Is Unconfessed Murder Forgiveable?

[Vort]

D&C 64:9

9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the L-rd; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

If I were you I would be very careful what and who I accuse of being absurd.

The Traveler

I am well familiar with the D&C verse. I assumed you were referencing it. I maintain that it is absurd to think that murdering someone is less serious or "great" than not forgiving the murderer. I do not believe the verse is talking about murder.

[Traveler]

I am well familiar with the D&C verse. I assumed you were referencing it. I maintain that it is absurd to think that murdering someone is less serious or "great" than not forgiving the murderer. I do not believe the verse is talking about murder.

What about the atonement of Christ has you convinced that there is no payment for the sin of murder to be considered? The reason we must forgive is because of the atonement - without the atonement forgiveness is meaningless - Because of the atonement forgiveness is both necessary and required before we can be forgiven. I see your stand as a rejection of the atonement as well as the divine commandment to forgive and the infinite nature of both.

The Traveler

Edited July 12, 2011 by Traveler

[Vort]

What about the atonement of Christ has you convinced that there is no payment for the sin of murder to be considered?

Nothing. This is your (incorrect) inference, not my implication.

I see your stand as a rejection of the atonement as well as the divine commandment to forgive and the infinite nature of both.

Then you see wrong.

[rameumptom]

Traveler, you seem to see things very different than most of us here.

Yes, we are to forgive all people. If a person fully repents and makes amends for his/her sin, but the person who was harmed does not forgive, the latter ends up with the greater sin. It isn't quite as you read it, IOW.

Vort is correct in this instance. The reality is, any sin will keep us from God's presence and as a candidate for Spirit Prison hell. Only full and complete repentance can prevent that. For the one who needs to forgive, that person will also need to repent if he refuses to forgive. That said, refusing to forgive and learning how to forgive can be two very different things altogether. Some may want to forgive, but must first get through the pain and suffering to get to a place to forgive.

That is why this progression continues into the Spirit World. And perhaps even beyond that point.

Yes, the atonement is necessary for forgiveness to occur. But that forgiveness mentioned is the forgiveness of Christ, not from us. A person who murders must seek Christ's forgiveness, as well as the family he has harmed. If the family does not forgive him, he still may receive Christ's forgiveness after much repenting.

But it doesn't answer nor explain your arguments. It is almost as if they are only half thought out.

[Dravin]

I see your stand as a rejection of the atonement as well as the divine commandment to forgive and the infinite nature of both.

Except he neither implied nor stated that we aren't required to forgive. Just that when talking about something like murder, or say denying the Holy Ghost that literally not forgiving the person who committed such is a sin worse that being a Son of Perdition or a Murder.

It's like turning the other cheek. If someone insults us by backhanding us or what have you we are to be meek, humble, and forgiving, we are not to go out seeking revenge. One can still believe we need to turn the other cheek while disagreeing if someone is beating you to within an inch or your life, or say your child, that one must 'turn the other cheek' and do nothing but continue to allow the assault.

I'm not sure if the scripture in question is to be taken in such a literal extreme or if such an interpretation is stretching it beyond it's intent personally, but there is precedent for legitimately believing something is being applied beyond it's scope even if it could be read that way. Heck, the scripture in question follows talking about the disciples carrying grudges against each other, if you think about modern day disciples in the Church the grudges we see are not generally over murder or being a Son of Perdition but 'lesser' items.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Dravin

[jerome1232]

I wanted to point out that Moses, a great prophet, committed murder, and ran from the local law. I presume he was forgiven.

[Vort]

I wanted to point out that Moses, a great prophet, committed murder, and ran from the local law. I presume he was forgiven.

By definition, murder is intentional killing that is unlawful, either legally or morally. While Moses' killing was obviously illegal and thus murder in a strictly legal sense, it is debatable whether it was immoral and thus murder in the moral sense.

[Jamie123]

By definition, murder is intentional killing that is unlawful, either legally or morally. While Moses' killing was obviously illegal and thus murder in a strictly legal sense, it is debatable whether it was immoral and thus murder in the moral sense.

