Warren Jeffs found guilty

[skippy740]

One of the "fruits" to look for in religious leaders is in how well they follow the laws of the land and to be good examples for others to follow.

The FLDS has broken many laws of the land - including underage "marriage" and (I'm pretty sure) tax &/or welfare fraud.

Their people live in compounds - isolated from the rest of the world. They really don't want to mingle with others. Not exactly an example for a church that should have a desire to grow its membership.

Have any of the LDS leaders ever broken the current laws of the land? You might wonder if Joseph Smith had wives under the age of 18. I don't know, but was it against the law at the time? I don't think it was. (I could be wrong.)

I find it interesting that all of God's latter-day commandments all coincide with the laws of the land. If/when the laws of the land CHANGE (such as with polygamous marriages), then the Saints follow the Prophet to know what they should do.

[mightynancy]

isolated from the rest of the world. They really don't want to mingle with others. Not exactly an example for a church that should have a desire to grow its membership.

1847 anyone? I think Jeffs is an evil man. That said, I see what SS is saying. Throwing up our hands and wondering how those deluded people could follow that man is little different from how people wonder about us LDS. We give a great deal of money to an organization that will not open its books even to its donors. Some of you will disagree, but many of our leaders have been flawed (not to the degree of raping little girls, but flawed nonetheless). Early on, people left everything they had, risking death of themselves and loved ones, to follow a man into the wilderness. Whether the trust in these leaders is misplaced or not is irrelevant.

I think SS is just pointing out a flawed argument, not justifying anything done by the FLDS.

[NeuroTypical]

Have any of the LDS leaders ever broken the current laws of the land?

Yes - General Authority and member of the First Quorum of the Seventy George P. Lee molested a 12 year old girl back in 1989. The charges/trial/verdict/admission/etc didn't surface until 1993/94, but he had been excommunicated for a while by then. He was the first GA to be excommunicated since 1943.

A Stake President back around 10 years ago was convicted of enticing a minor over the internet. He got on a plane and flew into another state with a box of slinky lingire, only to get arrested by the cops who were posing as his 16 yr old girl victim.

Once or twice every decade, a bishop or two get in trouble for stuff like that.

So yeah, we fallen humans can remain human even if we become a church leader.

[skippy740]

Okay, fair enough.

Let's rephrase the rhetorical question:

Have any LDS General Authorities ever broken the law for the sake of the gospel and led the membership of the church to do likewise?

[NeuroTypical]

Not since polygamy that I know of. And those were interesting times - "the law" was rapidly changing on the state/territory and federal level based on voting blocs and whatnot. I read someone making a pretty good case that the whole woman's sufferage movement had it's practical roots in Utah - because the pro-polygamy and anti-polygamy forces both thought the female vote would break the tie and put their legislation into law. Temples seized, the 1st presidency and 12 apostles in hiding, good times.

Does that Chuck-A-Rama in Salt Lake City still have the huge photograph in their waiting area of all the LDS polygamists the federales could round up, posing in their black-and-white prison uniforms?

Anyway, I think I understand SS's overall point about faith and following. Similar to the Hebrews wandering the desert with Moses - it took massive faith. Just as long as we're clear about the difference between consentual polygamy and what Jeffs did.

[Soulsearcher]

Not since polygamy that I know of. And those were interesting times - "the law" was rapidly changing on the state/territory and federal level based on voting blocs and whatnot. I read someone making a pretty good case that the whole woman's sufferage movement had it's practical roots in Utah - because the pro-polygamy and anti-polygamy forces both thought the female vote would break the tie and put their legislation into law. Temples seized, the 1st presidency and 12 apostles in hiding, good times.

Does that Chuck-A-Rama in Salt Lake City still have the huge photograph in their waiting area of all the LDS polygamists the federales could round up, posing in their black-and-white prison uniforms?

Anyway, I think I understand SS's overall point about faith and following. Similar to the Hebrews wandering the desert with Moses - it took massive faith. Just as long as we're clear about the difference between consentual polygamy and what Jeffs did.

If it makes it any clearer i never intended to bring up polygamy at all, just ended up in my direction. With me it was more confusion on people of faith disparaging other people of faith. questions like how can they follow that guy and why is their church still there just seems a little out of place when asked by LDS who are asked the same questions daily and feel a lil put off by it.

[slamjet]

If it makes it any clearer i never intended to bring up polygamy at all, just ended up in my direction. With me it was more confusion on people of faith disparaging other people of faith. questions like how can they follow that guy and why is their church still there just seems a little out of place when asked by LDS who are asked the same questions daily and feel a lil put off by it.

I get what you're saying, but I stand by the thought that "by their fruits ye shall know them." And his, and the whole organizations "fruits" are really bad. I'm not in agreement with the Catholic church on many things. However, I would never disparage anyone who follows their beliefs because the "fruits" of that church are good. They teach their members to be moral, productive people and to not abuse those who are helpless. They have their moments, and they have their issues, but for the most part, they teach their flock to be uplifting people to society as well as to individuals who are less fortunate.

This FLDS church teach polygamy, which goes against the law of the land, as well as polygamy with minors. They have a leader who espouse and practices this. These are bad, bad fruits and there is no way I can say anything supportive of this group of people. Just as I cannot say anything supportive of the Branch Davidians or any other group that has that type of abuse as either their core, or ancillary beliefs.

I reserve the right to judge for myself whether a person or a group is good or bad by what they produce. To me, that's called wisdom. On the same vein, I do not have the right to judge their standing in the here-after because that has not been given to me (and thankfully so).

[pam]

Update: He's been sentenced to life in prison.

ksl.com - Jeffs sentenced to life in prison

[Guest]

Thank goodness. Now I wonder what happens with the girls. It's probably a far-out wish, but I hope they get some kind of help and counseling.

[Just_A_Guy]

Err . . . then, don't go to the Mount Timpanogos temple. I have personally seen a bed in that temple as well.

I don't know that the trial transcripts have been released, and until they are then it's difficult to verify 1) that the FLDS actually have some sort of sex rite, and 2) that any such rite was actually solemnized inside their temple.

Sachi, having finally retched my way through a couple of transcripts and seen some photos, may I offer you my apology and acknowledgement that you were correct?

Ugh.

(I think I need to go take a shower in bleach now.)

[Guest mormonmusic]

Brian Mitchell and Warren Jeffs seem to have something in common. Using the concept of plural marriage to satisfy pedophilic tendencies under the banner of religion.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Brian Mitchell and Warren Jeffs seem to have something in common. Using the concept of plural marriage to satisfy pedophilic tendencies under the banner of religion.

I agree with this. It's far more common than people realize. When MSNBC ran their "To Catch A Predator" series with Chris Hansen, they set up sting operations that attracted men for miles around to line up for sex with (what they think was) a 13 year old girl they were chatting up on the internet. And we're talking about men including law enforcement, teachers, youth leaders, and even parents with children the same age as the girl they wanted to have sex with. At least these men knew they were doing wrong. But to cloak child sexual abuse under the guise of religious sanctity is sickening. Such a person is taking a very sick act and trying to convince himself and others that it's right.