Eowyn's bumpersticker response

[prisonchaplain]

Eowyn made a post in another string that seems worthy of its own. Here is her quote...

This is what has always made me feel like we actually agree on this point, it's just that the semantics are different. I live in a heavily-LDS-populated area. This week I was driving behind a van whose bumper sticker said, "If you can earn it, why did He die?" I'm sure it was directed at Mormons. I wanted to tell him, we can't earn it, and we have never believed that we can. But we do adhere to His charge to follow Him, and keep His commandments. Not because we can earn it, but because since we have accepted Him as our Savior, we seek to do as He taught.

Maybe this is another topic altogether, but there is a continuum of reasons to obey, ranging from fear of punishment to love of our God and Savior. I hope that most Latter-day Saints aren't keeping the commandments just to be able to hold a temple recommend, but that worthiness to enter the temple is a side effect of showing our love and devotion by obedience to Jesus and Heavenly Father.

Now bumperstickers are notoriously oversimplified. Nevertheless, this is a valid question. The particular teaching being addressed is probably the idea that many LDS will not say they ARE saved, because this cannot be known until one has "endured to the end." This gives the impression that one earns salvation by enduring. It's a chicken or egg argument. I would say I endured BECAUSE of my salvation. Still, it goes to motivation. Is there a sense in which the LDS teaching does have believers earning at least a smidgeon of their salvation?

[beefche]

Absolutely, PC. Too many Mormons focus on the works section and I suspect it's partly due to a scripture in the BoM "we are saved by grace, after all we can do." To our modern minds that sounds like we gotta work HARD, then He saves us. But, I believe that it means something different.

Plus, there is a whole culture of being self-reliant (and I do believe that comes from God). Unfortunately, some members take it to the extreme in thinking they must be "perfect" before God will save them.

There is a book called "Believing Christ" that is really good. It explains the difference in believing in Christ and believing Christ. Too many believe that God is a God of miracles, but not for me....I'm too sinful, don't work hard enough, am good enough, etc. for God to save me. The book helps to explain that by thinking such, we are denying Christ and His atonement and His ability to actually save sinners like us.

[Sali]

The Atonement takes care of the bits we can't do for ourselves. I don't think the fact that Christ died gives us free reign just to believe in him and then sit back and do nothing. It's impossible for us to be perfect, but we try our hardest and what we fall short on will be taken care of by the Atonement.

[Guest]

Thanks, pc! This is a conversation I've always wanted to have.

I think that there is an erroneous belief in Mormon culture, not doctrine, that there's a certain amount we can do and then He makes up the rest. I always saw it as trying to climb a too-short ladder out of a too-deep hole, and when we get to the top of that ladder, Jesus will reach down and take us the rest of the way. Maybe I saw that drawn somewhere. Anyway, I went through a time of desperation when I thought there's no way I can ever reach the top of that ladder. I am too flawed, too weak, all of that. What I didn't consider is our Savior's power to reach down as far as He needs to to bring me out of that hole. I heard something recently- someone please tell me they have a citation because I don't, and I love it- that went something like this: He doesn't make up the rest of the difference, He makes ALL the difference.

In other words, no amount of anything we ever can or will do will get us Home. We are totally, completely reliant on Jesus Christ's Atonement to get us there.

My little ladder is irrelevant. Whether I climb all the rungs or one or none at all, what matters is that I am trying to climb. I'm looking up and seeking to be closer. The effort of climbing is changing me, and making me stronger; not so that I deserve to be in His presence, because I will never, ever be deserving except through His grace. But if I am not trying to follow His path, learn of Him, and become as His child, how will I be comfortable in His rest? We are taught that the same spirit that possesses us in this life will possess us in the world to come. We will enter the next life as the people we are when we leave this one.

I don't think it's so much where I get as who I become in the process, so that when the time comes, I will know His voice as my shepherd, and being with Him will feel like home. If I am living a life totally incongruous with His, will I even find rest in His glory?

[Guest]

Ah! I found where I heard it! It was Brad Wilcox. He gave a version of this talk for Time Out for Women and I just loved it. It's worth the read:

Christ’s grace makes all the difference, devotional speaker says

Here's an exerpt:

“Jesus doesn’t make up the difference, Jesus makes all the difference,” Wilcox said. “Grace is not about filling gaps, it is about filling us.”

Wilcox helped this particular student by drawing two dots on a piece of paper, one representing her and the other representing Christ. He then proceeded to have her draw a line representing how much we do and how much Christ does for us to be saved. She drew a line like he instructed, but then explained there is actually no line.

“Jesus filled the whole space, he paid our debt in full,” Wilcox said. “He didn’t pay it all except for a few coins. He paid it all. It’s finished.”

