Is Time Out Sufficient ?

[Winnie G]

There are days like today were I just want spanking to come back,

A good swat on the bum not beating the kid but a Hay wake up lift off the grown swat!

Its Canada Day, like the 4th of July. We do the same things but the government gives away a lot more in entertainment then fire works.

National Parks are free for the day bands play entertainers free cake flags and so on. Good times.

Well we went to a national park today with two other families. We are all friends, military families non-members. Two of us have grown children and one does not.

Two boys the monsters of the block. You Get my drift.

Whinny miserable per teen boys that beat on each other and would not know a manner if it hit them in the head.

The two darlings were stretched out on one of our lounge chairs and their mother came back from a short shopping trip to a gift shop were she bought these minions stuffed bears. They did thank their mother un till someone says “what to you say?”

She sat at the end of the chair and the darlings gave her a swift kick in the lower back!

She had back surgery last winter that almost left her in a wheel chair. I saw the look on her face and I shouted That’s it get off that chair! Do you have any idea what you done to your mother! They just hit each other. She limped off to another chair and I backed off.

Not an I’m sorry or any apology, they did not even take responsibility for what they did.

She later apologized to me. Can you believe that!

She is what I call a passive mother. She angoras the action and it will go away.

Were my sons would not sit down for a week.

So later at dinner back at the other family’s home our friend asked not the mother.

Were you a strict parent? Our 21-year-old son met up with us there for dinner he had to work today. It came around to the boys kicking the mother. Our son who also babysits them from time to time shot his head around and said “my mother would have kicked my @##! I said son when was the last time I spanked you? He said after thinking I cant remember??? I said well I did at times but you weren’t much older then five. “You put a snake down your pants” I did not have to strike you much after that age you know better then to do something so wrong it would be called for. They did have time out back then to you know. Our host asked him ‘how did you know”? “Mom never says something she does not mean”. If those young men had been my sons they would have known I would have done something. My sons would have been chucked in to the bushes and told to stay there if they wanted to sit or stand up the rest of the day.

These boys are still going to the fireworks tonight, no consequences. My son even asked the mother if she wanted to leave the boys at home for what they did he would skip the fireworks. She said no but thanks for asking.

So is a time out sufficient for such a dangerous act of violence?

My blood just about squirting out my ears.

[shanstress70]

Perhaps a time-out isn't severe enough, but maybe not letting them go tonight would be. Or taking away their video games or TV, or not letting them go hand out with their friends for a week.

But does it really make sense to say, "Don't kick - it's not nice and it hurts. But bc you did that, I'm going to hit you, even though it's not nice and it hurts." ???

I am totally convinced that spanking is not the answer.

I don't think these boys are so unthoughtful, uncaring, and violent because their parents don't spank them.

[sgallan]

Time out works. They mess up again..... another time out. Long time. They move.... put them back. They talk, tell them you are not interested. They complain you don't argue, you just stay in their face..... sit down, shut up, and I am not remotely interested. In otherwords you 'win' and keep winning..... right away. And let them know you are going to win right away. I've delt with kids who - when I couldn't seem to convince them to stay under control on their own - became attached to the hip to me. They hate that. When they have earned your respect, at that point you give them respect and work with a new relationship. Kids like that will still test you of course, but it is easier to bring them back into line the second time.

PS - I am the substitute in this school district they love to give the troubled grades and classes too. 7th grade at one school and 6th grade at another. With usually one difficult class in the other grades from 3rd on. A lot of kids think I am either strict, or mean. That basically means they have to follow the rules and do their work. The troubled ones usually test me right away (they learned), and you lay the hammer down on them instantly. The rest catch on.

[Dr T]

Hi Winnie G,

I'm not telling you to spank or not to; my question for you would be "what would the purpose be?" What do you want to see happen? I know the, "to shape those children up!" but really, is it more to appease your own frustration, revenge at feeling disrespected, what? We know that positive reinforcement is a better predictor of prosocial behavior. If we want to see an action happen more often, we can achieve that by reinforcing the behavior (or in your case behaviour) rather than punishing a wrong behavior. Punishing a wrong behavior often will not teach the child a more appropriate behavior to replace the wrong. When a child does a "good action" a compliment ("good job", "well done", etc.) shows that child that it is good to act in that way. This behavior is more likely to reoccur than a punishment for negative bx. Consider the prison system. Do they usually come out rehabilitated? With my children, I what to see more positive behavior not so much a lack of negative behavior. Don't get me wrong, there are both in my family but I tend to focus on the good things, reinforcing them when I see them and when I catch a negative behavior, I make them apologize and figure out what other behavior they could have done and then make them do that. Over-learning like this is very useful and the reinforcement makes that behavior tend to happen again. Just my "1 cent."

