Is the Devil real? Should we care?

[bettyjbass]

PrisonChaplin: I thank you so much, because I know that the dogmatic of what people judges is their own guilt of what is proven to what is hidden inside the sin nature of one's wrong to make them want to be right trying to justify the devil in sin. Which is their own mind to me, in what they make more belief that it is a devil that makes them do wrong. We have that choice to act as "Saints", or as a Devil, when many trying to blame in the shame of what is in the heart of self. Glad someone sees ! I prayed with tears, because I was in another discussion room posting to others about "I am a confused investigator", and really got touch with the doctrine of truth. Then to have what is tellings that I am changing the doctrine thread. That was not of me saying to change doctrine in the Word, but complaint of what was said I was changing the doctrine consitute. When the word do not add or take away from the Word of God! I just crys on the inside, because I am real within my belief heart to God, to service doing his will! Amen.

[Snow]

This is simply false.

Gee you sound pouty tonight.

For example, Joseph Smith had extensive and very direct proof of Satan's real influence. That you do not share such experience does not therefore imply that the experience does not exist.

Prove it.

[bettyjbass]

PrisonChaplin, I retrieved a e-mail message by snow, as if I am pouting about this discussions, No I am not expecting to be mis-leading the words you share, but this is every right to choice of whom control the mind of the believer to be right instead of wrong! I love you and everyone! I am sorry for any mis-leading thoughts to write, if I am agaisnt what you are saying, because some things or better keep in rather mis-judge with the using of the Word for other people to read. I am sorry! I do not have a great Degree with writing skills to be understood correctly "O". I love everyone, and it will not stop me, from serving the Heavenly Father, just because one thinks my words or wrongfully taken as I am poutful! although I am glad to no the Christ undertand the mind of other people to that can be a little thoughtful by mistakely taking wrongs for rights! when a good tree bares goof fruit and a bad tree bares bad friut. I am sorry to be wrongfully tooken as a pouting character Jesus Christ, whom to come and judge!

[pam]

Betty you didn't receive an email from Snow nor was he even talking to you about pouting. His comment was directed at Vort, not you.

[Dravin]

Betty you didn't receive an email from Snow nor was he even talking to you about pouting. His comment was directed at Vort, not you.

I wonder if she's subscribed to threads and thinks the email notifications of the posts are directed at her particularly?

Edit - Betty: If you are subscribed to a thread the board will email you to let you know someone has posted a comment but the poster (such as Snow) is not emailing you their comment, nor are their comments being necessarily directed to you.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Dravin

[Vort]

Gee you sound pouty tonight.

I can't believe you said that, you meanie!

Prove it.

Why? That's beside the point. Your assertion was:

That Satan is a real influence is a purely dogmatic belief - something for which there is no proof.

I assert there is indeed proof of Satan's existence, as Joseph Smith discovered. I have no need to provide a metaproof. The point is that "Satan is a real influence" and not "a purely dogmatic belief", and that there is indeed "proof" of such. But I need not, and indeed cannot, provide the proof.

In much the same sense, the existence of God is not a mere "dogmatic belief", but an objective reality, and there is indeed proof of it. But I cannot provide it to you.

Truth should be recognized and acknowledged as such, and not dismissed as "mere dogma" just because you can't acquire objective evidence of the truth on your own terms.

[Snow]

Why? That's beside the point. Your assertion was:

That Satan is a real influence is a purely dogmatic belief - something for which there is no proof.

I assert there is indeed proof of Satan's existence, as Joseph Smith discovered. I have no need to provide a metaproof. The point is that "Satan is a real influence" and not "a purely dogmatic belief", and that there is indeed "proof" of such. But I need not, and indeed cannot, provide the proof.

In much the same sense, the existence of God is not a mere "dogmatic belief", but an objective reality, and there is indeed proof of it. But I cannot provide it to you.

