Eowyn's bumpersticker response

[madeleine1]

I have always viewed it as Jesus lifted us all up to the top, that is the whole reason for His Death. He is there to catch us when we fall.

Works, being not a thing to do to get to the top, but a fruit of the grace that has been given to us. God, showing His Love for us, His Love overflows to others, and so we are the Face of God to those in need.

Peace.

[skalenfehl]

Outer darkness, aka perdition is reserved only for those who have received testimony of Christ (Cain, for example), and rejecting it, forfeit any inheritance of glory/kingdom.

PC, there is a small book you can buy at Deseret Bookstore called

Believing Christ: A Practical Approach to the Atonement - Stephen E. Robinson

You can also read an excerpt in the above link. This book is an amazingly wonderful and easy to read and follow piece of literature. The author explains the difference between believing in Christ, which most LDS members do, and actually believing Christ--that He can do what He says, which many LDS seem not to do (although they think they do). There's a wonderful parable called "The Parable of the Bicycle", which explains very simply how His atonement works.

I sum it up this way--we ALL fall short of his glory/kingdom. We can never earn salvation. But if we do our very best to obey His commandments and follow His teachings, no matter how short we fall from our reach to Him and His kingdom, because of His infinite atonement He can and will bridge the gap to bring us the rest of the way home. It really is as simple as that. To reiterate, of ourselves, we can never make it on our own. It is His atonement and his sacrifice that makes Him our "purchaser". He will judge us according to our works according to our desires. He, as our mediator with the Father, will decide whether or not He wants to keep us and (which is why) He will be our only judge. For it was His sacrifice which made our salvation possible.

Edited August 27, 2011 by skalenfehl

[RipplecutBuddha]

A member of the Relief Society General Presidency gave a talk years ago in General Conference that pertains to this. Her main point made me all but sit up and stare because I hadn't thought about the issue in the terms she used. Here's a paraphrase;

Jesus is not our last chance, our last hope, or our last opportunity.

Jesus is our only chance. Ever. There never was another way, another method, or another path back to Heavenly Father.

[rameumptom]

Prison Chaplain,

In the 1970s and earlier, the Church had a knee jerk reaction towards the concept of saved by grace, wherein it meant one could be a huge sinner and still be saved. The term "grace" almost dropped out of LDS terminology. A refocus on the Book of Mormon by Pres Benson in the 1980s helped members again talk of grace in its proper form.

Terminology is another problem. As we can see in the discussion above about baptism and being saved, for instance. For LDS the term "saved" can mean two things: saved from hell, or exalted. For Vort's answer, he is referring to exaltation as being saved.

In reality, D&C 76 tells us that Telestial people are saved, and they do not require baptism. They only need exercise and repent.

And herein lies the difference for us. We are saved from hell and damnation through faith and grace. And then, through grace and obedience we can gain a greater reward in the heavens. Some traditional Christians also believe this, although they would not separate the levels of reward or glory into levels of heaven.

This is one of the reasons why I no longer use the 1970s LDS definition of salvation, where it seems one must earn his wings. We cannot. I use a traditional definition and then expand it to include LDS enhancements, so that there is true understanding.

We are saved by grace through no works of our own. Jesus provides us with a free resurrection. Jesus provides us with salvation from hell and brimstone through faith and repentance. Nothing else is required.

Then, if we desire greater reward in heaven, or a higher level of heaven, we must learn to love Christ and reflect His will. The greater our faith, the more we will naturally want to follow him. As PC noted, it is a chicken/egg issue. Some think that obedience comes before faith, while others see obedience as a natural outcome of faith. D&C 93 tells us that Christ went from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace, and we must do the same thing. As we naturally become more holy, we naturally receive more of the Spirit of God into our lives, become more holy and ready to receive a higher reward.

[prisonchaplain]

If I am reading you right, Ram, entry into the Telestial Kingdom requires repentence. So, everyone that enters a heavenly kingdom must call upon Jesus? The difference with evangelicals, then, is that you believe this can happen after death?

The above dispels a common understanding amongst non-LDS that your church teaches a near-universalism, wherein non-believers can enter the lower heavens without faith in Christ (assuming I'm understanding right).

[Guest]

Every time I see the title to this thread I jump a little, like I'm being called out or I'm in trouble or something. It's not even my real name!

[applepansy]

Every time I see the title to this thread I jump a little, like I'm being called out or I'm in trouble or something. It's not even my real name!

I think your bumper sticker response started a great discussion. :)

[Guest gopecon]

Since only Christ can judge a person's heart I don't worry about this too much. I know my son heard the gospel after he died. I know he was in the temple when we did the work for him.

Having that spiritual confirmation after knowing all the things he did in this life even having been taught the gospel tells me that we as humans cannot every judge who has really "heard" the message here in this life.

ApplePansy: I hope I wasn't misunderstood. I agree with you - I don't know what constitutes a real chance. I'm grateful for a just and loving God who will not unfairly **** anyone who has not had that chance in this life or the next. I probably spoke with thousands of people on my mission. Its not my call, but I doubt that very many of those (maybe none) who were not baptized will be condemned for not accepting the message I was trying to share.

[rameumptom]

If I am reading you right, Ram, entry into the Telestial Kingdom requires repentence. So, everyone that enters a heavenly kingdom must call upon Jesus? The difference with evangelicals, then, is that you believe this can happen after death?

The above dispels a common understanding amongst non-LDS that your church teaches a near-universalism, wherein non-believers can enter the lower heavens without faith in Christ (assuming I'm understanding right).

