Women Having Careers

[RescueMom]

As a woman who didn't finish her degree, and who then got married, had kids....and then found herself without a husband due to his cheating...all I can say...is finish your degree. Any man who is intimidated by your education is not worth being married too. There will be a good LDS man out there who will honor the education you have, find it awesome that the mother of his children is educated enough to actually be able to teach, nurture and care for them should something happen to him.

In an ideal world all would be as it were supposed to be. But we don't live in an ideal world, most men can not in this economy provide all the things a family needs (no fault of the men) and most women have to at least work part time. With your degree, you can set better hours of practice in case you have to work outside the home, where as some one like me had to take the jobs offered (which most of the time did not blend well with home life)

An advanced degree gives you the opportunity to provide a better environment to nuture your children, a better ability to be a supporting wife, and if needed the ability to support the family.

Plus....we must remember Brigham Young wanted his daughters educated.

It's never been the education that has been the issue, its always been putting the career ahead of all else (and that is in both male and female roles).

And again not all men are intimidated by an educated woman...those are the ones you want anyway. They're the ones secure in themself, they make better husbands.

[Bini]

Pray about it but ultimately this is YOUR decision. I can't imagine the Lord discouraging any of His children from pursuing an education and career in order to gain a better future for them and their family. As long as (now or when the time comes) your spouse and children remain your priority, regardless of everything else around you, you'll remain on the right track.

I come from a family of career men and women. My mother was a nurse for 30 years and my sister is a working lawyer. I followed in my mum's footsteps and went into nursing and have done it almost 10 years now. However, I am 7 months pregnant at this point and we (hubby and I) have decided that in the best interest of our family, that I would become a stay-at-home-mum. But if I were the breadwinner, possibly the roles would be reversed and my husband would be a Mr. Mum. I know that my sister will plan to work a full career and depending on what her spouse does, she may return to work after her children reach a certain age.

Go for it and best of luck!

[Vort]

I can't imagine the Lord discouraging any of His children from pursuing an education and career in order to gain a better future for them and their family.

I can.

[Backroads]

I can.

Example?

[Bini]

I can.

Oh, Vort. We can count on you to turn this into a debate.

[Vort]

Example?

Sure. I didn't go to medical school.

[Gwen]

I say go for the degree. I can think of a hundred ways such a degree could build your family. You might get the degree and then decide to stay at home... I can't count how many times I've thought how nice it would be to be able to check my kids for ear infections instead of having to go to the dr for nothing. Part of being a mother is being a dr/nurse. That kind of degree can come in handy. And if you do end up working then you help in more ways than one.

I know at least 2 women in our small town that are stay at home moms. Both have nursing degrees, they were active in their careers and then had a child with disabilities. Due to their education they were able to stop working and be full time nurse/caregiver to the child with special needs. I think about what a blessing their education is for them. They don't have to hire outside help, they already know and understand the basics. What a blessing for their family.

Follow where the spirit tells you to go.

[applepansy]

If I have read this thread two weeks ago, I would have probably suspect it was a joke. Seriously. Just reading the OP and some of the replies gave me the shivers. The reason I say two weeks is because just last Sunday, a sister (who is the wife of a leader) said in sacrament meeting to the YM to "find a good wife, one that doesn't want a dog or a career".

Yep, my jaw dropped to the floor.

I agree with the dog and I'd cat too.

FutureMD: I agree with just about everything that has been posted. So with that in mind I'd like to just say I think your career choice is great! Best wishes.

Oh...have you talked to your parents about what the bishop said? Their viewpoint might be helpful. Do you have your patriarchal blessing yet?

Edited June 29, 2011 by applepansy

[Backroads]

Sure. I didn't go to medical school.

Yes, but were you discouraged by the Lord?

[Vort]

Yes, but were you discouraged by the Lord?

Yes, I was. That was the whole point of the example.

[Vort]

Oh, Vort. We can count on you to turn this into a debate.

Why? Because I disagree with your assertion?

[Bini]

Why? Because I disagree with your assertion?

You usually have to disgaree to start a debate.

[Vort]

You usually have to disgaree to start a debate.

But it does not follow that disagreeing with a position automatically turns it into a debate. So in what way do you believe you can "count on me" to turn a discussion into a debate?

[Bini]

But it does not follow that disagreeing with a position automatically turns it into a debate. So in what way do you believe you can "count on me" to turn a discussion into a debate?

I recall you enjoy a good debate, Vort. Before you took your hiatus, you previously engaged in a lot of debates on this forum. That, is what I'm referring to.

And you're right about disagreeing not automatically turning something into a debate. I did say "usually".

[Vort]

I recall you enjoy a good debate, Vort. Before you took your hiatus, you previously engaged in a lot of debates on this forum. That, is what I'm referring to.

And you're right about disagreeing not automatically turning something into a debate. I did say "usually".

If that is all you meant, then forgive me for taking offense.