If I remember the story rightly Moses didn't need to kill that Egyptian in order to prevent his cruelty. He killed him because he lost his temper. Can this be regarded as "moral"?

Also David (indirectly) murdered Uriah, simply in order to satisfy his own lust. And he certainly was forgiven! (2 Samuel 12:13)

Edited July 13, 2011 by Jamie123

[jerome1232]

By definition, murder is intentional killing that is unlawful, either legally or morally. While Moses' killing was obviously illegal and thus murder in a strictly legal sense, it is debatable whether it was immoral and thus murder in the moral sense.

True, The details aren't very clear, but based on what is said United States law would classify it as 2nd degree murder. He killed an Egyptian for beating a fellow Hebrew, who was a slave, an emotionally hot reaction. I can't justify a man killing another man for that as being just. There are others who have killed in the scriptures that had and have kept a high standing with God.

Particularly Nephi is commanded to kill. The jews are commanded to wage war in sections of the bible resulting in bloodshed.

D&C 42:18 seems to be at odds with all of that. I just think more things point to murder as being forgivable, perhaps this verse is referring to a cold blooded murder?

btw I'm new here

[Vort]

If I remember the story rightly Moses didn't need to kill that Egyptian in order to prevent his cruelty. He killed him because he lost his temper. Can this be regarded as "moral"?

By definition, slaves are powerless under the law. The slaves were unable to defend themselves. Moses may well have felt that the only way to prevent the Egyptian's continued abuse of the Hebrew slaves was to get rid of him permanently. We don't know, of course. It's all conjecture. But that's the point. It was murder in a strictly legal sense, but whether it was murder in a moral sense is not obvious.

[bytor2112]

Also David (indirectly) murdered Uriah, simply in order to satisfy his own lust. And he certainly was forgiven! (2 Samuel 12:13)

Maybe not......

Doctrine and Covenants 132:39

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

[Suzie]

Maybe not......

Doctrine and Covenants 132:39

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

The scripture doesn't say David wasn't forgiven. It says he won't receive Exaltation.

[jerome1232]

If your not exalted doesn't that explicitly imply you were not forgiven for something

[Traveler]

The one little fact that many have missed is the sin that is known as the “shedding of innocent blood”. Because of symbolism many do not understand the “extent” of what is being said. The only innocent blood to be shed in all the history of mankind is the blood of Jesus Christ that was shed to redeem all mankind from sins that we may be “free from the blood and sins of this generation”.

What many do not seem to understand is that the atonement is not just the freeing us from our sins but the means of freeing us from the sins of all those that have transgressed against us or against anyone else as well as the fall of man (that involves much more that Adam and Eve taking the “forbidden fruit”).

We are talking about the plan of salvation that was instituted from what the scriptures call the “beginning”. We are talking about the very nature and love of G-d. We are talking about the basis and reason of salvation. None of which can be for that individual that does not forgive.

I see the equivocation that D&C 64:9 do not apply in any way shape or form to murder as an outright lie. A person can be forgiven of murder but they cannot and will not be forgiven for not forgiving. Ponder that thought and what it means. The greatest sin is the sin for which there is no forgiveness. This particular sin may have other names but the only specific action that I have been able to specifically identify and that is specifically identified in scripture - is the refusal to forgive. Thus it is the sin of perdition.

One last point: Sin is not about what it does to others - it is not because of what the non-forgiving do to others - the scriptures truly bear witness that in Christ all damage of sin is overcome - with one exception. That is the sin that one does to themselves when they do not forgive. Because many falsely think of sin as harming others they think of sins as the worse sin doing the most damage to others. This is false and wrong thinking. Any damage to others is 100% overcome by the atonement of Christ for he truly redeemed for all sins. The problem with sin is what we do to ourselves - the greatest damage is clearly testified to in scripture and that is the sin for which there is not nor can be forgiveness - the sin that the atonement cannot overcome - the sin of not forgiving. Murder??? Be not deceived - it is possible in eternity to be forgiven for murder.

The Traveler

[Suzie]

If your not exalted doesn't that explicitly imply you were not forgiven for something

Not in my opinion.

