Question that has been on our minds

[LDSJewess]

Hello,

My husband and I have been having a lot of discussions about the stand the church takes on a number of issues and to what degree. We are just returning after a decade of inactivity.

Please do not think this question is being judgemental about any member. It is not meant to be in any way, but just poses questions and how it may or may not apply to us as a couple in the future.

The question came up because we as I said have recently returned and if we remain active, we would want to be entirely active which would include eventually going to Temple.

We discussed what would be asked of us in the future as was once asked before we went to the Temple more than 15 years ago.

We don't have a problem with tithing (easier when the kids are grown and out of college), living a chaste life, (at our age there are many other interests), words of wisdom, (no problem I wouldn't drink, smoke, do drugs, cafeen or anything that isn't healthy (which includes refraining from white cread, sugar, pork, shell fish and sodeas etc: (at our age I think we want to live a healthy quality life. But there is one question that has been the topic of discussion.....the wearing of the garments. Sigh!!!!! My husband finds them hot (we live in a very warm climate), and at our advanced years we do not dress immodestly, but many modest clothing items do not fit well under what we feel are comfortable modest clothing. So my husband says what happens if down the road we are asked the question about wearing garments day and night since our endowments. The answer would be no. We wore them to church and of course to Temple but not day and night and certainly not since our period of being inactive. So this means we would be denied a recommend? And thus be considered unworthy?

So again, not to judge, but we were discussing today the marriage of Marie Osmond to her first husband. We are very happy for her. But we have to wonder how she got that recommend to be married in the temple since it is evident from photos of her that no way was she wearing garments on dancing with the stars or even in nutri system ads. She was not dressed immodestly, but the cut iof her clothing would not have concealed the garments. So we wonder, since she does not wear garments night and day and would have to answer no in an interview how she got the recommend? Rather we are trying to wonder how this would apply to us in the future.

Anyway, any advice, input etc: would give us food for thought. It may even seem petty to some, but to us it's a question as important as the questions of those who have other issues with relationships, words of wisdom, tithing etc:

[skippy740]

Ballroom dancing is one activity where garments can be removed. (Even BYU dancers won't wear them). Swimming is another activity or sport. For "acting" jobs, you need to wear what the director tells you. I remember an interview with Steve Young where he said that he didn't wear them while playing football.

There are other fabrics available. When the time comes, you just might need to get a "variety pack" (for lack of a better word) and see what would be most comfortable.

We are commanded to wear the garment at all times. We will be asked that question when we renew our temple recommends as well.

[pam]

You don't see BYU basketball players wearing garments either. Many of them have been through the temple.

As Skippy mentioned, there are times when wearing garments is not feasible and isn't appropriate either.

As for Marie Osmond, she was in costume. I would even say her Nutri-system attire was costume as it was to show a more svelte figure. Not immodest by any means..but I get what you are saying. I'm sure that's what she was directed to wear.

[Vort]

I have no opinion re: Marie Osmond. In general, we make sacred covenants and then we keep them. Wearing the garment night and day is a small part of our temple covenants. Perhaps it seems like a large sacrifice. If you make that covenant and keep it faithfully, I am confident that you will find it a minor inconvenience at most. Compared to, for example, wearing a yarmulke at all times, I would think that wearing knee-length underwear is a minor inconvenience at worst.

My advice would be: Continue in your present path back to full activity. When the time comes for temple attendance and covenants, cross that bridge at that time. You will indeed need to make (and hopefully keep) that temple covenant; but I believe your faith and the gift of the Holy Ghost will strengthen you to make that sacrifice, however large or small it may seem to you.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Vort
tpyo

[LDSJewess]

Thanks,

I knew about the swimming and basketball part, (did not know about the ballroom dancing etc:)

I happen to be a big fan of Marie Osmond and her galleries of photos are some of her working and others accepting awards or simply photos that were captured in magazines etc: in every day life as is the case is celebrities.

I have never seen Marie wear anything that I would consider immodest, and being over 60 I don't see myself wanting to wear a bikini anytime soon.

But every day wear Marie has been photographed wearing in a non working envoronment incouded sleeveless dresses, or tops and dresses with sleeves sheer to the shoulder, skirts above the knee (not minis) but all the above would not conceal garments. When my husband was still working he wore bermuda shorts as a part of his uniform. Not a requirement as long pants were ann option but in 90 degree humidity not an option for him. We are now in a business where evening wear and resort wear is worn and modest yes, but some items with shorts or items that again modest but not so covering as to conceal. Something we will need to work out of we continue on, but it helps to get perspective.

