Israel also sabotaged Irish ship, say Gaza flotilla organizers

[arvoreen73]

Israel also sabotaged Irish ship, say Gaza flotilla organizers - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News Edited June 30, 2011 by estradling75
Copyright

[rameumptom]

Good for Israel. PLO is using such flotillas to bring in weapons.

[lines]

On this issue I am not on anyones side because its none of my business. The Israel Palestine issue is between two foreign peoples in a foreign land. This is none of America's business and I am upset that some USA politicians have commented on the issue. It is none of the USA's business, it is between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

[NeuroTypical]

Allies shouldn't express opinions and take stands on issues that affects an ally?

That's an odd thing to get upset about...

[Latter Days Guy]

Yet again Israel goes out into international waters and attacks foreign aid ships. Isn't it about time they were bombed by NATO for the frequent violations and attacks on its citizens in the same way there doing in Libya? Israel doesn't want peace they just want to grab as much land as possible before there forced to the table to finally give back the land they have no actual claim to.

[NeuroTypical]

Yet again Israel goes out into international waters and attacks foreign aid ships

Yeah - "foreign aid". Such a tasty soundbyte. So seductive and easy to believe. Of course, it's not that most of the people initially planning the flotilla have abandoned it after learning of the facts on the ground, and how they can work with Israel to get aid into Gaza. It's not that the remaining boats contain hard-core terror activists. Of course there have been no threats of deadly violence from some of the boats. There couldn't be any information about stockpiles of sulphuric acid to be used on Israeli's boarding the boats. Nah - it's just the evil Israelis picking on peaceful relief workers.

Yeah. That's much easier to believe.

Israel doesn't want peace they just want to grab as much land as possible before there forced to the table to finally give back the land they have no actual claim to.

I'm always amazed at how incredibly far apart educated people can be on this issue.

From where I'm standing, Israel would love peace. Surrounded by enemies, several of which have "destruction of the jewish state" written into their founding documents as a top goal, living under the constant threat of terrorist bombing or missile attack, Israel understands a thing or two about peace. They understand one way to have peace with such enemies is to allow themselves to be wiped off the earth, but that option isn't too attractive. They understand that strength against enemies is why they're not all wiped off the earth. A lot of them understand endless patience in the face of unjust violence. They understand their enemies hide among children and noncombatants, launching attacks from their midst. They understand their enemies fight a global PR war as viciously as they fight with missiles and rockets.

Yeah, they'd love peace. But they understand how far away it is, given who it is they'd like to have peace with.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Traveler]

Yet again Israel goes out into international waters and attacks foreign aid ships. Isn't it about time they were bombed by NATO for the frequent violations and attacks on its citizens in the same way there doing in Libya? Israel doesn't want peace they just want to grab as much land as possible before there forced to the table to finally give back the land they have no actual claim to.

Not true. The country of Israel is in a state of war. One can argue who started what but that is not the point because the state of war exists by declaration. The point is that international law provides different standards of what is aid to countries that are at war and what a country in a state of war can do in international waters. Any shipment that does not conform to the articles of aid at time of war can legally be searched and confiscated in international waters. Also by international law a shipment of humanitarian aid cannot be armed.

It is very sad and disappointing when someone criticizes and blames those that conform to and enforce just and agreed upon laws and say nothing about those that break the law. Israel may have broken international law on other accessions - but I do not see any evidence here. If and when they do; action is justified and should be taken but even if one entity is breaking the law it does not give justification for another entity to break the law. By international law a aid ship to an area at war cannot have armaments (offensive or defensive) - that fact alone means it was not aid; regardless of cargo.

[NeuroTypical]

Breaking news from Ha'Aretz: Greece blocks departure of all Gaza-bound ships.

The Greek government issued a statement on Friday, saying that the departure of ships with Greek and foreign flags from Greek ports to the maritime area of Gaza has been prohibited. The statement explained that this is in a bid to prevent a breach of Israel’s naval blockade.

The Greek government stressed that local Hellenic Coast Guard Authorities must take all appropriate measures to implement the decision. It also warned that the broader maritime area of the eastern Mediterranean Sea will be continuously monitored by electronic means for tracking the movement of ships trying to participate in the flotilla.