Your 16 year old son takes your car (despite the fact that you told him he can't) and gets into an accident. He realizes how wrong he was and is truly repentant for what he has done and seek your forgiveness. You forgive him for disobeying you, but does it mean now that he's going to get away scot free and won't face the consequences for disobeying? I don't think so. Forgiveness doesn't equal lack of punishment/consequence.

Mercy cannot rob justice.

[jerome1232]

Not in my opinion.

Your 16 year old son takes your car (despite the fact that you told him he can't) and gets into an accident. He realizes how wrong he was and is truly repentant for what he has done and seek your forgiveness. You forgive him for disobeying you, but does it mean now that he's going to get away scot free and won't face the consequences for disobeying? I don't think so. Forgiveness doesn't equal lack of punishment/consequence.

Mercy cannot rob justice.

I've always had the atonement explained to me as Jesus being a middleman, paying our debt to god, now owing our debt to him. Not getting away scot free. The repentance process is your suffering now for your actions rather than latter after death.

edit: I guess this is getting off topic though isn't it

[maiku]

Now that we got the verdict that Casey Anthony is going to get away with murder, I'd like to ask, can a person who refuses to confess murder be forgiven?

I love the assumption that she's guilty lol!

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned but the "murderer's" state of mind at the time of the act is pretty important in determining whether it is actually murder (murder in a more legal sense).

My point is that if Casey Anthony or someone else is unable to understand the consequences of the action or if the person is under the age of accountability (age 8). This is what makes this such a gray matter.

The quote from D&C mentioned above isn't so clear cut as it may seem. Acts of self defense are considered murder (Nephites defending their land and freedom against the Lamanites).

In cases of cold blooded murder where the murderer is aware of what is happening, (like Casey Anthony in my opinion) is responsible for her act, D&C 48;?? DOES take effect and she will not be forgiven.

[Dravin]

A person can be forgiven of murder but they cannot and will not be forgiven for not forgiving.

Yes they can, they just need to do what the murder has to, repent of the sin (not forgiving). If you were correct that not forgiving was unforgivable than we would all have to instantly forgive any offense rendered. If my sibling ticks me off and it takes me until the next night to forgive them in the mean time I'm guilty of not forgiving. If it really was an unforgivable sin I and anyone else who has ever taken time to manage to forgive someone is hosed.

[bytor2112]

The scripture doesn't say David wasn't forgiven. It says he won't receive Exaltation.

No, but it sure sounds that way.... if David cannot repent and receive exaltation then he is surely not deemed worthy to receive all that his Father hath.

[bytor2112]

Not in my opinion.

Your 16 year old son takes your car (despite the fact that you told him he can't) and gets into an accident. He realizes how wrong he was and is truly repentant for what he has done and seek your forgiveness. You forgive him for disobeying you, but does it mean now that he's going to get away scot free and won't face the consequences for disobeying? I don't think so. Forgiveness doesn't equal lack of punishment/consequence.

Mercy cannot rob justice.

Yeah.....but, it also doesn't mean that he eventually can't get a car and drive either. If the Lord is so wroth with David that he can not receive exaltation, then he must have not fully repented or is unable to fully repent or repentance/forgiveness is out of reach.

If one has truly repented and been forgiven, the Lord no longer sees his sins.

[Traveler]

Yes they can, they just need to do what the murder has to, repent of the sin (not forgiving). If you were correct that not forgiving was unforgivable than we would all have to instantly forgive any offense rendered. If my sibling ticks me off and it takes me until the next night to forgive them in the mean time I'm guilty of not forgiving. If it really was an unforgivable sin I and anyone else who has ever taken time to manage to forgive someone is hosed.

I do not want to get caught up in semantics but having read your post several times I have no idea at all what you are trying to say. How can a person repent of not forgiving without first forgiving? I believe the scriptures are very specific on this very important point - repentance of any sin cannot and does not take place without forgiving. If I have left out something from scripture - please let us discuss what I have missed. Please note that being sorry for being caught or things coming to light are quite different than repentance. Do we understand repentance?