Dr. T

P.S. have you seen my gnome?

[sgallan]

P.S. have you seen my gnome?

I am a godless heathen and I kidnapped your gnome. There was a ransom but frankly the gnome and I have become drinking buddies so you can't have him back.

[Palerider]

I think the worse thing to punish a kid with today...take away computer ....video games....cd's etc...now that gets their attention.

[sgallan]

Not here. We have the computer because it is a learning tool. But the rest isn't in the house. No thumb work outs around here.

[Dr T]

Hey sgallan,

I don't believe you. Not that you are a godless heathan but that you took my gnome. What color hair does that gnome have and what is written on the bottom of his/her feet? Is it a male of female? How big is it? What is it wearing?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[prisonchaplain]

The troubled ones usually test me right away (they learned), and you lay the hammer down on them instantly. The rest catch on.

Hee hee hee...Sgallan...THE HAMMER! That's what I'm talkin' about!!

[Winnie G]

Tonight was amazing we ended up on the rivers edge right were the fireworks were shot over, it was right overhead!

The two darlings went of course and before it became dark, the boys started to poke kick and hit each other the older one kicked his bother in the chest knocking the wind out of him. Our son 21 and 6.5’ stood up checked the younger one and said “OK that’s it I’m sitting on you if you don’t stop” he sat down in the middle of the blanket they were sitting on and swung his LONGGGGGGGGGGGG legs over both the boys pinning them.

After a few wines, they settled and they stopped. He told them he would move only if they stopped apologized to each other and behave. They did, why because he meant it and he fallowed though. Some how this message was lost along the way.

By the way my grown children were raised in the time were a swat on the bum was the norm. I have never struck my children much after they were small and always for an action that was dangerous. Snake down pants or climbing a power line tower throwing your baby sister in to a garbage dumpster. Therefore, you can see it had to be something big.

My children cant ever remembering me striking them. A cuff on the back of the head maybe but that was always fallowed by “hay? Sorry mom”. I was very creative once my two oldest stole money from my purse, the women at the small store called me. She knows something was up. When I brought them home they spent the day cleaning my house toped by cutting the front lawn with round end children’s craft scissors. They never stole again. Then coming home with friends who were to drunk to go home were bedded down lined up for showers feed a big breakfast and just as they were complimenting my sons on how cool their parents were they were given the check. Our sons would say wait for it, yup here it comes. A list of to do list that would take the whole day, from cutting the grass. Cleaning out my car and washing it all the way to washing my floors. If they did not like the deal I would offer to call their parents. There is nothing like sitting in the shad feet up wile 10 hung over teenagers clean your house and do all the yard work.

You know I missed something; I had a hicky smacking spoon, an old wooden spoon that was used if you came in to the house with a hicky! None of my children was ever dumb enough to make that mistake but their friend’s aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh they were dumb it did not take long for my draw to open and out came the spoon and my boys would yell RUN!

They run and their friends were left looking dumb looks on their faces when I came after them. I only caught one. He told his mother who called me laughing hysterically and asking how long I had the spoon!

[sgallan]

Hee hee hee...Sgallan...THE HAMMER! That's what I'm talkin' about!!

No doubt. Take one out like that, hang up the body, and the rest get the hint.

Winnie - LOL...... your kid obviously has this kid thing down. Unless there is some sort of mental health issue, it isn't the kids who are 'bad'. Just kids who need someone to let them know their behaviors are not correct. They aren't little adults afterall. They are kids.

[Winnie G]

I got the biggest kick out of watching him do that, no wonder he is the one my neighbor (two doors down) only uses him for a baby sitter.

He is such a neat kid oops man.

[Traveler]

I do not pretend to be a parent that knows more than everyone else. But there are a couple of things I learned with my children. There is no one thing that fits all. Each child is an individual. Each with their own personality and likes and dislikes. Punishments that work for one, many times will not work for another and punishments that worked when they are 5 or 12 most likely will not work when they are 17.

The other concern I have is that punishment is the minor part of incentives and encouragements children need in order to become productive adults. Few parents have a comprehensive plan for teaching and training their children. I am not talking about turning your children to the success of all your failures - I am talking about preparing them for life as responsible human beings. I do not believe in the "let them figure it out unless it becomes a problem or disaster approach". Such methods do not work for math, physics, music, spelling or anything else; why think it would work for the most important part of character building?

The most important teaching moment comes through example. My wife and I decided that it was not the end of the world when our children realized that their parents did not always agree but we did determine that it was extremely important that they learn and experience that their parents could resolve differences and remain loving partners. Watching their parents tenderly and sincerely apologize and come together is more worth while than a thousand lectures.

