital punishment and believe it to be the best way to defend life.

On a separate issue directed to anyone interested, I don't believe in the electric chair because I believe it's our duty to deliver a murderer to the judgement seat of the Almighty in the most painless manner available to us. I don't entertain the notion that if the victim suffered a cruel and lingering death that the perpetrator should suffer likewise. It's humbling for us to realize that we are imperfect dispensers of justice and so we defer full judgement to the Judge of all mankind who alone determines the fate of men. Executions should be painless as possible and any balance of justice will be carried out in the age to come.

[Just_A_Guy]

The Innocence Project is mostly a sham. Their tactic is to try to cast enough reasonable doubt on a conviction to get a retrial. More often than not, the accused is not entirely exhonorated in the sense that it's clear he's not guilty of the crime. Rather, the element of reasonable doubt is introduced to make the prior conviction less certain. The overturning of many of these convictions follows the appearance of doubt rather than a slam dunk determination of innocence.

But, if there's reasonable doubt they shouldn't have been convicted in the first place--let alone executed.

[i'm in favor of capital punishment, if administered properly; but I also have friends who work for the local branch of the Innocence Project. And, let's be blunt: sometimes prosecutors do overreach, and sometimes police officers do fabricate evidence.]

[marshac]

But, if there's reasonable doubt they shouldn't have been convicted in the first place--let alone executed.

Good point - "beyond a reasonable doubt" is more than just a phrase, it's actually the level required for conviction. If you appeal a speeding ticket, all the judge needs is a "preponderance of the evidence" which is a much lower bar to clear.

Regardless- the concept of "lets kill them and let God sort things out" is frightening to hear from any religious person. I'm fairly sure some of our 'buddies' in the middle east have that same viewpoint.

[Elphaba]

To follow your logic is to stop incarcerating people at all for fear that someone could be falsely incarcerated.

As Marshac already pointed out, that is nonsense. The issue is death, and once a person has been put to death s/he cannot be brought back to life.

Barbaric is the American Left that values the lives of unscrupled murderers but discards the lives of the most innocent among us. How utterly perverse!

So it's perverse if it's an innocent unborn but it's not perverse if it's an innocent born? How utterly hypocritical.

Elphaba

Edited May 2, 2011 by Elphaba

[RipplecutBuddha]

Why are we so concerned for the humane nature of capitol punishment?? Was public stoning in the OT expressly humane?? I happen to think a firing squad is just fine. The measure of pain the guilty feels is still a minute fraction of the pain he/she has caused by their actions. I happen to think they are getting off easy. My idea of true capitol punishment is making the guilty pay for the support of the survivors of their crimes, but I come from a different philosophy.

As for the exocution of innocents, yes it is horrible, but here's the thing, nothing in this world is perfect, and God knew about this specific problem a long time ago. I guarantee he's got a way to set things right in those cases. We have to enforce laws to protect the citizens. Mistakes will be made in that process. God's got our back on this.

[Bini]

Well said, Ripplecutbuddha. I concur!

[Blackmarch]

LWF: Is capital punishment contrary to the word of God?

I know The Holy Bible condones (okays) capital punishment.

However if public executions ever exist again and an innocent person gets accused of murder(s)/other(s)/both and sentenced to death and the innocent accused chooses the electric chair, would God, The Holy Bible, both condemn such?

only if those who were judging did not do all they could to honestly judge.

AS for puyblic executions I imagine it would depend on the reason for them being public whether or not they would be condemned.