Not a bad decision, especially considering the following facts about GB-UK's "foreign aid ships":

* The flotilla is being run by Muhammad Sawalha from the Muslim Brotherhood (on the US terrorist organization list since 2008).

* Many of the organizations participating in the flotilla have been linked with the Union of Good (UoG), associated with the Muslim Brotherhood.

* One of the organizers is the happy International Solidarity Movement (ISM). Google them - I dare ya.

Yeah, "foreign aid ships". Same folks as the last flotilla - slightly revised tactics. Let's remember what happened during the first flotilla.

Youtube:

Check out 2:05 ("shut up, go back to Auschwitz"), and 5:42 ("don't forget 9-11").

You can also google video of IDF boarding parties getting immediately attacked and savagely beaten by the peace-loving members of the first flotilla.

"Foreign Aid Ships". Heh. I can't get over it.

[HoosierGuy]

What the world needs is a very strong Iran who can keep Israel in check. Take away the Holocaust angle and holy land angle and I think more people would view Israel as a punk country.

[PrinceofLight2000]

What the world needs is a very strong Iran who can keep Israel in check. Take away the Holocaust angle and holy land angle and I think more people would view Israel as a punk country.

Iran's definition of keeping Israel "in check" is to nuke it into oblivion.

[Vort]

What the world needs is a very strong Iran who can keep Israel in check. Take away the Holocaust angle and holy land angle and I think more people would view Israel as a punk country.

Stupid Israel, with all those darn Jews and stuff. Bunch of punks, feeling all sorry for themselves just because six million of them were burned up. Whiners. Can't really blame all those Arab and Persian countries for wanting to finish the job, and replace their corrupt democracy with a stable, righteous Islamic republic. Then the world would for sure be a much better place.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Stupid Israel, with all those darn Jews and stuff. Bunch of punks, feeling all sorry for themselves just because six million of them were burned up. Whiners. Can't really blame all those Arab and Persian countries for wanting to finish the job, and replace their corrupt democracy with a stable, righteous Islamic republic. Then the world would for sure be a much better place.

I appreciate the caricature but I feel like it should be coupled with a rebuttal that's a little more contributing.

[lines]

I expressed that I felt very strongly the USA should be neutral with regards to situations involving Israel and Palestine and went on to say I am upset about USA politicians even commenting on matters pertaining to Israel and Palestine.

Someone replied to me that that it was strange for someone to get upset about American politicians commenting on matters that pertain to America's ally Israel.

My response to that is that countries that are in an alliance have a treaty, the treaty is what makes them allies. When countries do not have a formal treaty then they are not allies. As of now America and Israel do not have a treaty with each other and thus are not allies. America and Israel are not enemies. They are neither allies nor enemies.

[Vort]

I appreciate the caricature but I feel like it should be coupled with a rebuttal that's a little more contributing.

Why? That would be treating the comment as if it were worthy of a reasoned response.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Why? That would be treating the comment as if it were worthy of a reasoned response.

Appeal to ridicule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[LDSJewess]

What the world needs is a very strong Iran who can keep Israel in check. Take away the Holocaust angle and holy land angle and I think more people would view Israel as a punk country.

The problem is with that Hoosier, is that a very strong Iran would want to keep YOU in check as well. Americans are considered infidels just as much as the Israeli's.

After reading this thread, I find it appalling that there are members of the LDS church that are displaying such anti semitism. Learn something every day.

I will not continue to engage in more conversation on this thread where so much hate exists.

[lines]

We don't need anyone to keep anyone in check, no sense in meddling in the middle east. They are adults over there and can handle their own business amongst themselves without western busybodies further exasperating things.

[Vort]

Appeal to ridicule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You make the mistake of thinking I was offering a reasoned, logical rebuttal. I was not. The comment was absurd on its face and did not merit a reasoned response.

[PrinceofLight2000]

We don't need anyone to keep anyone in check, no sense in meddling in the middle east. They are adults over there and can handle their own business amongst themselves without western busybodies further exasperating things.