Perhaps we should have a discussion on repentance and forgiveness. D&C 132 comes to mind. Also I have yet to see any scripture to indicate anything different from what I have stated as clearly as I can. Without forgiving others there can be no forgiveness - of any sin - ever. There is no born again, no “oneness” with G-d and no covenant of baptism for the remission of sins without forgiveness. It does not happen - we can pretend but in pretending we only lie to ourselves.

The Traveler

[Dravin]

I do not want to get caught up in semantics but having read your post several times I have no idea at all what you are trying to say.

I'm saying one can be forgiven for not forgiving someone.

How can a person repent of not forgiving without first forgiving?

They can't, but it's not like your murderer can repent while continuing to murder people either. Your question seems to be operating under the thinking that if they did repent (by forgiving at a minimum) they would be forgiven. This doesn't jive with a claim that not forgiving someone is something that cannot be forgiven.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Dravin

[rameumptom]

Traveler,

You ARE caught up in semantics. What if a person desires to forgive, but the event was so emotionally and mentally tough on them that they had a nervous breakdown? Can an emotionally destabilized person not repent without first having to forgive?

I think you live a very black/white world, which is not how God nor most mortals live. He commands us to forgive, yes. But the process of repentance includes forgiving. It is A step, but not necessarily the first step.

And I think you are making too big of a deal regarding forgiveness. As I stated, some people are incapable of fully forgiving. Does that mean they are cast off forever, never to be forgiven themselves? I don't think God is such a hard a$$ that he cannot forgive someone who is doing his/her best to deal with a situation.

You are viewing the Old Testament/hell-fire and damnation God. And you take chapters and scriptures out of context. Yes, some say we must forgive to be forgiven. But there are also scriptures that say we need but believe and shall be saved. So, taking one tidbit and expanding it to the point you did tends to contort the gospel, rather than take all of it into context.

[Traveler]

I'm saying one can be forgiven for not forgiving someone.

They can't, but it's not like your murderer can repent while continuing to murder people either. Your question seems to be operating under the thinking that if they did repent (by forgiving at a minimum) they would be forgiven. This doesn't jive with a claim that not forgiving someone is something that cannot be forgiven.

There is a very obvious difference. A murder kills someone and then goes about other things - they can almost even forget that they have committed a murder. This is not true of a person that refuses to forgive. Every second of every day and night they continue to reenact their sin. They never forget but the memory becomes clearer, more hurtful, more everything - the impact of it becomes stronger with every second of reinforcement. It does not just sit there but it grows and will continue to grow. It becomes to take on almost a character of its own and soon it begins to possess even the very will of the person that continues to entertain it.

Contrary to your suggestion not forgiving is not a one time and done thing. It becomes an infinite loop turning back on itself. What may have started out as a tiny little thing among the closest of friends or even two people in love will grow until it destroys love, forgets happiness and creates hate that will justify anything. It can continue with such power that a person can even forget the cause at the beginning - they can forget what it was that they did not forgive and not even know why - then like Ahab of Moby **** they seek their own doom. And that is just the beginning.

Granted that some will begin to realize their trouble and seek relief. But the only relief is forgiveness. Some try to forget - to move on without forgiving but even then it begins to fester deep in their soul and then blossom in full bloom at the next opportunity. The scriptures are clear - the only relief is actual and real forgiveness - anything else is a lie. It is the first and it is the last step to perdition as well as the engine and excuse for every step in between.

The Traveler

[Dravin]

Traveler, you are bouncing off the walls in your responses. My position is really quite simple:

I don't forgive my brother for 5 years because he's offended me. After those 5 years I repent, I honestly and truly forgive him. Can I be forgiven for my failure to forgive for those 5 years?

If yes - Then not forgiving can be forgiven.

If no - Anyone who has ever taken any amount of time to forgive (as opposed to instantaneously), even if just 5 seconds, cannot be forgiven of the sin of not forgiving and pretty much everyone on this planet is hosed because we're all mired in the sin of not forgiving (no matter how brief) and cannot ever obtain forgiveness it.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Dravin