What constitutes "Failure in the Home"?

[Shoot_The_Moon]

The home is the first and most effective place for children to learn the lessons of life: truth, honor, virtue, self-control; the value of education, honest work, and the purpose and privilege of life. Nothing can take the place of home in rearing and teaching children, and no other success can compensate for failure in the home.

- David O. McKay

So ... what constitutes "Failure in the Home"?

[JudoMinja]

I believe its right there in your quote. Home is where children should be learning the "lessons of life: truth, honor, virtue, self-control; the value of education, honest work, and the purpose and privilege of life." If children are failing to learn those lessons, that failure falls on the heads of the parents, because they are "failing in the home".

[Jenamarie]

I can't remember where I heard it, but I once heard someone lament that "Today's children are growing up, but they're not being raised"

I think if you feed and clothe and house your children, but don't do much beyond that, then you've "failed". Of course, there are other ways of failing (like abuse), but that's one I'm seeing a lot of, and one that I find myself sometimes falling into as I get too distracted with the internet or hobbies, and DH gets distracted with television and work. It takes conscious effort to teach our children correct morals and principles of Truth. They're not going to pick it up by osmossis from our brains, and we can't be 100% dependent on the church or our communities to do it for us.

[rameumptom]

When the parents live their lives thinking that giving tons of stuff to their kids equates to being a good parent. I call it the Columbine Effect.

After all, what good parents wouldn't notice their kids building bombs and obtaining major armaments, doing videos, etc., all pointing to the attack on the high school? It seems there were lots of things pointing to problems, but they were too busy with their own lives to notice.

[RescueMom]

I have a question because I have a dear friend who is an older member and who is sure she has failed in the home and stewardship of her children. She has several grown children and several grandchildren. Some of her children remained active, however some of her children became inactive and have completely left the church. Now some of her grandchildren have no idea of any of the teachings. This woman and her husband were good parents, I was friends with one of her younger daughters, and they did FHE, went to church, were temple worthy, taught their children the gospel...yet she's had several fall away and feels like a failure. So is this truly a failure?

I don't see it as that, I see it as children having free choice, and perhaps she is learning what it is like to have unperfect children who need a savior. Perhaps its a learning experience for her and her lost children on how important the Savior and the Atonement really are. After all of us, except Christ, are lost children at one time or another. I hate to think that this woman carries so much guilt even though she was a good mother and did her best to teach her children.

Sometimes I think she is being tested to see how she would handle losing a child to sin. And I think wow this is exactly what our Heavenly Father must be going through, he loves each of us far more than we can love our own children, yet so many of us are lost to sin. I think sometimes she faces this trail to gain an understanding of what its like, and that must be something to learn, to step into our Fathers place if only for an instant of this life, to see children struggle, pray for them and hope they repent.

Well anyway I don't think she is a failure. I know many who will disagree and say otherwise. It just makes me more awestruck that we have the Atonement.

[zippy_do46]

I have a question because I have a dear friend who is an older member and who is sure she has failed in the home and stewardship of her children. She has several grown children and several grandchildren. Some of her children remained active, however some of her children became inactive and have completely left the church. Now some of her grandchildren have no idea of any of the teachings. This woman and her husband were good parents, I was friends with one of her younger daughters, and they did FHE, went to church, were temple worthy, taught their children the gospel...yet she's had several fall away and feels like a failure. So is this truly a failure?

I don't see it as that, I see it as children having free choice, and perhaps she is learning what it is like to have unperfect children who need a savior. Perhaps its a learning experience for her and her lost children on how important the Savior and the Atonement really are. After all of us, except Christ, are lost children at one time or another. I hate to think that this woman carries so much guilt even though she was a good mother and did her best to teach her children.

