My first interaction with an actual anti-Mormon

[prisonchaplain]

Bytebear...on that latter example, you'll find many of my bretheren who would say that such are "liberal 'so-called' Christians." You may find this biting sarcasm nevertheless more generous than what some direct your way, but many evangelicals would find it difficult to break bread in fellowship with the anti-supernaturalist liberals who discount miracles, and view the Bible as similar in inspiration to Shakespeare.

[prisonchaplain]

I do not want to deride this string, but I'm left begging this question...do any of you believe it is even possible for some soul to believe they are Christian and yet not qualify, due to grossly false doctrine, or illicit behavior? If so, and you had a relationship with them, would you prayerfully intervene by gently confronting them?

[Guest gopecon]

PC - I think it's definitely possible for someone to believe they are Christian, yet be so far off from the truth (via sinful lifestyle or false doctrine) as to not be counted as a follower by the Lord. That said, I don't want to be - and can't be - the one to see and judge their hearts. That task falls to the One who they claim to believe in.

The frustration that LDS feel is that even though we feel that we have the "Restored Gospel" and are thus the "most true" version of Christianity, we are generally happy to share the title of Christian with any sincere followers of the Master. We'd just like the same courtesy extended to us.

[Guest gopecon]

As far as getting into online debates about various doctrines, it's safe to say that very few anti-mormon posters will be changed by our arguments. The problem is that there may be some who are honest in heart that can be touched, and there are countless people who could surf into threads and have their real questions answered. This latter group is who I would try to think of when answering questions and debating points. If we can keep a loving, non-contentious spirit in our replies we might touch someone who happens to find the conversation.

[Guest mysticmorini]

I do not want to deride this string, but I'm left begging this question...do any of you believe it is even possible for some soul to believe they are Christian and yet not qualify, due to grossly false doctrine, or illicit behavior? If so, and you had a relationship with them, would you prayerfully intervene by gently confronting them?

To throw another wrench in the works is it fair for Mormons to say fundamentalists aren’t Mormon? What if PC decided to call himself a Mormon? (not saying that he is a polygamist :))

[JudoMinja]

Well, I think I've thanked just about every post in here so far... Thanks guys! This is a ton of great input, and some of it is giving me more to think about even. This guys last public post came right after what I've put on here and was basically a "then lets agree to disagree" post, so I guess that is a fairly graceful conclusion.

I am enjoying the discussion this is inspiring on here though and want to address this in particular:

I do not want to deride this string, but I'm left begging this question...do any of you believe it is even possible for some soul to believe they are Christian and yet not qualify, due to grossly false doctrine, or illicit behavior? If so, and you had a relationship with them, would you prayerfully intervene by gently confronting them?

Since an individual's Christianity is dependant on the alignment of their heart, I'd say it is very possible for someone to believe they are Christian and in all actuality be sorely mistaken. Since I feel a Christian is someone who accepts the Lord as their Savior and attempts to follow His teachings, I think we can use the actions of another as a way to ascertain whether or not they are really "Christian". Essentially- "by their fruits ye shall know them". Even people who do not claim to be Christian, I think, if they spend the majority of their life producing "good fruit" are Christian in their hearts and may accept Him as their Savior someday. Furthermore, those who claim to be Christian but go around spreading "bad fruit" are not really aligned with Christ.

Since I can only judge based on these fruits and cannot see the hearts of individuals, any judgement I make about anothers Christianity will fall short, so I tend to give people the benefit of doubt. I believe we will be held accountable for living up to the knowledge we've been given. Many are taught incorrectly but strive their best to do what is right. Christ can see their hearts and knows if they are truly trying to follow Him to the best of their abilities. I can't. I can only see the "fruit". So, for all the little things and small differences, I'll leave that up to the Lord to handle.

Now if I am associated with someone who has clearly gone astray? I usually opt for not confronting them on the matter. Instead, I strive to let my life be an example and if they ever approach me to ask advice I offer it as tactfully as possible. I rarely tell such a person something like "you are wrong". Rather, I might say something like "I believe doing this (whatever more Christ-like action pertains to their situation) will be very helpful to you". Whether or not they choose to follow my advice is up to them.