We are a little new in our returning to church to feel comfortable with talking to the Bishop (who is younger than our kids) about our under garments. Thank goodness for forums like this.

[LDSJewess]

Thanks Vort,

It is interesting that you mentioned the yarmulke because that is not even a biblical requirement (although a talit is).

Even so, aside from Orthodox Jews; many conservative and perhaps most Reform Jews only wear a talit on High Holy days, and the Rabbi from the synagogue I attended never wears a yarmulke at all (Reform). I think in the case of Judaism it is a matter of how one wishes to worship. And although perhaps some Orthodox Jews will say that the non-Orthodox are not practicing Judaism, there is no mention ever of "worthiness" or lack thereof.

This was a pitfall for both of us before. Perhaps the other thinks are non issues because keeping commandments including dietary laws was a given but never had to deal with being commanded what to wear for fear of not being worthy in the eyes of God. I'm sure this will be something we will be discussing over time.

Thanks for your encouragement and well wishes.

[volgadon]

My husband finds them hot (we live in a very warm climate),

My last summer in Israel I worked in a factory in Ashdod, that is, along the southern coastal strip. Wearing garments was inconvenient to say the least, but I had made a covenant with the Lord.

I'm not judging, nor do I want to sound holier-than-thou. What matters is one's attitude.

Glad you are both coming back.

[classylady]

I don't do well with heat, so I understand your concern about wearing garments during the summer. For me what helps is to wear light clothing during the summer, but still allows me to wear garments. There are different garment fabrics that help me stay cooler. When you get to the time where you will be purchasing them, look at the different fabrics, and maybe even purchase different fabrics to see what would work best for you.

Do you have any LDS friends or family? They can also be a help in your reactivation.

[kayne]

two bits of info for you that may help in the matter.

1. having seen Satan come after me in my sleep on more than one occassion. Garments i have learned even on the night i got them nullfy his power to even bug me much in my sleep. so for me that helps quite a bit.

2. im from a hot climate insane humidity as well. well im in utah at school so its not bad but i got them in the middle of july which is a brutal part of the year for heat in south carolina. well i certainly kind of did complain despite point number 1 but then my inlaw told me something interesting. garments are a protection for you and if your too hot well they can keep you cool too. and i thought about that and thought about it that way you know what hes right. garments are a protection so if im too hot why cant they keep me cool. since then the heat while horrid i dont feel the strain of a second shirt or to the knees underwear. so think of it that way.

garments serve more than just what i said but more or less think of it that way. conversly while in the winter time ive thought of them as a need for extra heat so ive stayed a bit warmer in a far colder climate than im used to.

[Guest saintish]

I have had trouble with my wife and the garment issue so i can understand where you are coming from. I think what you need to remember is that YOU made the covenant to wear the garment day and night. No one is forceing you to wear the garment, it is something you take upon yourself. When you dont wear it you are breaking your promise to the lord.

You might ask, "why does the lord ask me to do this?" and "why is it so important to him?" the answer is, it doesnt matter why so long as you have faith that it is what the lord has asked.

[Carl62]

When you dont wear it you are breaking your promise to the lord.

So when is it that you are allowed to not wear the garments and not be breaking your promise to God? So were do we draw the line as to when it is and isn't appropriate to wear them? Is this left to each and every individual to decide or are there hardcore yes's and no's as to when we can or can't? Just curious as to where the line is on all of this.

[Guest]

So when is it that you are allowed to not wear the garments and not be breaking your promise to God? So were do we draw the line as to when it is and isn't appropriate to wear them? Is this left to each and every individual to decide or are there hardcore yes's and no's as to when we can or can't? Just curious as to where the line is on all of this.

It's between you and God.

If you can honestly say Yes when asked on the Temple Recommend Interview, "Do you wear your garments?", then you're good to go.

It's kinda like tithing...

And, just to point something out... when you're in that Interview, you can't really say, "If Marie Osmond can claim she wears garments, then I should be able to claim I wear one too.". Marie Osmond's temple recommend is her Bishop and Stake President's responsibility to issue. It has no bearing on your qualification.

Edited May 18, 2011 by anatess

[Guest saintish]

So when is it that you are allowed to not wear the garments and not be breaking your promise to God? So were do we draw the line as to when it is and isn't appropriate to wear them? Is this left to each and every individual to decide or are there hardcore yes's and no's as to when we can or can't? Just curious as to where the line is on all of this.