Sometimes I think she is being tested to see how she would handle losing a child to sin. And I think wow this is exactly what our Heavenly Father must be going through, he loves each of us far more than we can love our own children, yet so many of us are lost to sin. I think sometimes she faces this trail to gain an understanding of what its like, and that must be something to learn, to step into our Fathers place if only for an instant of this life, to see children struggle, pray for them and hope they repent.

Well anyway I don't think she is a failure. I know many who will disagree and say otherwise. It just makes me more awestruck that we have the Atonement.

We can teach and guide but there comes a time when we have to let them make that choice that we, as children of our Heavenly Father have to make. Sometimes it s not the choice we want them to make. The choice is still theirs to make. We as mothers can only do what we do best. Love them with all out heart and soul. Sometimes after we think they have made a choice to leave...they come back. Sometimes they do not. Just as my Heavenly Father has never given up on me ...I would not give up on them. I have learned that I just turn it over to my Heavenly Father. This is the only way I was able to get through those times when my children went less active.

[Guest]

I have a question because I have a dear friend who is an older member and who is sure she has failed in the home and stewardship of her children. She has several grown children and several grandchildren. Some of her children remained active, however some of her children became inactive and have completely left the church. Now some of her grandchildren have no idea of any of the teachings. This woman and her husband were good parents, I was friends with one of her younger daughters, and they did FHE, went to church, were temple worthy, taught their children the gospel...yet she's had several fall away and feels like a failure. So is this truly a failure?

I don't see it as that, I see it as children having free choice, and perhaps she is learning what it is like to have unperfect children who need a savior. Perhaps its a learning experience for her and her lost children on how important the Savior and the Atonement really are. After all of us, except Christ, are lost children at one time or another. I hate to think that this woman carries so much guilt even though she was a good mother and did her best to teach her children.

Sometimes I think she is being tested to see how she would handle losing a child to sin. And I think wow this is exactly what our Heavenly Father must be going through, he loves each of us far more than we can love our own children, yet so many of us are lost to sin. I think sometimes she faces this trail to gain an understanding of what its like, and that must be something to learn, to step into our Fathers place if only for an instant of this life, to see children struggle, pray for them and hope they repent.

Well anyway I don't think she is a failure. I know many who will disagree and say otherwise. It just makes me more awestruck that we have the Atonement.

I'm not inclined to think that Heavenly Father uses his children as pawns to teach each other lessons like that. I think it's entirely about agency. She did her best in carrying out her duty toward her children, and what they did with those teachings was up to them. For all she knows, she was sent more rebellious spirits because they had their best chance born under the covenant to a home where they would have the benefit of family home evening, temple worship, gospel instruction, and the like. It's just so hard to say. Going off of your post, though, it sounds to me like she did her best, and that's all that is ever really asked of us.

[Shoot_The_Moon]

This woman and her husband were good parents, I was friends with one of her younger daughters, and they did FHE, went to church, were temple worthy, taught their children the gospel...yet she's had several fall away and feels like a failure. So is this truly a failure?

I personally think the the "failure" that Pres. McKay was talking about was more an assessment of one's diligence, committment, and consecration towards the fulfilling of the duties as parents to raise children up unto the Lord, and not an "academic failure" where a negative grade is given at the end of class for not scoring high enough or not meeting the teacher's expectations for the class.

It would seem to me that if the Sister you were speaking of was fulfilling her duties with diligence, committment, and being fully consecrated, (which is between her and the Lord), then she was not failing. As has been stated before, the outcomes of the children still depend on their own use of free agency to follow the Lord, but if she has done all that she can do, then I believe it has been revealed that she would be blameless before the Lord.

Pres. Harold B. Lee did add the following to Pres. McKay's words:

Remember also that no home is a failure as long as that home doesn’t give up.

I guess what I am really questioning, is what sins of omission or comission would constitute a failure at that given point in time?

[JudoMinja]

I guess what I am really questioning, is what sins of omission or comission would constitute a failure?