[imcurious]

That was my initial purpose in making the first comment, and I guess I got lost in the circular banter and started feeling like I was making no impact. I knew from the get-go that I wouldn't make a dent in this guy. After posting here about it and looking back at our conversation, I saw that someone else on there thanked me for my comments on his video. That was the whole point of it all- making sure anyone who came across his video would see that there is more to it than the information he is providing. So I guess I achieved my goal afterall. :)

My main goal in being a part of this forum is to watch the tennis match and try to understand why there is such aggression between my own faith (non-denomination Christianity) and Mormonism, so this conversation is perfectly aligned with what I am seeking. Thanks!

[spamlds]

Anti-Mormons can never teach by the Spirit of the Lord. That's why they work in circular reasoning and try to trip you up with scriptural arguments or tenets. To Martin Harris, the Lord said this in D&C Section 19--

29And thou shalt declare glad tidings, yea, publish it upon the mountains, and upon every high place, and among every people that thou shalt be permitted to see.

30And thou shalt do it with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers.

31And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.

32Behold, this is a great and the last commandment which I shall give unto you concerning this matter; for this shall suffice for thy daily walk, even unto the end of thy life.

Arguing tenets doesn't do much good with anti-Mormons. Simply invite them to believe and repent. If they scoff at that invitation, let them have the last word. (Remember that Alma and Amulek left Ammonihah behind them.) Just press on and keep doing good, bearing testimony. If they won't receive your testimony, they wouldn't receive it if it came from an apostle, an angel, or from the lips of Jesus himself. They are modern-day Pharisees. Their methods and motives are the same as those who opposed Christ anciently. Their fate will also be the same.

[imcurious]

Judo:

But it's true. Our Jesus is different from the common Jesus worshiped by other Christian denominations and it's just not me saying it.

The Living Christ - Ensign May 1977

And President Hinckley:

I think as members we get caught in thinking of the term Christian anyone who believes in Christ but I think we need to acknowledge (as our leaders) that the Jesus we worship isn't the same as other Christian denominations. I don't think that's even debatable at this point.

And that's where the thing gets trickier and trickier...The problem with Church history is that we had a bunch of Prophets and leaders who taught and spoke a lot of controversial stuff that were published in official (at that time) Church books such as the Journal of Discourses or magazines like the Millennial Star. Did they imply that Jesus was the product of natural action? Sure, they did. Did they say that Jesus was a polygamist? They surely did, including Brigham Young. Does the present day Church believes Brigham Young was sharing doctrine or sharing his opinion? I don't know. Did they ever retracted from these specific statements? No, as far as I know.

I didn't see the video, so I cannot comment on that but I did want to comment on those points. Thanks.

It seems to me that their are different beliefs within the LDS church. Some of the people within this forum seem to believe almost exactly what I believe as a non-denominational Chistian, but there are many things in the quote above that make our beliefs very different. Is it accurate to assume that some of these topics are not viewed by the LDS church as black and white, or are the people I am relating with more closely just not aware of the official stance of their church?

[imcurious]

"Our Jesus" doesn't condemn people to an Endless and Eternal Hell for having not heard of Him and His Gospel while they were here on earth.

"Our Jesus" doesn't save us "in" our sins.

"Our Jesus" expects more of us than blind and hollow worship to be seen of men.

"Our Jesus" doesn't allow His clergy to preach for money.

"Our Jesus" won't send US down to an Endless and Eternal Hell for the countless, but finite sins we commit - EVEN if we didn't believe in Him! (See D&C 20 & 76)

"Our Jesus" teaches that families are the foundation of society and that our family relationships can continue into the Eternities.

"Our Jesus" teaches us that there is a great work to continue doing throughout the eternities, and that we won't be sitting on a cloud plucking a harp every day.

Yep. I think we believe in a different Jesus. Because the Jesus that I often hear about from others who are not of the LDS faith, is vindictive and says "sorry, you didn't hear about me, so you'll spend the rest of your eternal life in hell, without your family."

Is this not the same type of bashing on the main-stream church that the guy on youtube did to the LDS church?