Is this a joke? You expect countries like Iran to act like adults?

You make the mistake of thinking I was offering a reasoned, logical rebuttal. I was not. The comment was absurd on its face and did not merit a reasoned response.

That's my point. You can't demonstrate that a comment is absurd by ridiculing it.

[Vort]

We don't need anyone to keep anyone in check, no sense in meddling in the middle east. They are adults over there and can handle their own business amongst themselves without western busybodies further exasperating things.

The Jewish state exists in Palestine because the western powers, including the US, put them there. We could have carved out part of the US as a Jewish state, but we did not. We put them in the most contested place in the world. We cannot just leave them to fend for themselves; that would be immoral.

By the way, I'm pretty sure you meant "exacerbating" rather than "exasperating". But that's another thread.

That's my point. You can't demonstrate that a comment is absurd by ridiculing it.

I beg to differ. :)

[lines]

The Jewish state exists in Palestine because the western powers, including the US, put them there. We could have carved out part of the US as a Jewish state, but we did not. We put them in the most contested place in the world. We cannot just leave them to fend for themselves; that would be immoral.

By the way, I'm pretty sure you meant "exacerbating" rather than "exasperating". But that's another thread.

Western busybodies are both exasperating and exacerbating the situation.

We, the USA, did not put Israel there. Some people in the jewish community established a zionist movement and they put themselves there. They lobbied the british government to help them set up a place for them to live when the whole place was called Palestine. And the british government agreed to it because it felt by doing so it would have greater access to certain trade routes.

Eventually some jews living there rebelled against the british because the british were restricting the amount of jewish immigrants to the region in an effort to prevent hostilities with the palestinians who felt their land was being encroached upon and annexed.

Some among the jews felt very strongly about letting more jews immigrate because this was during and after ww2 when jews were facing persecution in Europe.

Then they eventually won their independence.

So basically the west did not create Israel, jews participating in the zionist movement created it. It is a homeland for an ethnic group that I am not a member of. To the jewish people I am neither a friend nor am I an enemy of them.

It is their country and it is their responsibility to defend it if that is what they want to do. It is not my job as an American to pay taxes that become charity to the Israeli military.

It is not in Americans national interest to support Israel and it is not in Americas national interest to oppose Israel.

It is a foreign country that we do not have a treaty with.

[PrinceofLight2000]

I beg to differ. :)

Enjoy your logical fallacies.

[lines]

@Prince of Light

If Israel is having a problem with Iran or vice a versa then it is a issue for those two countries to solve amongst themselves and none of Americas business

[PrinceofLight2000]

Western busybodies are both exasperating and exacerbating the situation.

We, the USA, did not put Israel there. Some people in the jewish community established a zionist movement and they put themselves there. They lobbied the british government to help them set up a place for them to live when the whole place was called Palestine. And the british government agreed to it because it felt by doing so it would have greater access to certain trade routes.

Eventually some jews living there rebelled against the british because the british were restricting the amount of jewish immigrants to the region in an effort to prevent hostilities with the palestinians who felt their land was being encroached upon and annexed.

Some among the jews felt very strongly about letting more jews immigrate because this was during and after ww2 when jews were facing persecution in Europe.

Then they eventually won their independence.

So basically the west did not create Israel, jews participating in the zionist movement created it. It is a homeland for an ethnic group that I am not a member of. To the jewish people I am neither a friend nor am I an enemy of them.

It is their country and it is their responsibility to defend it if that is what they want to do. It is not my job as an American to pay taxes that become charity to the Israeli military.

It is not in Americans national interest to support Israel and it is not in Americas national interest to oppose Israel.

It is a foreign country that we do not have a treaty with.

Since you seem to insist that Israel is not one of our allies:

Major non-NATO ally - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"While the MNNA status does not automatically include a mutual defense pact with the United States, it does confer a variety of military and financial advantages that otherwise are not obtainable by non-NATO countries."

I'm not sure why a nation can't be considered an ally without a formal treaty.

[Vort]

Enjoy your logical fallacies.

It's a logical fallacy only if it's employed as a logical argument.