If cannabis were to become legal

[AGStacker]

I am referring to the drug companies. If no law regulated the personal growth of marijuana then many people would self medicate and not purchase prescription drugs. Sure states are making businesses out of marijuana but if people were legally allowed to grow it then the states wouldn't profit.

If marijuana was legal we wouldn't have the crime involved with people trying to traffic it. Again, read up on prohibition and learn why it didn't work.

Facts?! You people act like the government is supposed to be the parents of America. When did ANYONE prosper when they were forced to live and behave a certain way.

Taking away agency is the devil's plan. You'd rather have the government tell you what you cannot do as opposed to not doing it because it is wrong.

Also, hemp is also illegal yet it has many quality characteristics.

Good video but who cares about people with disabilities. Let's just prescribe them "what the doctor ordered"! Let's not forget that using marijuana supports terrorism.

YouTube - ‪"Marijuana Is The Wonder Drug Of Our Time"‬‏

Constitutionally marijuana should be able to grow in your backyard just like tomatoes.

[Vort]

Imprisoning millions of people for marijuana use is not providing for the general welfare of the people.

This is a lie, AGStacker. I assume you are an unwitting dupe to passing along this lie, so I am letting you know that your claim is false. A government study shows the numbers and includes this excerpt:

"In 1997, the year for which the most recent data are available, just 1.6 percent of the state inmate population were held for offenses involving only marijuana, and less than one percent of all state prisoners (0.7 percent) were incarcerated with marijuana possession as the only charge, according to the U.S. Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS). An even smaller fraction of state prisoners in 1997 who were convicted just for marijuana possession were first time offenders (0.3 percent).

"The numbers on the federal level tell a similar story. Out of all drug defendants sentenced in federal court for marijuana crimes in 2001, the overwhelming majority were convicted for trafficking, according to the U.S. Sentencing Commission. Only 2.3 percent—186 people—received sentences for simple possession, and of the 174 for whom sentencing information is known, just 63 actually served time behind bars."

"Imprisoning millions of people for marijuana use"? I don't think so.

Intentionally breaking unconstitutional laws? Do you understand what the Constitution is?

Yes, I understand quite well. Do you understand by what means constitutionality is established? (Hint: Madison v. Marbury, 1801)

It is the supreme law of this land and no law can negate it by any means meaning if I wish to intake marijuana the government has no legal authority to tell me no.

The government says it does. The court of final appeals agrees with them. The Constitution has been interpreted by those whose duty it is to interpret to allow such actions. So are we supposed to take the musings of a random 25-year-old as the final word?

420 friendly? I am correct on what the Constitution says. It is not the government's responsibility to tell me what I can or cannot take into my body.

Your opinion and two bucks will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Many Mormons do not understand the war in Heaven. How do you think Satan executes his plan?

To destroy the agency of man? Certainly not by working to pass laws for an ordered society.

[Vort]

If marijuana was legal we wouldn't have the crime involved with people trying to traffic it. Again, read up on prohibition and learn why it didn't work.

You are promoting a myth. Prohibition worked very well, despite what pro-drug groups say.

Facts?! You people act like the government is supposed to be the parents of America. When did ANYONE prosper when they were forced to live and behave a certain way.

Then why have any laws at all, AGStacker?

Taking away agency is the devil's plan.

Ah, yes. The refrain of the silly, naive BYU student: "You can't tell us we have to cut our hair! That's taking away our free agency!"

No, laws do not restrict agency. Claiming such simply demonstrates that you don't have any good idea what "agency" means.

Constitutionally marijuana should be able to grow in your backyard just like tomatoes.

Yes, this is your opinion. We know. But repeating it doesn't magically make it true.

[AGStacker]

This is a lie, AGStacker. I assume you are an unwitting dupe to passing along this lie, so I am letting you know that your claim is false. A government study shows the numbers and includes this excerpt:

"In 1997, the year for which the most recent data are available, just 1.6 percent of the state inmate population were held for offenses involving only marijuana, and less than one percent of all state prisoners (0.7 percent) were incarcerated with marijuana possession as the only charge, according to the U.S. Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS). An even smaller fraction of state prisoners in 1997 who were convicted just for marijuana possession were first time offenders (0.3 percent).

"The numbers on the federal level tell a similar story. Out of all drug defendants sentenced in federal court for marijuana crimes in 2001, the overwhelming majority were convicted for trafficking, according to the U.S. Sentencing Commission. Only 2.3 percent—186 people—received sentences for simple possession, and of the 174 for whom sentencing information is known, just 63 actually served time behind bars."