[HiJolly]

It seems to me that their are different beliefs within the LDS church. Some of the people within this forum seem to believe almost exactly what I believe as a non-denominational Chistian, but there are many things in the quote above that make our beliefs very different. Is it accurate to assume that some of these topics are not viewed by the LDS church as black and white, or are the people I am relating with more closely just not aware of the official stance of their church?

We are not a religion with a creed. Nor are we a religion of "the book". Therefore, we are free to believe pretty much what we want, within the bounds of "Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the world and our God".

Joseph Smith taught that what matters most is not so much what a person believes, but what a person does.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Is this not the same type of bashing on the main-stream church that the guy on youtube did to the LDS church?

I don't think I want to be the judge on that one.

HJ

[skippy740]

Is this not the same type of bashing on the main-stream church that the guy on youtube did to the LDS church?

No. This wasn't "bashing".

Why? Because of the intended audience (typically LDS-believing forum participators) and they are clarifying statements about the Jesus that WE believe in.

I wouldn't post this to "shove it in someone's face" in an "Anti" discussion. Don't "cast ye pearls before swine".

[HiJolly]

@skippy740--

Heh. Not sure that really helps... :-)

HJ

[prisonchaplain]

The frustration that LDS feel is that even though we feel that we have the "Restored Gospel" and are thus the "most true" version of Christianity, we are generally happy to share the title of Christian with any sincere followers of the Master. We'd just like the same courtesy extended to us.

It would only be a courtesy if it is honest. For example, if I am convinced that only Trinitarians are true Christians, and I say to you, "Oh well...I guess you are a Christian too," then I've not granted you a courtesy. I've lied to you, in order to keep the peace, or make you feel good for the moment. The irony is that you may indeed believe I am a Christian. But, if I believe that there is a doctrinal litmus test, and you do not pass it, then I cannot extend the same courtesy to you.

In other strings I have already shared my "agnosticism" on this issue. There has to be some common understanding about Christ's nature amongst Christians, but I do not have a definitive conclusion about what that minimum would be. For example, United Pentecostals agree with my theology almost completely--EXCEPT that they deny the Trinity. Are the condemned to hell? I cannot draw that conclusion.

So, I suppose the frustration will have to remain. For many Christians, the Trinity, as explained by Nicea, is a basic starting point. You may view them as "unrestored Christians," while they view you as heretics. It may not seem fair, but it is honest.

[MichaelPAGuy]

I deal with a co-worker who is anti-mormon. Everyday she mocks my religion, she says it is her job to save me from "the cult" and bring me to true christianity.

[Guest Sachi001]

I deal with a co-worker who is anti-Mormon. Everyday she mocks my religion, she says it is her job to save me from "the cult" and bring me to true Christianity.

Well if you really find it upsetting. You can consider talking to your boss and/or file harassment charges. Myself I would just ignore that individual and tell them to stick to work related conversation. You should not bring up religion and politics in the workplace no matter when and where.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Whether you want to engage this fellow further is up to you. I would suggest that saying anyone who believes in a Jesus is a Christian is too broad. After all, Jews believe Jesus to be a false prophet, but they generally agree he existed. Muslims give great honor to Jesus as one the prophets, but they would not even want the label Christian.

I agree with you in regard to this general statement, but please don't conflate that with saying anyone who believes Jesus is their Savior is a Christian. The atonement is what sets Christians apart from those who merely acknowledge His existence.

[bytebear]

It would only be a courtesy if it is honest. For example, if I am convinced that only Trinitarians are true Christians, and I say to you, "Oh well...I guess you are a Christian too," then I've not granted you a courtesy. I've lied to you, in order to keep the peace, or make you feel good for the moment. The irony is that you may indeed believe I am a Christian. But, if I believe that there is a doctrinal litmus test, and you do not pass it, then I cannot extend the same courtesy to you.

In other strings I have already shared my "agnosticism" on this issue. There has to be some common understanding about Christ's nature amongst Christians, but I do not have a definitive conclusion about what that minimum would be. For example, United Pentecostals agree with my theology almost completely--EXCEPT that they deny the Trinity. Are the condemned to hell? I cannot draw that conclusion.