Wilcox explained why Christ requires works from us.

“Christ asks us to show faith in him, repent, make and keep covenants, receive the Holy Ghost and endure to the end,” Wilcox said. “By complying we are not paying the demands of justice, not even the smallest part. Instead, we are showing appreciation for what Christ did by using it to live a life like his.”

[Dravin]

Absolutely, PC. Too many Mormons focus on the works section and I suspect it's partly due to a scripture in the BoM "we are saved by grace, after all we can do." To our modern minds that sounds like we gotta work HARD, then He saves us. But, I believe that it means something different.

Part of it is that in our efforts to explain how our doctrine is different that others, we all accept the necessity of grace after all, the differences get exaggerated until we end up with:

Mormon: Work! Work! Work!

Mainstream Christian: Grace! Grace! Grace!

Really the debate is not so much grace versus works, though it is clearly framed using such language, but over what exactly it means to accept Christ. In the effort to respond to the idea (accurate or inaccurate depending on exactly who you are talking too) that all one has to do to accept Christ is say "I accept Jesus!" Mormons lean heavily on the necessity to follow, to do our mortal best to obey Christ's commandments are part of accepting him. And on the flip side mainstream Christians in an effort to respond to the idea (accurate or inaccurate depending on exactly who you are talking too) that grace is almost a rubber stamp to works lean heavily on the fact that grace is the saving power. The end result (for either side) is a skewed concept of the gospel if one is not careful.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Dravin

[prisonchaplain]

Using the latter analogy, would this be fair:

LDS: Jesus reaches down to us wherever we have made it on the ladder

Evangelical: Jesus lifts us up to the bottom rung of the ladder, and his Spirit helps us on the climb

[Guest]

Again, I argue that it's semantics because I think we're saying the same thing.

[applepansy]

Absolutely not. We can't earn one little bit of our salvation.

There is a great talk by John Bytheway which I can't reference here except to say you can get it on CD at Deseret Book. Its called "Jesus Knows I'm a Christian." After a conversation with a preacher from an evangelical church he searched for the scriptures relating to "merit."

Here they are:

Helaman 14:13

And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits.

Alma 24:10

And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.

Moroni 6:4

And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.

Doctrine and Covenants 3:20

And that the Lamanites might come to the knowledge of their fathers, and that they might know the promises of the Lord, and that they may believe the gospel and rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ, and be glorified through faith in his name, and that through their repentance they might be saved. Amen.

2 Nephi 31:19

And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

Alma 22:14

And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

2 Nephi 2:8

Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

All these scriptures are pretty clear. We are only saved through the merits of Christ.

Another reference that I can link here is: Have You Been Saved? by Elder Oaks.

PC, Elder Oaks talk will answer your question.

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps part of the difficulty is in defining what it means for Christ to save us by grace. In Evangelical teaching there is but one heaven and one hell. Jesus us saves us from hell. We obtain this salvation through formulas like the following: ADMIT I am a sinner, BELIEVE in Jesus, CONFESS my sins. Some would add that the outcome must be that I engage in DISCIPLESHIP. Once I have sincerely done the first three and begun the fourth, I can confidently say "I am saved."

As I understand LDS teaching, Jesus has saved just about everyone from hell, by his atonement--even many who do not ADMIT, BELIEVE, or CONFESS will find themselves in the telestial, or even terrestial kingdoms. I admit to be unsure if what is required as a response to the gospel in the afterlife...perhaps the ABC is necessary at that point. Most here, though, have led me to believe hell will be a very small place.

And so, it is the Celestial Kingdom that requires a good deal of effort to enter. This would be similar to an Evangelical trying to attain the greatest rewards, the most wonderful crown of righteousness, etc. I think of those missionaries who respond to callings to go to persecuted lands, as an example.

There is a good deal of overlap, but our understanding of the Plan of Salvation also sometimes makes it hard to translate these similarities.

BTW--I just scanned through Elder Oakes homily, and will give it further study. He seems to agree with me that a fair amount of "translation" between our doctrines and ways of going about our faith is necessary. For example, he says LDS do think of salvation mostly as a FUTURE culmination, whereas Evangelicals mostly see it as already accomplished. Thanks for the reference.

Edited August 26, 2011 by prisonchaplain

[applepansy]

Using the latter analogy, would this be fair:

LDS: Jesus reaches down to us wherever we have made it on the ladder

Evangelical: Jesus lifts us up to the bottom rung of the ladder, and his Spirit helps us on the climb

I don't think so. I've been taught all my life that Jesus reaches down to us from the very beginning. We climb the ladder in an effort to do out best to follow Him and He helps us along the way. Belief in Christ and Believing Christ saves us. Works are what we do to show our commitment to Him and our covenants.