I believe that has been stated before in this thread, generally it is when you swim, workout, dance, playsports etc. and as also has been said bottom line is it is between you and G_d. I you can honestly say that you cant resonablly wear the garment then your probably ok. we also have prophets who have given us clairification, such as it is not appropriate to only wear part of the garment or to remove it for yard work.

[Backroads]

I like the "variety pack" idea. The Church seems to take all sorts of considerations into mind when it comes to the garments, and I would daresay there's material that will work for you.

I heard somewhere that in the early days of the Church the garments were only for the temple, etc. Which would admittedly be convenient, but that is currently not how it works.

I'm fairly new to the garment, but I didn't have too much trouble adjusting aside from the fact my underwear was less cute. Beforehand I had picked up all the advice on what materials to wear where, and so far I'm happy. I don't exercise in them, etc.

[HiJolly]

I draw the line where someone chooses not to sleep in their garments, and also chooses to spend time beyond sports, bathing, sex, and some work(modelling, etc.) out of their garments. OTOH, I've actually heard people say they *bathe* or *shower* in their garments. When I get to that point, just call the men in white coats and haul me off to the loony bin.

HJ

[Vort]

I draw the line where someone chooses not to sleep in their garments, and also chooses to spend time beyond sports, bathing, sex, and some work(modelling, etc.) out of their garments. OTOH, I've actually heard people say they *bathe* or *shower* in their garments. When I get to that point, just call the men in white coats and haul me off to the loony bin.

I recall one older couple proudly recalling how "all of our children were conceived within the bond of the sacred garment", something that would be nigh impossible with today's two-piece design...and that, in any case, doesn't seem to me something to take pride in...

[LDSJewess]

Thanks so much for all of the responses.

My main concern was the recommend interview question that asks "Are you wearing the garments SINCE YOUR ENDOWMENT day and night."

Ok I do understand that there are times when it is not required or even considered inappropriate to wear them.

I heard about the bathing and all that as well and personally think that if people want to do that and it gives them a sense of security then that is fine for them.

Our concern was more about someone (Bishop or S. Prez) determining our worthiness based on how and when we wear out underwear rathwer than what is in our heart and whether we have a testimony and faith in our Heavenly Father.

For is this really goes beyond clothing style and activities. It is about what we feel in our hearts and souls. Although my husband feels the same as I do, I will now speak for myself. I KNOW my Heavenly Father loves me unconditionally and will protect me ALWAYS and have my best interests at heart ALWAYS. I see Heavenly Father as the perfect parent. And if this is so and I whoheartedly believe it is, then I can be sure of this. We human parents love our children beyond measure and we are imperfect as people and as parents. Even so we would not depart from our children or cast them away or consider them unworthy in any way at all, no less for what they were wearing. We love them and we guide them and we tell them what is appropriate and teach them right and wrong but we NEVER consider them unworthy.

I KNOW I will be unconditionally loved and protected ALWAYS and I will always be worthy in the eyes of God. Nothing can ever take that away, even during the time I was not going to church. This is my testimony and it is an unshakable one based on my personal relationship with God over many years here on earth and likely before.

We have decided to come back to the church because we feel that we can do God's work and study, teach, learn and pray among others who have the same love and desire to serve God.

But we don't want to be considered "unworthy" by another human being albeit called to his position, because there is lack of understanding about the of the garment issue.

This of course will be discussed further when and if the time is appropriate. But since it has come up in conversation between my husband and I, I decided to get some input here.

Thanks again.

[Vort]

Something else to consider, LDSJewess:

The story is told of a man caught in a flood. A boat comes by to get him from the roof of his house, but he waves them off, saying, "I have faith that God will protect me!" Later, a canoe comes by, but he refuses to get in, saying, "I have faith that God will protect me!" As the waters threaten to engulf his house, a helicopter comes in to pluck him from his roof. Again, he refuses, saying, "I have faith that God will protect me!" Of course, he is caught up in the flood and dies. When he meets God, the man says in a hurt tone, "I had faith in you, God! Why didn't you protect me?" To which God answers, "What do you mean? I sent two boats and a helicopter!"

You say that you are sure that God loves you unconditionally and will protect you. But the garment is a protection to us, spiritually and (many have testified) even physically. If a loving God has given you the means for protection but you refuse to take advantage of that means because you consider it an encumbrance (or whatever), that doesn't say anything about God's love.