So, I suppose the frustration will have to remain. For many Christians, the Trinity, as explained by Nicea, is a basic starting point. You may view them as "unrestored Christians," while they view you as heretics. It may not seem fair, but it is honest.

I think there is a difference in accepting one into the fold, and acknowledging ones belief in Jesus. For example, although I don't think a belief that the trinity belief one way or another defines a Christian (I think a correct understanding is a side effect of having proper authority), I do believe one must be baptized by one having authority. And I believe that authority lies only within the LDS Church. But, that does not preclude me from being courteous to those who believe that Jesus is divine. I accept their true heartfelt faith.

The problem with calling Mormons non-Christian, is that it implies that LDS do not have faith in Jesus Christ. This tactic was started specifically to muddy the water, to convince the ignorant that Mormons worshiped Joseph Smith, or thought of Jesus as a prophet or a great leader, but not the Messiah. With the advancement of the church and information about it, this tactic was revealed, and the strategy changed to a "different Jesus" and a distortion of Mormon belief about Jesus, the Godhead, etc.

[john doe]

I deal with a co-worker who is anti-mormon. Everyday she mocks my religion, she says it is her job to save me from "the cult" and bring me to true christianity.

First, tell her to stop doing it. If she doesn't stop, tell your HR rep or your boss. If the behavior continues you have grounds to sue the company.

[pam]

First, tell her to stop doing it. If she doesn't stop, tell your HR rep or your boss. If the behavior continues you have grounds to sue the company.

Exactly what we did at my job. Ex-Mo who was constantly pulling people aside who are LDS to show them the "error of their ways." Enough people complained and he's gone.

[prisonchaplain]

I deal with a co-worker who is anti-mormon. Everyday she mocks my religion, she says it is her job to save me from "the cult" and bring me to true christianity.

I hate reading this. Perhaps you should ask her if there is any biblical example of someone being mocked into the kingdom of God?

[prisonchaplain]

I think there is a difference in accepting one into the fold, and acknowledging ones belief in Jesus. For example, although I don't think a belief that the trinity belief one way or another defines a Christian (I think a correct understanding is a side effect of having proper authority), I do believe one must be baptized by one having authority. And I believe that authority lies only within the LDS Church. But, that does not preclude me from being courteous to those who believe that Jesus is divine. I accept their true heartfelt faith.

The problem with calling Mormons non-Christian, is that it implies that LDS do not have faith in Jesus Christ. This tactic was started specifically to muddy the water, to convince the ignorant that Mormons worshiped Joseph Smith, or thought of Jesus as a prophet or a great leader, but not the Messiah. With the advancement of the church and information about it, this tactic was revealed, and the strategy changed to a "different Jesus" and a distortion of Mormon belief about Jesus, the Godhead, etc.

These are great points all. Probably a more useful discussion is what is heresy? Such a line would bring a whole lot more discussion, but would avoid any ultimate condemnations.

Consider this, how much heresy does it take to put one's salvation at risk? The answer might well be "Any amount." Okay, now we can discuss the doctrine of the day. On the other hand, if I say, "Your heresies are too grievious--you cannot possibly be a real Christian!" Well...the discussion is pretty much over, isn't it?

Thank you...this is a great approach.

[Echo2002]

Elder(?) Huntsman came to Nashville a couple of years ago and spoke to the Singles. I don't remember word for word what he said but what I got out of part of his talk was that we are NOT Christians in the sense that we do not believe in the Trinity nor do we follow the Nicene Creed and that we should start distinguishing ourselves as being members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Yes, we do believe in Jesus Christ and that He Atoned for our sins, but there are a lot of significant differences between our Gospel Doctrines and the doctrines of the Christian church.

Somehow we think it is shameful not to call ourselves Christians, but if you really look at the doctrines, I don't see how we can consider ourselves just another Christian denomination.

[ChooseTheSun]

Speaking of anti-mormon, today I tried to register in a Baptist internet forum, much like this one, so I could lurk and read other points of view. Registration was described as available to "all Christian denominations." However, my registration got rejected outright on the basis that the forum was for "Christians only" (I registered as LDS). Sad.