I would like to make a point about teaching children is consistency and the use of warnings rather than threats. Often when my children were playing a blame game I would say to my children, "Would you like me to solve this problem for you?" They learned this is a warning. Do not confuse your children. They should know in advance what will happen when they behave badly. Often I would tell my children when they make bad choices that it leaves me with no choices.

The last point is what I learned from my dear wife. Above all else children should know and understand that they are loved - especially when they misbehave. Never imply that you do not like your children or that there are times that you cannot stand having them around but that you do appreciate efforts and gifts of sacrifice rather than the "I want" attitudes from them.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I thought I would add something I do with my 3 year old grandson. He is a bit of a pill and tends to get out of hand. From time to time he will come to his grandpa (me) and ask that I will play with him. I try to accomodate these requests. However, he will often become selfish and not want others to join us or sometimes he will throw a toy at me or someone else and laugh. When this happens I begin putting the toys away and when he ask what I am doing I tell him I cannot play that way so our play time has ended. This use to make him mad but in time he has learned. If fact he has learned so well often he will ask me if he can do something before he does it. I will ask him what he thinks and if he would rather play that way or play with his grandpa. My daughter tells me that playing with his grandpa is one of his favorite things, but I must admit playing with him is not always one of my favorite things though I do love and enjoy my grand children.

The Traveler

[Fiannan]

One wonders, since so many kids are medicated out of their minds in the United States (ritalin you know) one wonders if families that do give spankings when their kids are unruly have as much of that "ADHD" thing going on.

[sgallan]

Finian -

That spanking thing can backfire. Sorta taught my dad that lesson when I was 14. I had developed some combat skills (wrestling/boxing) and at 14 had enough strength to test them out on an adult marine. We got after it. Tore up the house. Freaked out my mom and brothers. He eventually won but never attempted to go that route again as I actually 'liked' it. It wasn't that he was abusive..... I was just that way as a kid. As Traveler mentioned..... can't treat all the kids the same.

[Outshined]

One wonders, since so many kids are medicated out of their minds in the United States (ritalin you know) one wonders if families that do give spankings when their kids are unruly have as much of that "ADHD" thing going on.

No doubt; G. Gordon Liddy tells about being in school, which was run by monks. He says "I'd start to get a little ADD, a monk would knock me out of my seat, and the ADD would be healed."

ADD/ADHD exists to an extent, but not to the degree that it gets blamed for bad behavior these days

[Winnie G]

Out shined.

“ADD/ADHD exists to an extent, but not to the degree that it gets blamed for bad behavior these days”

I so agree with you!

To help a young neighbor on another base I drove her to the school for kindergarten orientation for the parents.

Their children were present as well. I stood and was shocked as the principle made the statement to one of the children all sitting down front that “his rules were un-breakable and you fallowed these rules or he would brake you”

Ill never forget it. At the coffee brake afterwards parents compared their other children’s needs. Not one of them send it at all strange that all of them but a few were not on meds.

I think children are becoming a pharmaceutical experiment for the big drug company’s and a new way to make big bucks!

If Johnny cant sit still give him a pill, not to ask could he be board?

I also think parents are afraid to parent .

[shanstress70]

I too think this ADHD thing is played out. I do believe it exists, but I don't think it's as common as the pharms would have us think.

My child is very intense and spirited. Sweet and loving as can be, but not one who likes to sit still. He will be quiet, but his mind is constantly running. He is the type of child that those meds would be prescribed for, but I will not stand for it. The challenge is to figure out how a child like this ticks, and find a successful teaching method for him. Just because his type doesn't fit neatly into a box, doesn't mean that he needs to be medicated in order to make it easy for his teacher.

Normally kids like this are out-going, successful problem solvers, unless they've been labeled 'bad'. I try to find a good mix of teaching him how to 'tow the line' when he has to, and allow for his individuality and learning style at the same time.

A book that I highly recommend for any parent is "Raising Your Spirited Child" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. This has taught me a lot.

Back to the topic of spanking, I don't think this is ever a good idea, but I would never tell someone they are wrong for doing so... unless they ask. IMO, it is the easy way out. There are other ways to discipline that may be more difficult and take more time, but are more effective in the long run. Kids are worth the time!

[Winnie G]

When my children were young back in the day they were raised.

I have to say the amount a swats on the bum happened I could count on my fingers and I have lots of fingers left. I always smile when they say, “My Mom would kick my butt if I did that” I always smile and ask them when did they get their butts kick spank or any other corporal punishment? They always say “I don’t remember”

The hicky spoon they remember but they never recived.

I think the point is I did not have too. They just know.

Have any of you heard the Bill Cosby routine called The Belt?

It goes “we had never saw the belt but we heard about it It was ten feet long with meat hooks on it that would rip the meat off your body would ever hit you”