For the record, I do not particularly enjoy debate. I do enjoy discussion, and I appreciate those who go further than merely to state their opinion, as if that alone has any effect or relevance.

[classylady]

My relief society president, who was just released and was put into the stake relief society presidency, is a medical doctor. She's married and has four children. It can be done. But she did make the decision to only work part time quite a few years ago.

My niece, who just finished her residency, met her husband while attending med school. They've both found positions with a hospital in a small city in the state of WA. They are in different fields of medicine.

[FutureMD]

Backroads- these words you wrote really stuck with me for some reason:

Yes, he is able to receive revelation for you and all that good stuff. But I'm sensing he's confusing revelation on your behalf with his own opinions... which a bishop has no place to do. Time will pass and he will be honorably released from his calling and possibly move onto to serve another calling. He will no longer be your bishop. You, on the other hand, will still be living whatever life you choose.

I am ultimately the one who has to live with my decision. And if I can kneel down each night feeling good about my choices with a free conscience, then that's all that really matters. Thanks for that!

I think that in this day and age, we women are so incredibly lucky that we're able to make the choice to pursue careers or to stay home. I think that many (not all) women are meant to have fulfilling pursuits outside the home. I also think that staying home is a noble "career" as well. And just as women like myself, who choose to work don't want to be judged by those who stay home, we also shouldn't look down upon or judge back and think that if you stay home, you don't have other interests or goals.

I don't for one second buy into the feminist idea of women being equal to men. We aren't. Plain and simple. We are unique. We have our divine nature. But, what I do prescribe to is equal opportunities and choices. Every woman, in our day, has the ability to choose. And as women, we should support and uplift each other in those choices, whatever they may be. We get to work if we want, or stay home if we want, or do both! I think it's an amazing time, and as long as we stay true to ourselves and Heavenly Father, and follow our own paths, how can we go wrong? There isn't one right way. Ahhh I digress...lol.

For the few that asked, YES I have received my patriarchal blessing. And without divulging too much, I feel it's very in sync with me becoming a doctor. And not just because I'm interpreting a generic statement into what I want it to be. It speaks of serving and healing beyond the walls of my home and family.

Thank you MarginOfError, Eowyn, RescueMom, Bini, & Gwen for your stories and examples of women you know who have made careers work. It helps me feel supported in this decision that can often times feel very lonely.

Vort-I'm so interested and would love to hear details of what went into your decision to decline med school. (We can PM if you want?)

Thank you THANK YOU THANK YOU to everyone for your thoughtful comments and insights. I'm so grateful to the speedy community I've found here. I have another appointment with my Bishop this Sunday, so wish me luck! I'll post an update :)

[FutureMD]

My relief society president, who was just released and was put into the stake relief society presidency, is a medical doctor. She's married and has four children. It can be done. But she did make the decision to only work part time quite a few years ago.

My niece, who just finished her residency, met her husband while attending med school. They've both found positions with a hospital in a small city in the state of WA. They are in different fields of medicine.

Classylady-that is awesome! Besides my mom, I honestly don't know any other female, Mormon doctors.

How old is your niece? I'm hoping to meet someone while in school as well. I'm scared that I'm already so old, and then the whole "doctor" thing is going to scare a lot of boys away but I just have to trust that things will work out for me.

[hyohko]

...I came away from it very conflicted and confused.

This is the first sign that the interview did not go well. Think about all the times you have ever received personal revelation, times when you have been in church, times when you have spoken with leaders and the Spirit was present. Did you feel confusion? Did you feel darkness and conflict? Perhaps if you were actually sinning, but I very much doubt that the desire to pursue a noble desire to serve others and aid in their healing constitutes sin in and of itself.

He told me that he didn't agree with "girls" pursuing careers that would ultimately interfere with them being mothers....He said that "as my priesthood leader" he strongly advises me to reconsider my decision and to think about what eternal consequences I could be bringing upon myself by becoming a doctor.

Strictly opinion. He can disagree all he wants, and even invoke his authority in the matter. Even though a Bishop has spiritual authority over his ward, that doesn't automatically confer veto authority over the lives of everyone in it. And recognizing that this is the first time he has spoken to you, he certainly hasn't fasted and prayed on your behalf in giving you this advice. In fact, since you mentioned that his reaction was immediately negative, this shows some level of personal bias on his part.

He said I might be eliminating many boys from my dating pool and setting myself up to be single and childless for this earthly life.

Anecdotally, this statement may have merit - he is probably reflecting on what he has seen personally - men who aren't confident enough in themselves and their own abilities to even allow the idea of marrying someone so accomplished. However, arguing by anecdote is politics at best, the fallacy of an appeal to emotion.

Becoming a doctor has been a lifelong dream of mine, I've always felt it was my path in life, and have never felt promptings telling me to reconsider. I've prayed very heavily on the matter, especially on where I should attend school, since I could possibly meet my future husband in the next 4 years, and I want to be in the right place for me. I've always, 100%, felt completely right about pursuing an education and going to med school. And I have been very prayerful and thoughtful about this decision.