I guess that is something the Lord looks at individually when the time of judgement comes, since there are no specifics given anywhere and every home situation is very unique. I mean, we could try to set out these general rules like- if you raise children that are liars you failed to teach them the lesson of "truth"... but there are way too many factors that could determine whether or not that is truly a failure on the part of the parents.

I think many homes in today's world are "failing", or we wouldn't have as many societal problems as we do now and we wouldn't have schools trying to pick up the slack on the lessons parents are supposed to be teaching their kids. However, I also think that those who tend to see themselves as failures are actually the ones doing a good job.

You have people that grow up to be delinquents because their home life was deplorable, but then others that grow up to be morally strong successful people that grew up in the same conditions. Then you have people with good homes that go both ways too... So just how much falls on the head of the parents and how much is because of individual choice? There is no way we can know exactly where to draw that line for every situation. There are just too many variables.

The best way I can think of to try and make that determination in your own life is to "liken the scritpures". Look for examples in the scriptures that are specifically pinpointed as successful and specifically pinpointed as failures. Make comparisons and try to determine where your own home lies. One good example I can think of is Nephi's family. Laman and Lemuel strayed from the gospel, but this sin was held on their own heads- not Lehi's. So Lehi, at least, was doing what he was supposed to do. However, the descendants of Laman and Lemuel were not held personally responsible for their own straying from the gospel as their parents never taught them. The "sins" of the Lamanite people were held on the heads of Laman and Lemuel.

We are each held accountable for our own actions in that we are to at least live up to the "light" we have been given. And we are to teach our children as best we can based on that light. Essentially, if we were all doing well in living up to our own "light" or beyond and teaching our children so that they did the same, the amount of "light" in the world would continuously increase.

[RescueMom]

The "sins" of the Lamanite people were held on the heads of Laman and Lemuel.

However at the end of the story it was the Nephites that failed.

[JudoMinja]

However at the end of the story it was the Nephites that failed.

But that failure did not fall on the head of Nephi or Lehi or any of those who came before that generation that fell away that did their best to teach the gospel to their descendants. The failure rested solely on the heads of those who did not live up to what they were taught.

When we fail to teach our children, any failings they have later in life due to that lack of teaching falls on our heads. When we DO teach our children and they still fall away, that falls on the heads of our children, not us. Where exactly to draw the line though, as I said previously, is difficult and entirely unique to every situation.

[RescueMom]

I just think the BoM shows that righteous parents can have unrighteous offspring,...and the opposite. Which goes to the whole point, I guess, teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves...after a person reaches adulthood, they can no longer blame mom and dad if they go astray.

I guess I look at this way if parents teach their children the gospel, but then those children go astray, the parents have not failed in their duty, because we can't force people to live a good life, even if they know better.

And then sometimes the prodigal son returns...such as Alma the Younger. Or even perhaps Paul. I am sure that no one questioned if Alma Sr. failed in his duties to his son more than he did himself when Alma Jr. was out persecuting the saints. However, through the power of the Atonement and forgiveness, we see what Alma Jr. became. (and yes I used Sr. and Jr.)

That all said, even if parents fail at teaching their children, there is always a way to fix that. We get several chances to repent, grow and learn...the Atonement is forever not for just right now, we even have 1000 years before final judgement to fix things. I'm not saying it will be easy to gain forgiveness, but I don't think our Father wants any of his children to fail and will give every possible opportunity to help them as many times as possible until final judgement...and we can't possibly know who or what will be considred a failure in Gods eyes, only he can judge that (and I am thankful that's his job)

[Blackmarch]

The home is the first and most effective place for children to learn the lessons of life: truth, honor, virtue, self-control; the value of education, honest work, and the purpose and privilege of life. Nothing can take the place of home in rearing and teaching children, and no other success can compensate for failure in the home.

- David O. McKay

So ... what constitutes "Failure in the Home"?

When a parent stops striving to live the gospel, and encourage their children to do so is the only thing that i can think of that might constitute such.