They must exercise faith and repent. This must occur either here or in the Spirit World. Those who refuse to repent will be Sons of Perdition, and cast out into Outer Darkness. The Spirit World has a hell as part of Spirit Prison. Those who have not repented of sins, must repent of them and call on Christ, or they cannot be saved. Alma 36 gives us a good idea of an individual in this shape, as I believe Alma was going through a Near Death Experience in Spirit prison hell, until he repented.

It is a near universal salvation, because most will gladly repent and believe in Christ, in exchange for salvation from death and hell. Given that the gospel is also preached there (1 Peter 3:18-22, 4:6), many will accept more of the gospel than just enough to be rescued from hell. Many will embrace much more, as they have lived good lives and instinctively obeyed many of God's laws without ever having heard the Good News. And in so doing, many of them will receive greater glories than the Telestial.

[prisonchaplain]

At this point we may not agree about the afterlife and 2nd chances, but we agree that Christ is necessary to enter ANY heavenly realm--that is huge, in my book.

[rameumptom]

PC, for many, it isn't a second chance. For them, it is a First Chance to hear about Jesus Christ. This is one of the key things that attracts me to the LDS message. Some poor cannibal in South America, some poor Norseman from 100 BC, some poor 2nd century Mongol, some poor 20th century Chinese, or billions of others who have never had the chance to hear the good news of Jesus Christ in any form of Christianity, and then to receive the higher revelations restored in the Last Days.

[Madriglace]

JMHO .... several years back while studying to teach a lesson the lights finally came on ... I realized that the atonement was about one person ... me. The pain, the drops of blood, the anguish were because of me. The Savior atoned for my sins and through His grace for me I was saved ... then having realized my part in His suffering it was up to me to do something about it. How could I as as a child of a loving Heavenly Father accept a gift like that and not make a HUGE effort of show my gratitude. So for me ... while I am saved by grace it is up to me to follow in His foot steps with a whole heart to make that sacrifice for me to not have been in vain. The harder I work to follow Him the better I become .. the more I put on the whole armour of God and draw closer to Him. Consider it a pay it forward situation ... Heavenly Father loved us so He sent His son who loved us so He atoned for us so we loving him in turn love our brothers and sisters as we have been loved. Makes a whole lot of sense to me. But then I tend to have a very simplistic view of the gospel.

[RescueMom]

The way I see the Grace of the Atonement is like this. Take all the ordinances we do, temple, baptism, ect., do all of them, repeatedly and do them well, but they all mean nothing, not one dang thing, without the Atonement. The entire Plan of Salvation means nothing, can't be done, all that Joseph Smith did, all the Prophets and Apostles (old and new) mean diddly squat without the Atonement. There is no Book of Mormon or Bible, or any of the ordinances without the Atonement. Nothing.

The Pharisees were amazingly good at keeping the works, did them with such vigor that they completely missed Christ when he was in their presents, they were so caught up in doing the works the condemned him.

I think the diffrence between being truly converted to Christ and just being a member of the church is the acceptance and knowledge of the Atonement and it's completeness of everything, that everything relies on it alone. everything.

[prisonchaplain]

I wonder if one reason for high rates of inactivity all all Christian churches is that some people are "converted" to the church, but not to Christ and his atonement?

[applepansy]

I wonder if one reason for high rates of inactivity all all Christian churches is that some people are "converted" to the church, but not to Christ and his atonement?

I think that so.

[skalenfehl]

They must exercise faith and repent. This must occur either here or in the Spirit World. Those who refuse to repent will be Sons of Perdition, and cast out into Outer Darkness. The Spirit World has a hell as part of Spirit Prison. Those who have not repented of sins, must repent of them and call on Christ, or they cannot be saved. Alma 36 gives us a good idea of an individual in this shape, as I believe Alma was going through a Near Death Experience in Spirit prison hell, until he repented.

Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual - Chapter 33 - Kingdoms of Glory and Perdition

H. The scriptures explain who the sons of perdition are and what their fate will be.

1. Satan and the one-third of the hosts of heaven who followed him became sons of perdition (see D&C 76:25–30 ; 29:36–38 ; Revelation 12:7–9 ; 2 Peter 2:4 ; Jude 1:6 ).

2. Those who in mortality have known the power of God, been made partakers of it, and then later denied the truth and defied God’s power will also be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:31–32 ).

3. Those who deny the Holy Ghost after having received it and crucify the Savior unto themselves will have no forgiveness and will be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:34–36 ; Matthew 12:31–32 ).

4. Sons of perdition will suffer the wrath of God and partake of the second death (see D&C 76:33, 37–38 ).

5. Those who become sons of perdition in mortality will be resurrected but will not be redeemed in a kingdom of glory (see D&C 76:38–39, 43–44 ; 88:24, 32 ).

6. Only those who become sons of perdition will be able to comprehend the magnitude of the misery of those who inherit such a state (see D&C 76:44–48 ).

[estradling75]

This would be similar to an Evangelical trying to attain the greatest rewards, the most wonderful crown of righteousness, etc. I think of those missionaries who respond to callings to go to persecuted lands, as an example.

Prisonchaplain... This is the first time I have ever heard a evangelical talk about any thing beyond being saved... Must less something that requires effort. (Admittedly I don't talk to many evangelicals) Can you expand on the evangelical's understanding of the crown of righteousness?

I know we have some serious differences like Trinity/Godhead, but I am wondering if much more of our differences are more because of a difference in focus and terminology.

[prisonchaplain]

Our teaching on the crown of righteousness is usually vague, because we also do not want to encourage pride. Probably the most moving description I have heard is the idea that the crowns we earn will then by our honor to lay at the feet of Jesus. Whether a large, richly bejeweled one, or one with the works "as of a mustard seed," considering we made it to heaven, we will all hear, "Well done good and faithful servant..."

So, our desire ought to be to prepare the best gift possible for our Master, by doing the good and difficult work of a disciple.