"Imprisoning millions of people for marijuana use"? I don't think so.

Yes, I understand quite well. Do you understand by what means constitutionality is established? (Hint: Madison v. Marbury, 1801)

The government says it does. The court of final appeals agrees with them. The Constitution has been interpreted by those whose duty it is to interpret to allow such actions. So are we supposed to take the musings of a random 25-year-old as the final word?

Your opinion and two bucks will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

To destroy the agency of man? Certainly not by working to pass laws for an ordered society.

Haha! OK Vort. You win. Keep on believing everything the government tells you. Believe that marijuana is evil. Believe that the economy is recovering. Believe that the real bad guys are outside of our land. Believe that all of these laws and rules are for your "pursuit of happiness". Believe that all of these taxes are just and necessary. Believe that a naive 25 year old would never have any good insight and don't dare to realize that maybe your entire paradigm is off.

Good luck to you. I hope you have food storage and something other than the US dollar because we all will be needing it soon.

I do suggest you read the writings of the Founding Fathers. You will be pleasantly surprised.

[Vort]

I do suggest you read the writings of the Founding Fathers. You will be pleasantly surprised.

What makes you think I haven't? Just because I disagree with you?

I notice you answered not a single one of my points. I wonder why. (But not really.)

[AGStacker]

According to the latest statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice, more than two million men and women are now behind bars in the United States.1 The country that holds itself out as the "land of freedom" incarcerates a higher percentage of its people than any other country. The human costs — wasted lives, wrecked families, troubled children — are incalculable, as are the adverse social, economic and political consequences of weakened communities, diminished opportunities for economic mobility, and extensive disenfranchisement.

Contrary to popular perception, violent crime is not responsible for the quadrupling of the incarcerated population in the United States since 1980. In fact, violent crime rates have been relatively constant or declining over the past two decades. The exploding prison population has been propelled by public policy changes that have increased the use of prison sentences as well as the length of time served, e.g. through mandatory minimum sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and reductions in the availability of parole or early release.

Although these policies were championed as protecting the public from serious and violent offenders, they have instead yielded high rates of confinement of nonviolent offenders. Nearly three quarters of new admissions to state prison were convicted of nonviolent crimes.2 Only 49 percent of sentenced state inmates are held for violent offenses.3

Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "war on drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges.4

HRW: Backgrounder: Incarcerated America, April 2003

[AGStacker]

What makes you think I haven't? Just because I disagree with you?

I notice you answered not a single one of my points. I wonder why. (But not really.)

It is you who has no understanding of the principles of the Constitution. If you have no understanding of the Constitution you will never understand what I am trying to say. Good luck to you Vort.

Read some of what the Founders have wrote.

Edited June 17, 2011 by AGStacker

[Vort]

According to the latest statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice, more than two million men and women are now behind bars in the United States.

Wait. I thought you said "millions" were in prison because they smoked pot. Now you're saying there are two million total. What's up with your numbers?

In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges.

Hmmm. Let's see: 22% of two million is...um...do I need a calculator for this?...nah, I can do it in my head...that would be 440,000.

440,000 << millions

I think your claim of millions being imprisoned for smoking marijuana is bogus, AGStacker. Add in the fact (linked in my post above) that most of those imprisoned on drug charges are there for drug trafficking, not merely smoking pot, and that the vast majority of them have prior criminal records, and your specious claim goes up in smoke.

[AGStacker]

Wait. I thought you said "millions" were in prison because they smoked pot. Now you're saying there are two million total. What's up with your numbers?

Hmmm. Let's see: 22% of two million is...um...do I need a calculator for this?...nah, I can do it in my head...that would be 440,000.

440,000 << millions

I think your claim of millions being imprisoned for smoking marijuana is bogus, AGStacker. Add in the fact (linked in my post above) that most of those imprisoned on drug charges are there for drug trafficking, not merely smoking pot, and that the vast majority of them have prior criminal records, and your specious claim goes up in smoke.

This is data from the year 2000.

[AGStacker]

$1 Billion per year to jail marijuana users Later On

Incarceration Nation — Marijuana Arrests For Year 2009 Near Record High | NORML Blog, Marijuana Law Reform

[AGStacker]

I do not have an EXACT figure but the fact remains that it is asinine for a nonviolent user of marijuana to be imprisoned.

[AGStacker]

Louisiana Man Gets Life for Marijuana - Repeat offender Cornell Hood gets long time in joint

[Vort]

It is you who has no understanding of the principles of the Constitution. If you have no understanding of the Constitution you will never understand what I am trying to say. Good luck to you Vort.