[Shoot_The_Moon]

When a parent stops striving to live the gospel, and encourage their children to do so is the only thing that i can think of that might constitute such.

What if the parent thinks they are living the Gospel, but in reality are following incomplete / false doctrine or making excuses for themselves from universal principles?

[Shoot_The_Moon]

I guess that is something the Lord looks at individually when the time of judgement comes, since there are no specifics given anywhere and every home situation is very unique.

It is true, every home is unique, but does that mean that each family has it's own "version" of the Gospel that they are expected to adhere to? I think we are a real danger if we try to "tailor" the Gospel to each family - adjusting expectations of diligence and consecration based on one's situation. I think Elder Maxwell helped us to draw the line on this one:

Eternalism focuses on changing the individual by teaching him correct principles. Secularism tends to deal increasingly with adjustments outside man.

Although we may not be given many specifics, (or "Letter of the Law"), when it comes to this topic, but we have countless principles and words given to us through scripture and modern Prophets / Apostples / Church leaders. It is these that I'm really trying to start up a discussion about - what principles, when not done with full diligence, constitute the state of failure Pres. McKay was warning us about?

As far as each situation being "unique", this is true, but it may not have the weight that people give it. From my understanding, eternal law is in-flexible, but the Gospel of Christ is scalable to each person based on what the Lord knows we are capable of while expecting us to offer a "broken heart and contrite spirit" in return. However, I am concerned that many people may feel that their "uniqueness" means that they have a "unique" subset of principles they are accountable for.

I think Elder Lynn G. Robbins has some further light and knowledge here when learning what can be expected in a given situation:

Because the natural man tends to hoard or consume everything, the Lord wisely commanded ancient Israel to sacrifice not the last and poorest of the flock, but the firstlings—not the leftovers of the field, but the firstfruits (see Deut. 26:2; Mosiah 2:3; Moses 5:5). Genuine sacrifice has been a hallmark of the faithful from the beginning.

Among those who do not sacrifice there are two extremes: one is the rich, gluttonous man who won’t and the other is the poor, destitute man who believes he can’t. But how can you ask someone who is starving to eat less? Is there a level of poverty so low that sacrifice should not be expected or a family so destitute that paying tithing should cease to be required?

The story of the widow of Zarephath is an example of extreme poverty used to teach the doctrine that mercy cannot rob sacrifice any more than it can rob justice. In fact, the truer measure of sacrifice isn't so much what one gives to sacrifice as what one sacrifices to give (see Mark 12:43). Faith isn’t tested so much when the cupboard is full as when it is bare. In these defining moments, the crisis doesn’t create one’s character—it reveals it. The crisis is the test.

...

One reason the Lord illustrates doctrines with the most extreme circumstances is to eliminate excuses. If the Lord expects even the poorest widow to pay her mite, where does that leave all others who find that it is not convenient or easy to sacrifice?

I think we can be too quick to excuse those we see around us from having to sacrifice because we feel pity for the circumstances that are not necessarily of their own doing, (and even then we may victimize them because we think their choices were caused by forces out of their control). But, I feel doing so is an incorrect understanding of agency. From Elder Oaks:

Essential to our doctrinal position on these matters is the difference between our freedom and our agency. Our freedom can be limited by various conditions of mortality, but God’s gift of agency cannot be limited by outside forces, because it is the basis for our accountability to him. The contrast between freedom and agency can be illustrated in the context of a hypothetical progression from feelings to thoughts to behavior to addiction. This progression can be seen on a variety of matters, such as gambling and the use of tobacco and alcohol.

There are many who have great difficulty in fulfilling their duties as parents, and some who are incapable at all. But, does that mean that they are released from this eternal calling? Does that mean that they are released from consecrating their time, talents, and everything else that the Lord blesses them with? I don't believe so. This is where the Law of Consecration comes into play. The direct results of our labors may be insufficient to take care of the physical, temporal, and spiritual needs of our families, but that is where the welfare system of the Church comes into play - we give everything we have to give first, and then trust in the Lord that he will help make up the difference.

