Packing heat at church

[Wheats]

I've had my handgun carry permit for several years now and carry almost everywhere I go, including church on Sundays. It's not something I announce to the members, my wife doesn't even always know when I carry. Just curious as to your thoughts. Do you carry to church? Any reaction from other members?

[Backroads]

I know of a few people who do. I have memories of a primary teacher who was a cop and had to come to church in uniform. She always brought her gun. It was so cool.

[Vort]

Seems like the leadership has explicitly asked the members not to bring firearms to Church. I seem to remember such being read over the pulpit some years ago. Don't have a reference.

[MarginOfError]

Selected Church Policies 

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.

[FunkyTown]

No Firearms in Latter-day Saint Houses of Worship - LDS Newsroom

[Wheats]

Glad I'm not in utah. Carry is permitted in places of worship unless propper signage is posted saying otherwise

[MarginOfError]

Glad I'm not in utah. Carry is permitted in places of worship unless propper signage is posted saying otherwise

That wouldn't apply to the statement I posted, which is in the Church Handbook of Instructions and applies to the church across the world. In fact, such has been the policy even before the Church made public notice that it did not want weapons, concealed or unconcealed, in their buildings.

[HiJolly]

I support level-headed responsible citizens carrying in Church.

HJ

[FunkyTown]

I support level-headed responsible citizens carrying in Church.

HJ

For all those times that the King of England gets in your face during Sacrament.

[Guest mysticmorini]

For all those times that the King of England gets in your face during Sacrament.

Heck yeah, we won’t have any loyalty to that crazy despot. Unlike those crazy Canadians

[Wheats]

Dont know about any king, but how about the guy who robbed our copy repair man at gunpoint at church? Or the bishop killed in his office not long ago?

[Soulsearcher]

Dont know about any king, but how about the guy who robbed our copy repair man at gunpoint at church? Or the bishop killed in his office not long ago?

LOL or the guy who carries a gun to church against the wishes of the leadership he's supposed to sustain or do we think that the handbook ect doesn't come from anyplace important and doesn't apply to certain individuals. Which other policies shouldn't apply to general membership? I kinda like the idea of pick and choose.

[Gwen]

you could go to this church.... no one would find it odd in the least Minister of Music tazes pastor, another woman stabbed during fight at church (update) | al.com

[Wheats]

Guess you got me on that one, but I was responding to the notion that its silly to carry at church because nothing bad happens there. I'll just file this in the dont ask dont tell section

[Soulsearcher]

Guess you got me on that one, but I was responding to the notion that its silly to carry at church because nothing bad happens there. I'll just file this in the dont ask dont tell section

So as long as we don't tell anyone we are going against leadership we are ok? YAHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! K everyone we just got permission to go against all the leaders in the church as long as we keep it hushed. Talk about a landmark day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MarginOfError]

Dont know about any king, but how about the guy who robbed our copy repair man at gunpoint at church?

The guy who robbed your copy repairman was violating church policy by bringing a weapon into the building.

Now, removing my tongue from my cheek:

Having just written the meetinghouse security plan for my ward, I can't tell you how many times I've read the phrase "give up your property, not your life." Pulling a gun on an armed assailant greatly increases the odds that the assailant will actually use his weapon.

Statistically, it is far more likely that the assailant will be apprehended without violence if the property is turned over and the police called immediately.

Or the bishop killed in his office not long ago?

In this instance, the person wielding the weapon was going to inflict harm anyway. He intended to go and inflict harm. Having pulled a gun on him would have ended in more bloodshed and violence.

Contrary to the beliefs of many, pulling out weapons doesn't solve problems. Very often, it creates more than it solves.

But I think it's folly to extrapolate extreme data points in the way you do. Essentially you're saying that because there were two incidents of violence in 468,000,000 church hours in one year that we should start carrying weapons to church to defend ourselves. When you look at the data in its entirety, you sound a bit ridiculous.

I will say this, however: in cases where an individual has reason to believe that someone may have interest in harming him, I think it is reasonable for a bishop to authorize the individual to carry his weapon. There is a member of the forum in such a situation, and I think it'd be these situations that warrant an exception.

[MarginOfError]

I support level-headed responsible citizens carrying in Church.

HJ

But does someone who can't stand the thought of putting their gun down for three hours qualify as level-headed and responsible?

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Wheats!

Welcome to the board! You have raised an issue that gets discussed quite a bit and quite zealously in circles of conceal-carry permit holding Saints. Rest assured that your take on the issue is very well represented in such circles, but so is the other side of the issue.

People, as we discuss the issue, lets keep a few site rules in mind:

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post.

There are at least two polarized sides on this issue - let's civilly advocate for our reasoning, and keep our judgements and condemnations out of it.

LM

p.s. I used to carry at church, but changed my mind a few years ago and don't anymore.

[Soulsearcher]

But does someone who can't stand the thought of putting their gun down for three hours qualify as level-headed and responsible?

[bytor2112]

Should lethal weapons include knives as well? Where I live many brethren have a knife visibly clipped to their back pockets.

[Wheats]

Thanks LM, this has struck quite a nerve, hasn't it?

For the record, in all my years of driving, no accidents. Statistically speaking, I should get rid of my seatbelt. never had a flat, bye bye spare tire. No use in keeping my food storage, havent needed it.

[MarginOfError]

Should lethal weapons include knives as well? Where I live many brethren have a knife visibly clipped to their back pockets.

I'd say that depends on the knife. I'd probably look at you funny if you suggested my swiss army knife is a lethal weapon. Sure, I suppose it could be, but wielding it like a weapon isn't the easiest or most practical thing ever.

A buck knife, on the other hand, I'd suggest not be worn to church.

[bytor2112]

I'd say that depends on the knife. I'd probably look at you funny if you suggested my swiss army knife is a lethal weapon. Sure, I suppose it could be, but wielding it like a weapon isn't the easiest or most practical thing ever.

A buck knife, on the other hand, I'd suggest not be worn to church.

They are at least 3 inch folding knives......and with violent intent could be very lethal. But, so can a car in the parking lot waiting to run over some unsuspecting Saints.

[Vort]

Thanks LM, this has struck quite a nerve, hasn't it?

For the record, in all my years of driving, no accidents. Statistically speaking, I should get rid of my seatbelt. never had a flat, bye bye spare tire. No use in keeping my food storage, havent needed it.

Wearing a seat belt, carrying a spare tire, and keeping food storage do not put anyone else in danger in any sense.

In addition, our leaders have not explicitly asked us to avoid wearing seat belts, stop carrying spare tires for our cars, or quit storing food.

[MarginOfError]

Thanks LM, this has struck quite a nerve, hasn't it?

For the record, in all my years of driving, no accidents. Statistically speaking, I should get rid of my seatbelt. never had a flat, bye bye spare tire. No use in keeping my food storage, havent needed it.

Again, you're relying on flawed statistical interpretations.

Wearing your seat belt won't prevent you from having an accident, but it will reduce the bodily injury associated with most accidents when they do occur.

Having a spare tire won't prevent your tires for puncturing, but you are typically better off being able to use a spare tire than wait for one to be delivered (as a function of safety, cost, etc).

I would agree with your point if pulling a gun was likely to reduce the probability of violence in the case that a robbery or assault takes place. However, pulling a gun increases the probability of violence. That is, using the weapon in the rare situation is likely to create more harm, as opposed to the seat belt which is likely to create less harm.

Speaking conceptually, the flaw in your argument is that you are trying to make comparisons based on the probability of event A (accident or assault) occurring when event A should be the sample space on which you evaluate event B (injury or violence).