[Guest saintish]

"But we don't want to be considered "unworthy" by another human being albeit called to his position, because there is lack of understanding about the of the garment issue."

Well first off it is God that sets the standards of worthiness to enter the temple not the stake president or bishop, not only that but just because you don't wear your garments day and night doesn't mean your automatically considered unworthy. most likely the bishop will ask why you dont wear then and etheir say it is ok or say try harder to wear them.

secondly, i think you are confusing being worthy to hold a temple recommend with G_d loving you. you are right G_d will love you the same wether or not you wear garments day and night, just as he loves non members and members alike. the reccomend question is simply seeing if you are living up to the promises you made to G_d.

[rameumptom]

The bishop has a statement they are supposed to read during the temple recommend interview regarding the wearing of the garment. Perhaps you should speak with your bishop, and he can bring that statement out for you to consider.

[mnn727]

Living in Texas the mesh garments have been a God-send (literally perhaps)

There's no way I could wear cotton in July or Aug here.

[kayne]

Something else to consider, LDSJewess:

The story is told of a man caught in a flood. A boat comes by to get him from the roof of his house, but he waves them off, saying, "I have faith that God will protect me!" Later, a canoe comes by, but he refuses to get in, saying, "I have faith that God will protect me!" As the waters threaten to engulf his house, a helicopter comes in to pluck him from his roof. Again, he refuses, saying, "I have faith that God will protect me!" Of course, he is caught up in the flood and dies. When he meets God, the man says in a hurt tone, "I had faith in you, God! Why didn't you protect me?" To which God answers, "What do you mean? I sent two boats and a helicopter!"

You say that you are sure that God loves you unconditionally and will protect you. But the garment is a protection to us, spiritually and (many have testified) even physically. If a loving God has given you the means for protection but you refuse to take advantage of that means because you consider it an encumbrance (or whatever), that doesn't say anything about God's love.

where did that story come from? ive heard it a lot and i have no idea where it came from.

and perhaps it has been so long since youve been to the temple you dont entirely remeber it but the garment is part of the deal in fact a pretty big part of the deal. and not wearing i would think could disqualify you for going back to the temple. even if it doesnt its something you certainly you need to try and get used to having on again. ultimately far more good will come of it than not having it on

[skippy740]

The garment is a physical reminder and manifestation of the covenants and blessings you receive in the temple.

How often you wear the garment and how you treat the garment is in similitude of how you revere, respect and honor the covenants you made in the House of the Lord.

The more reasons you find to wear the garment (than not wear it) shows your heart and mind is towards following and honoring your covenants.

If you toss your garments on the floor... it's like (to me) tossing your covenants aside and possibly even trampling them under your feet.

God will not be mocked by His covenant people.

It may be inconvenient and possibly even irritating. Find ways to honor your covenants, than not honor them.

When asked if you are wearing the garment day and night - you need to simply feel comfortable saying that you are while being totally honest about it. Just because it takes me 1/2 hour to shower and get ready in the morning (without wearing the garment) doesn't mean that I'm not comfortable in saying that I wear the garment day and night. I do. It's just that I don't rush to put it on when I turn the shower off, ya know?

[RipplecutBuddha]

As far as finding garments that are comfortable, they are available in a wide variety of fabrics, some heavier than others. There are even a couple specifically made for keeping the wearer cool and keeping moisture away from the skin. If you go to the beehive clothing center, they'll be able to show you samples of what each fabric is like.

My suggestion is once you have your recommend current, buy a couple sets of garments in a couple different fabrics and see what works best.

[Carl62]

I believe that has been stated before in this thread, generally it is when you swim, workout, dance, playsports etc. and as also has been said bottom line is it is between you and G_d. I you can honestly say that you cant resonablly wear the garment then your probably ok. we also have prophets who have given us clairification, such as it is not appropriate to only wear part of the garment or to remove it for yard work.

For me, this is exactly where the confusion sets in. Where are the references from the GA's that say we don't have to wear them during sports or have to wear them for yard work? And why would there need to be any yes's and no's from GA's if this is supposed to be strictly between God and myself? And why are some sports o.k. and others not? Again, where is the line drawn on this? Dancing is o.k. but if I'm working up a sweat in the yard all day then that's not? Don't understand that. Just simply trying to get some clarification on this because the lines on this seem to be at the very least blurry.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Carl62