I think there is a lot of homes that may believe, (or that we may believe for them), that they are "exceptions" to the rule that are really just fooling themselves. Those families that are correctly giving their all and still are not able to teach or provide for their families are up to the Bishop to determine and handle.

...I mean, we could try to set out these general rules like- if you raise children that are liars you failed to teach them the lesson of "truth"...

I think what Pres. McKay was trying to communicate when he discusses "failure" isn't so much about the effects, as the effort and desires of our hearts. I honestly don't see how having children choose against righteous lessons taught in the home would be a reflection on those teaching as much as it as a reflection on those who are choosing not to learn.

... but there are way too many factors that could determine whether or not that is truly a failure on the part of the parents.

If, by "failure", you mean that the parents were not able to reach the desired result, (i.e. children who follow the Lord), then you are right that there are a lot of factors involved, but they all boil down to agency on the part of those being taught. If by "failure" you mean that the parents were not living and teaching as they were supposed to, then once again it comes down to agency on the part of the parents, and we have been promised that we will always have the ability to use agency so much as the parents themselves do not do anything that limits the choices they can make as a consequence of previous unrighteous choices.

No matter what our situation or circumstance, we are to pursue steady dedication to our duty to teach and sustain our families. Elder Oaks adds:

The principle I have espoused, that we should pursue steady dedication and avoid frenzied excesses, could be understood as implying that we should have "moderation in all things." Not so. The Savior has commanded us to serve with all our "heart, might, mind and strength" (D&C 4:2), to "seek . . . earnestly the riches of eternity" (D&C 68:31), and to be "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79). He has also told us that if we are lukewarm, he will spue us out of his mouth (see Revelations 3:16). The thrust of my examples is that we should be steadfast and consistent in our dedication, our commitment, and our efforts.

...However, I also think that those who tend to see themselves as failures are actually the ones doing a good job.

I think we need to be cautious of telling those who feel like failures that they are doing enough - they may be responding to a prompting that there is still either more to give, or more to give up that is not helping their families. The process of gaining an understanding of how much is required of them will help them not only to rely on the Lord more, but also have a better understanding of what areas of their lives still need additional consecration, (because a fully consecrated life doesn't have space for such thoughts as "I'm a failure because I can't accomplish enough").

I think one of the best things we can do for those people is share correct doctrine to add comfort to their soul. (Once again...) Elder Oaks adds:

Some years ago Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught how we can be guided by this standard of “wisdom and order” and be comforted by the assurance that we are not required to run faster than we have strength (see “Wisdom and Order,” Ensign, June 1994, p. 41). In describing how we can “manage ourselves wisely” he quoted Anne Morrow Lindbergh, who said, “My life cannot implement in action the demands of all the people to whom my heart responds.” Elder Maxwell taught that “some choices are matters of preference, not principle,” adding that “wisdom and order [will] help us to separate preferences from principles” (p. 43).

We are wise to conclude that we can’t do it all and that we are not required to. When we feel overwhelmed with all that presses upon us, we should pray for inspiration to guide us in identifying what is required by eternal principles. These things command priority. We do them first. Then, in the time that remains, we pray for wisdom to exercise our preferences among those things that are merely good but not essential. Finally, when inspired wisdom has guided our choices, we proceed, as President Hinckley has taught us, to just “do the very best [we] can.”

...So just how much falls on the head of the parents and how much is because of individual choice? There is no way we can know exactly where to draw that line for every situation. There are just too many variables....

It all comes down to responsibility for individual agency. The parents have a solemn responsibility to teach their children through love and being a righteous example. The children have a responsibility to learn righteous habits, (even if their parents are not teaching them correctly).

As for the variables, the Lord is actively taking part in making sure those are cancelled out and that there is ample opportunity to use our agency to be obedient, or show that we will turn away from him.