LDS & Evangelical: Jesus lifts us up to the bottom rung of the ladder, and He helps us on the climb.

Unfortunately, there are LDS members who don't have a clear understanding or the grace & works doctrine. Note: not grace Versus works...grace AND works.

[prisonchaplain]

How about Grace THEN works, which should lead to grace-filled works. :-)

The irony here is that, as a minister, I love both grace and works. I am so thankful for the grace of God our Father, through his Son, Jesus Christ. My heart rejoices when God's people are busy about the WORK of the gospel too!

Edited August 26, 2011 by prisonchaplain

[applepansy]

Perhaps part of the difficulty is in defining what it means for Christ to save us by grace. In Evangelical teaching there is but one heaven and one hell. Jesus us saves us from hell. We obtain this salvation through formulas like the following: ADMIT I am a sinner, BELIEVE in Jesus, CONFESS my sins. Some would add that the outcome must be that I engage in DISCIPLESHIP. Once I have sincerely done the first three and begun the fourth, I can confidently say "I am saved."

As I understand LDS teaching, Jesus has saved just about everyone from hell, by his atonement--even many who do not ADMIT, BELIEVE, or CONFESS will find themselves in the telestial, or even terrestial kingdoms. I admit to be unsure if what is required as a response to the gospel in the afterlife...perhaps the ABC is necessary at that point. Most here, though, have led me to believe hell will be a very small place.

And so, it is the Celestial Kingdom that requires a good deal of effort to enter. This would be similar to an Evangelical trying to attain the greatest rewards, the most wonderful crown of righteousness, etc. I think of those missionaries who respond to callings to go to persecuted lands, as an example.

There is a good deal of overlap, but our understanding of the Plan of Salvation also sometimes makes it hard to translate these similarities.

PC I think you've probably seen the diagram of the LDS Plan of Salvation?

ADDITION:

The circle that shows the Spirit World after death is made of of two parts, Paradise (heaven) and Spirit Prison (hell).

This is where the confusion (IMHO) comes from. We believe there is more AFTER heaven and hell.

[Dravin]

How about Grace THEN works, which should lead to grace-filled works. :-)

You know, if we accept the Light of Christ as grace then I find myself agreeing. You know, I'll be honest, I've never really thought of the Light of Christ* in that manner, but without the Light of Christ who would start to follow the Savior by obeying him.

* Light of Christ , Moroni 7:12-19 

[Jenamarie]

Just interesting to note: in a recent Sunday School lesson (Primary 7 manual), I had to use the "man in a deep pit with a ladder coming down analogy", except that the Atonment WAS the ladder. The lesson left no question that it is only because of Christ that we have any hope of being saved from our sins.

[prisonchaplain]

PC,,,This is where the confusion (IMHO) comes from. We believe there is more AFTER heaven and hell.

You are on to something. I have never caught that the three kingdoms (and the outer darkness, I assume) are thought to be AFTER the judgment, and that heaven and hell are beforehand. Thank you.

[applepansy]

You are on to something. I have never caught that the three kingdoms (and the outer darkness, I assume) are thought to be AFTER the judgment, and that heaven and hell are beforehand. Thank you.

Yes, outer darkness is after Judgement. Can you imagine getting through this life, the spirit world (heaven/hell), resurrection, then standing before Christ on the day of judgement and denying He is the Christ? I can't. But there will be somebody and they will go to outer darkness.

PC, We believe and teach that those people who to go Spirit Prison (hell) after death in this life will have the opportunity to accept Christ. That is why we do baptism and other temple work for the dead.

Edited August 26, 2011 by applepansy

[Guest gopecon]

Part of the confusion stems from the fact that we (LDS) do believe there ARE requirements (works) to get eternal life. Saving ordinances like baptism and confirmation are the first examples. Some protestants are so allergic to the idea of a "work" beyond accepting Christ that ordinances are deemed unnecessary. What's also required is our effort and engagement in the work, although there is not really a one-size-fits-all level that we all must reach to be saved.

[Guest gopecon]

There is one qualifier on Applepansy's point about the chances the dead have to accept the Gospel. The ones who can accept it after this life are the ones who did not have a chance to hear and accept it while alive. I don't know what counts as a chance. I don't think telling the missionaries to go away when you were really too busy to talk to them counts. I have heard, and believe it to be true that a real chance to accept the Gospel must include feeling the Spirit.

[prisonchaplain]

gopecon...I have it on good counsel that serving as a mod for six-years at lds.net is considered an adequate opportunity. :::gulp:::

[applepansy]

There is one qualifier on Applepansy's point about the chances the dead have to accept the Gospel. The ones who can accept it after this life are the ones who did not have a chance to hear and accept it while alive. I don't know what counts as a chance. I don't think telling the missionaries to go away when you were really too busy to talk to them counts. I have heard, and believe it to be true that a real chance to accept the Gospel must include feeling the Spirit.