Read some of what the Founders have wrote.

AGStacker, I have taken the wrong tack in conversing with you. I have taken a stance opposite yours and have pointed out logical flaws you have made. It is clear that you're not willing or able to engage on that level. So let me try this:

• I understand that you feel passionately about your beliefs.

• I understand that you are convinced you are right and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

• I understand that you have all the conviction of young adulthood that you have discovered truth invisible to most others, who if they would only read what you have read and open their minds to possibilities, would surely see things the way you see them.

So from the position of a middle-aged guy who has been around the block numerous times on these very issues, let me offer you my perspective.

• The Constitution means essentially what we say it means. In this case, "we" means the US Supreme Court, as established by Madison v. Marbury. It does not matter one whit whether you agree with this decision; it has been accepted as established law for over 200 years without a single significant challenge. In essence, the Constitution means whatever the Supreme Court says it means, the counter-arguments of a passionate 25-year-old notwithstanding.

• "Agency" cannot be taken away through legislation. This is an obvious falsehood; if it were true, the Church would oppose all legislation whatsoever, which it clearly does not. Establishing a society curtails certain individual liberties, but this is the price we pay for establishing such a society, believing as we do that the benefits outweigh the price. Our agency is divinely given and cannot be removed by any external force; I can quote numerous sources on this point, if you need.

• Prohibition was not the grand failure you seem to believe, though this belief is commonly held and propagated in society today, especially among those with a pro-drug agenda. This is a somewhat specialized area that requires some real digging and research.

• Finally, suggesting that those who disagree with you simply haven't read enough is silly hubris. You would do well to cultivate a bit of humility and realize that, just maybe, your reading and understanding may be deficient, not everyone else's.

[Vort]

This is data from the year 2000.

Do you really believe that in 11 years, the number of people imprisoned for marijuana use alone has gone from a few tens of thousands (max) to "millions"?

[AGStacker]

According to a report released in December of 2008 from the US Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, the number of people incarcerated for drug offenses in state and federal prisons are over 600,000. In 2007 parole and probation violations accounted for a third of new prison admissions and while we have no exact numbers on how many are drug offense related you can be sure the number is high. Since 2000, the number of americans behind bars increased by 15%, while during the same period the US population increased by only 6.4%.

“According to the US Department of Justice, 30-40 percent of all current prison admissions involve crimes that have no direct or obvious victim other than the perpetrator,” the report shows. “The drug category constitutes the largest offense category, with 31 percent of all prison admissions resulting from such crimes.” Nearly a third of all prison admissions are from non violent drug offenses!

In 2007 the Department of Justice reported that there were 1,841,182 drug arrests in the United States; the report also stated that there were more drug abuse arrests than any other category of offenses. Marijuana arrests accounted for 47.4% of the drug abuse arrests. This allows us to estimate that about 872,720 persons were arrested for marijuana offenses. Eighty-nine percent of these arrests were for possession. The 2007 arrest data is even worse than 2006 when 829,627 people were arrested for marijuana (a Project Censored’s top 25 story in 2008). In 2005 there were 786,545 marijuana arrests, meaning that the number of arrests increased by 86K in just two years. Clearly, marijuana is an intense focus of police interest and activity; far more, apparently, than the less important crimes occurring at the same time on Wall Street.

Marijuana Arrests Feed Insatiable U.S. Prison System | NowPublic News Coverage

[MorningStar]

I don't know, but I'm not touching the whacky tobacky or any other habit forming drug. Seems like the majority of people fighting for prescription use are potheads.

[Vort]

In 2007 the Department of Justice reported that there were 1,841,182 drug arrests in the United States; the report also stated that there were more drug abuse arrests than any other category of offenses. Marijuana arrests accounted for 47.4% of the drug abuse arrests. This allows us to estimate that about 872,720 persons were arrested for marijuana offenses. Eighty-nine percent of these arrests were for possession.

So roughly 777,000 arrests for marijuana possession. How many of those were imprisoned? Perhaps 10%? And how many of the imprisoned were incarcerated for previous or multiple offenses, not merely possession? Well over 90%, perhaps?

So where do you come up with the idea that "millions" of people are incarcerated for marijuana possession or usage?

[Dravin]

The fact is if you support the Constitution than you would support no laws prohibiting marijuana.