Then who is he to tell you that your answers to prayers that you have made (on your own, well before meeting him) are wrong? He has no authority to override what God tells you about your own life.

For the most part, the revelatory authority of a leader is specific to the administration of their duties. He gets the word on how to run the ward as a unit, who to call, what to teach, the things people need to hear as a whole, and how to succor the wounds of sin on an individual level. Since you are not a sinner in need of ecclesiastical confession, then it is possible that he has no business giving you such direction. If he had taken more time, gone through the fast-and-pray process along with you instead of just telling you to do it (presumably until you agree with him), then perhaps his counsel would carry more weight. But for now, just take it as his personal advice. My advice would be to disregard this particular item of counsel outright.

I was very upset that he would say things like that to me, in the condescending manner that he did, without even really knowing me. But my heart has been softened and now I'm trying to make sense of everything, big picture.

This is the warning flag. This description of his action does not fit the ideal of "gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned." If you have received your own witness that the medical profession is the correct one for you, and such witness has come with the Fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith - Gal. 5:22), then by all means, go to medical school.

However, don't hold this against your bishop. A soft heart is a blessing - heaven knows we need more of them.

(Side note and disclaimer - I have a predilection for doctors, good ones at least. I - a nearly 26-year old bachelor - would have no problems courting and marrying one. It doesn't hurt my ego. I might be more threatened by dating a computer expert, as that is my expertise, but docs - no way.)

Oh, and a slight threadjack - please don't let this thread devolve into another one of these: Monty Python - Argument Clinic - it seems like that's all this board is anymore.

Edited June 29, 2011 by hyohko

[classylady]

Classylady-that is awesome! Besides my mom, I honestly don't know any other female, Mormon doctors.

How old is your niece? I'm hoping to meet someone while in school as well. I'm scared that I'm already so old, and then the whole "doctor" thing is going to scare a lot of boys away but I just have to trust that things will work out for me.

My niece is around 28 or 29 years old.

[Echo2002]

Backroads- these words you wrote really stuck with me for some reason:

I don't for one second buy into the feminist idea of women being equal to men. We aren't. Plain and simple. We are unique. We have our divine nature. But, what I do prescribe to is equal opportunities and choices. Every woman, in our day, has the ability to choose. And as women, we should support and uplift each other in those choices, whatever they may be. We get to work if we want, or stay home if we want, or do both! I think it's an amazing time, and as long as we stay true to ourselves and Heavenly Father, and follow our own paths, how can we go wrong? There isn't one right way. Ahhh I digress...lol. :)

I agree 100% with this paragraph. Good luck on your meeting with the Bishop.

[dahlia]

See, it's posts like this that made me ask if the church wanted women to be stupid.

OP, I live in a ward with a lot of doctors doing residencies, grad students, fellows, etc. Every time some woman gets up to speak in church, she prefaces it with 'we came here because my husband is doing xxx.' As a JD & PhD myself, I got livid one Sunday. Why don't any of the women come here because they are doing something with themselves?

I dig all this family stuff, but I worry about women who have no education and will have a difficult time fending for themselves if something happens to the husband - especially when there are 4 & 5 kids involved. Not everyone needs college, but everyone should have some kind of skill and I'm not sure if I see it amongst many of the women in the ward.

Good luck in school. Others here know I have issues with running to the bishop about everything (I'm a convert, it ain't my style) and I certainly understand introducing yourself, but it's not like you have to hang out with the bishop. He can't deny you the sacrament because you're in med school, right? Med school is hard enough without having some negative voice in the back of your head the whole time.

[Vort]

See, it's posts like this that made me ask if the church wanted women to be stupid.

My wife earned her Master's degree and was ABD for her PhD before she decided, with only minor regard to the opinions of her husband and parents, to leave school and dedicate herself to child rearing full-time. I don't recall a single instance where she was discouraged from her educational path by leaders, or for that matter by members.

LDS leaders', members', and men's antipathy toward female education has been very grossly exaggerated, in my experience.

[Backroads]

LDS leaders', members', and men's antipathy toward female education has been very grossly exaggerated, in my experience.

I agree. I believe it's the examples of the uneducated Molly Mormon housewife that get stuck in our minds more than the examples of the educated wives/mothers/(gasp)single women who are serving their ward, families, etc.

[AGStacker]

Considering the number of LDS women i know who have either been left destitute because they have nothing to fall back on when their marriage falls apart, or have had to support their husbands and family cause their husbands are useless, or feel trapped in a marriage because they never explored a world outside the home to support them selves, i think the advice was less than helpful, more so because they followed the direct or implied counsel similar to what this bishop has said. In the ideal world where everything is always going to work out for the best, then maybe it makes sense, but all women should have something to fall back on at least, and having a career they love and find happiness in that can support her in times of need is a must.

Men lose jobs sometime you know.