Since only Christ can judge a person's heart I don't worry about this too much. I know my son heard the gospel after he died. I know he was in the temple when we did the work for him.

Having that spiritual confirmation after knowing all the things he did in this life even having been taught the gospel tells me that we as humans cannot every judge who has really "heard" the message here in this life.

[applepansy]

gopecon...I have it on good counsel that serving as a mod for six-years at lds.net is considered an adequate opportunity. :::gulp:::

I agree with you PC!!! :)

[Soninme]

Part of the confusion stems from the fact that we (LDS) do believe there ARE requirements (works) to get eternal life. Saving ordinances like baptism and confirmation are the first examples.

Hello gopecon

This is where I see the division.

Do I get baptised and confirmed to get saved or do I get baptised BECAUSE I'm saved?

What's also required is our effort and engagement in the work, although there is not really a one-size-fits-all level that we all must reach to be saved.

I believe the Bible teaches we are saved by grace only through faith only. Works will then naturally follow but have nothing at all to do with making or keeping me saved, that is only by His grace. (Ephesians 2:8)

Also as for works saving us;

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,

And whose sins are covered;

8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

This is why protestants would say "works" are not required for salvation or else God would owe us something (Rom. 4:4)

I wholeheartedly agree with PC

I love both grace and works. I am so thankful for the grace of God our Father, through his Son, Jesus Christ. My heart rejoices when God's people are busy about the WORK of the gospel too!

Edited August 26, 2011 by Soninme

[applepansy]

Part of the confusion stems from the fact that we (LDS) do believe there ARE requirements (works) to get eternal life. Saving ordinances like baptism and confirmation are the first examples. Some protestants are so allergic to the idea of a "work" beyond accepting Christ that ordinances are deemed unnecessary. What's also required is our effort and engagement in the work, although there is not really a one-size-fits-all level that we all must reach to be saved.

I would like to suggest reading this thread: Plan of Salvation

Then do the exercise as suggested by Justice. Also, read the scriptures and maybe the chapters I listed in post #9 of this thread.

Then come back and read what you're posted here.

[Vort]

This is where I see the division.

Do I get baptised and confirmed to get saved or do I get baptised BECAUSE I'm saved?

The former. If you are already "saved", baptism is superfluous.

I believe the Bible teaches we are saved by grace only through faith only. Works will then naturally follow but have nothing at all to do with making or keeping me saved, that is only by His grace. (Ephesians 2:8)

This is a selective reading of the Bible, which also clearly teaches in numerous places that "faith without works is dead" and "come, follow me".

This doctrine of "saved by grace" as preached by many in the larger Christian community today is a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching on the subject. Paul preached to Jews, many of whom believed that the regulations imposed by the law of Moses actually wrought salvation, and to Gentiles, many of whom came from pagan traditions that required animal or other sacrifice to this or that god to secure favor and blessings.

Paul's clear, unequivocal teaching to both groups was that our pitiful attempts at worship and obedience cannot, in and of themselves, secure salvation for us. The gap between us and salvation is far, far too great to be bridged by any petty acts we may accomplish. Our only possible hope is to come unto Christ and let his atoning blood save us. We are saved by Christ's blood, not by any act of worship we think we accomplish.

The situation today is different. Christians in general have at least a hazy understanding of the atonement and that we cannot "pull ourselves up by our bootstraps". The idea of salvation through the blood of Christ is now two millennia old. Rather, we have another pernicious doctrine that has taken hold among larger Christianity: The poisonous idea that we need do nothing besides "accept Christ", which usually means say some words to that effect, and then we are forever and totally "saved" no matter what we do after that point.

This is a doctrine of damnation. It denies the very essence of what it means to be "saved", in effect saying that we are sinful creatures, but that's okay because we can be saved in our sins.

We cannot be saved in our sins. The word "salvation" MEANS that we are in a non-sinful state. What are we being saved FROM? Damnation, hell, the devil. In other words, sin.

Is it true that we need merely "accept Christ" to be saved? Yes, in a sense it is perfectly true, but only if you understand what it means to "accept Christ". It does not mean that we declare "Jesus is my Savior! I am saaaaaved!" Remember the words of Christ:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If we wish to come unto Christ and be cleansed from sin in his blood, we must do as Christ commanded. We must be baptized and enter into a covenant with him. We must do the works he told us to do. We must endure to the end. Then, and ONLY then, will we receive his grace to overcome our sinful natures. Anyone who preaches differently is preaching falsehood.