I can see this in regards to Federal restrictions being an over extention of constiutional princples (obviously the Sepreme Court disagrees but we'll roll with it) but what in the Constitution is it that would make state restriction of it a no-no (such as say the 1st amendment which makes state restriction of speech a no-no)? If the Constitution fails to give the Federal Goverment the power to restrict such things it gives it to the states, to whit:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

So if you argue that the Federal government has no power given to it by the constitution to restrict things such as marijauna then guess who you just implicetly 'gave' the power to? I suppose one could debate people versus state but it's far from fact that the Constitution prohibits the restriction of substances such as marijuana by state governments (who can also laws)*. So even given the assumption that the Feds haven't the power to restrict marijuana I could still support state laws doing such.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Dravin

[NeuroTypical]

If marijuana was legal we wouldn't have the crime involved with people trying to traffic it.

Could I ask you again to read my posts in this thread? Medicinal marijuana IS legal in Colorado, and 14 other states. The practical impact of legalizing MMJ, is that now everyone has 'legal' access to it, after jumping through a bureaucratic hoop or too. Yes, we still have crime involved with people trying to traffic it illegally. Yes, when dealing with growers outside our national borders, we're often dealing with cartels who also traffic in child prostitution, kidnappings, and murders.

Your "if" scenario is being tried here in America. Your "if" scenario is being proven false every day that goes by here in Colorado, and 14 other states as well.

Also, hemp is also illegal yet it has many quality characteristics.

It is? Who makes it illegal? My wife the knitter has purchased and made many things from hemp twine over the years. She and our daughter has made keychains and dog leashes out of hemp. Got link? Edited June 17, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Dravin]

It is? Who makes it illegal? My wife the knitter has purchased and made many things from hemp twine over the years. She and our daughter has made keychains and dog leashes out of hemp. Got link?

I never realized Amazon was such a rebel, what with their selling of illegal hemp twine and rope, and illegal hemp shirts, shorts, and sandals. Wal-Mart is also in the business of selling illegal hemp items but somehow that doesn't surprise me.

Edit: It should be noted that to my understanding growing hemp requires a DEA permit but this doesn't make hemp illegal.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Dravin

[FanOf31]

They have never said anything directly against marijuana. It is an herb which God created and it has many benefits to it. I think if anything, the evil designs come from governments making it illegal because they'd rather profit off selling prescription pills. Anyone could go in their backyard and grow marijuana but this isn't profitable.

Their are nonviolent criminals in jail because of smoking marijuana. This is idiocy in its purest forms. Do I think people should use it while driving? Of course not. Should it be legalized? Of course it should. We saw what prohibition created.

The fact is if you support the Constitution than you would support no laws prohibiting marijuana. It isn't the government's responsibility to control everything you do.

Also, many Mormons think it is OK to be 500 pounds or pop prescription pills like it is candy because the governments approve but don't you DARE touch marijuana!

Drinking wine or smoking cigarettes DO NOT make you a bad person but God knows the risk of doing so. Drunk driving accident, lung cancer, possibly infidelity while drunk, losing virginity, unwanted child etc. It isn't wise to partake in things that can potentially cause harm. The only harm I see with marijuana is the risk of being thrown in jail because the government has made it illegal.

For the record, I am 25 and have NEVER consumed alcohol, cigarettes, marijuana or illegal drugs (including pharmaceuticals besides when I had pneumonia, very painful). Never! I just thoroughly understand the Constitution whereas my fellow brethren and sisters do not.

I know many here will disagree with me but the truth will win in the end.

The truth

[FanOf31]

Sorry, Vort, but you're absolutely wrong about jailing marijuana "offenders". It's absolutely wrong. There are much worse people who get to go home when jails get too full that are real criminals and not some happy hippy doing his own private thing taking his natural medicine. I don't appreciate having to pay for the meals and time for people in jail for weed. It's just stupid. Those billions of dollars could really go elsewhere!

[FanOf31]

I don't know, but I'm not touching the whacky tobacky or any other habit forming drug. Seems like the majority of people fighting for prescription use are potheads.

A pothead is a person who doesn't do much more than weed. So if they're into pills, their name then changes to pill popper or junky. You need to learn the meaning of those names hehe

[Vort]

Sorry, Vort, but you're absolutely wrong about jailing marijuana "offenders". It's absolutely wrong.

How am I wrong, FanOf31? I provided evidence in my rebuttals of AGStacker's false claims.

If you think I'm wrong, then show it. Don't just say "Hey, you're wrong!" That means nothing.

[PrinceofLight2000]

I'm just going to say that pot should be decriminalized, not legalized, and as others have said, any legalization for medical use needs to be controlled with a vice and a set of hawk eyes.