...We are each held accountable for our own actions in that we are to at least live up to the "light" we have been given. And we are to teach our children as best we can based on that light. Essentially, if we were all doing well in living up to our own "light" or beyond and teaching our children so that they did the same, the amount of "light" in the world would continuously increase.

That will be something to be seen - I just hope my family is there to enjoy it together.

-----

Okay - I think we've covered a lot of ground, but we still haven't gotten to the meat of the topic: What principles, when not lived up to with full diligence, constitute the state of failure Pres. McKay was warning us about?

[Traveler]

The home is the first and most effective place for children to learn the lessons of life: truth, honor, virtue, self-control; the value of education, honest work, and the purpose and privilege of life. Nothing can take the place of home in rearing and teaching children, and no other success can compensate for failure in the home.

- David O. McKay

So ... what constitutes "Failure in the Home"?

Anything less than being sealed by covenant through the Holy Ghost - See D&C 132 starting with verse 7 - I think.

The Traveler

[Blackmarch]

What if the parent thinks they are living the Gospel, but in reality are following incomplete / false doctrine if they honestly believe they are doing whats right for them and their children or making excuses for themselves from universal principles?

then sooner or later they will have to repent.

[zippy_do46]

I think this is why every man can see and get answers to what he needs in the gospel. There are those things that are fixed in the gospel and those things which we must go to our Father for the answers. Every family is diffrent. Their needs both phyical and spirtual differ from others. Make it simple. Ask Heavenly Father and then get busy. The answers will be there for you if you are doing your part. We can not take ourselves out of the equation if we expect answers for our family.

[JudoMinja]

The reason I have been vague in my answer is because I feel it is wrong to point out specific things and say the doing or lack of doing those things will result in a "failure". It's not up to me to come up with such a list. If the Prophets have not given us more specifics, then that is something that falls to individual revelation, and that is probably why you are having such a hard time finding the answer to your question.

For example- Probably one of the closest things to a specific guideline given us by the Prophets is the need to hold Family Home Evening. There is even an outline for how and when this should be done- Monday nights, gather the whole family together, have a spiritual lesson, spend time together, work on specific things your family may need to improve on, communicate, serve one another.. etc. If a family does not do this, have they failed? Maybe. Maybe not. What if they don't hold it on Monday nights? What if they only do it once a month? What if they share no spiritual message and only spend time together? Does this mean they've failed in their duty?

Failure is such a definitive term. It is final, absolute, complete. I would never feel comfortable saying someone ELSE has failed in anything. No matter how awry they may have gone, I would not call another person a failure, because it is not my place to judge. I don't think I would even feel comfortable assessing my own work in my home as a "failure" OR a "success", because these are such absolute terms and my work won't be done for quite some time.

That being said, you are probably looking for ways you can improve your efforts, or advice you can give others on how to improve their own efforts in their homes. I believe that if we assess where we are now and set goals to make little improvements, then our efforts in the home will slowly become better. It will be very individualized, but it should rely on the revelations in scriptures and given to us by our modern Prophets. Instead of looking for a specific "if you're not doing this you're failing", individualize it and find improvements for yourself, your family, or whoever it is you are concerned about enough to bring up this topic.

The problem with drawing a line is that then people tend to "ride" that line and become fence sitters. People will start feeling that as long as they avoid doing the things listed that constitute a "failure" they are doing alright and they will become stagnant and stop improving. There is always room for improvement, and as long as we continue striving to do better than we were before I think we will be alright when we stand before the judgement bar and have the Lord deem whether or not we have "failed" or "succeeded".

[beefche]

Okay - I think we've covered a lot of ground, but we still haven't gotten to the meat of the topic: What principles, when not lived up to with full diligence, constitute the state of failure Pres. McKay was warning us about?

It sounds to me that you want to prioritize the principles of the Gospel. I'm not sure how we can rate one principle above another.