Truth should be recognized and acknowledged as such, and not dismissed as "mere dogma" just because you can't acquire objective evidence of the truth on your own terms.

I said "That Satan is a real influence is a purely dogmatic belief - something for which there is no proof." Dogma being something that is believed for which there is not proof.

You claimed that is false statement.

Your inability to offer proof makes the truth of my point absolutely clear. If there was proof, you'd tell us what it is.

Frankly it seems like you don't understand the nature of dogma. You seem to think that dogma is one thing and truthful reality is another thing mutually exclusive of dogma.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Snow
added clarification to last sentence

[Snow]

PrisonChaplin, I retrieved a e-mail message by snow, as if I am pouting about this discussions,

Uh - no, you didn't.

[Vort]

I said "That Satan is a real influence is a purely dogmatic belief - something for which there is no proof." Dogma being something that is believed for which there is not proof.

That is not what "dogma" means. A dogma is simply a foundational tenet.

You claimed that is false statement.

Your inability to offer proof makes the truth of my point absolutely clear. If there was proof, you'd tell us what it is.

But, Snow, I did just that. You claimed that the reality of the influence of the devil is unprovable. I countered that it was proven to Joseph Smith. How am I wrong?

Frankly it seems like you don't understand the nature of dogma. You seem to think that dogma is one thing and truthful reality is another thing mutually exclusive of dogma.

I think perhaps you are making special use of the term.

Did Joseph Smith receive personal proof of the literal reality of the influence of Satan? Yes or no?

[ConvinceTheWorld]

Yes. Lucifer, or Satan is very real.

You see the reason we "as children of God & mortals" have bodies is because we chose to follow God's Plan of salvation. Satan and his fallen angels do not have bodies. You can see that most sin exploits the beauty of the human Body.

When Christ Jesus commanded the demons out of one person they begged him "please if you must cast us out we beg to go into the flesh of the swine". There you see they would rather have the bodies of pigs than nothing.

Because Satan is a spirit he also has the power to disguise himself as one thoughts. Indeed it seems that some actions can be traced back to a seed planted by the prince of darkness.

Here is a good example of this. Lets say you are struggling with a certain sin that you cannot overcome. You say to yourself "No matter what, i will not give in. On this very day it ends". That should be the end of it....however not much time will pass and Satan will come again with enticing thoughts*

You will say, this is not like me*

- because it isnt you.

If our perception is hightened to the deceptions of Satan, we can all uplift each other in righteousness. One Mind, One heart, One will. The will of God.

Edited September 12, 2011 by ConvinceTheWorld

[Snow]

I think perhaps you are making special use of the term.

Sorry Vort - I apologize. I've been using the word dogma in a certain way here for years and take for granted that everyone knows specifically what intend it to mean.

I used in the sense of something that is asserted as true (in this case a religious tenet or belief) for which there is no proof.

Did Joseph Smith receive personal proof of the literal reality of the influence of Satan? Yes or no?

Yes - that is my belief, but there is no proof, of course, which gets back to what I apparently explained poorly.

Today is Priesthood we had a lesson on the Law of Chastity and the instructor went on about the power of Satan. I made my same objections as I do here and you can imagine that didn't go over so well.

People generally don't believe in magical invisible beings unless they are "their" magical invisible beings.

[Snow]

Because Satan is a spirit he also has the power to disguise himself as one thoughts.

How, specifically does he do that?

[ConvinceTheWorld]

How, specifically does he do that?

In the exact same way that the Holy Ghost will whisper or inspire to the thoughts and hearts of man**

We seek the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost in our lives!!! Our religion is based upon this goal! It is in the articles of faith...

Therefore you can see that without the equal opposition of Evil we could not be able to rightfully choose good and the Holy Ghost** If the opposittion was off balanced it would not be FREEDOM or THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE**

The reason the Book of Mormon says - "whatsoever entices to do bad and harm the body is of Satan, and whatsoever edifies and teaches that which is good is of God"

Is because..."does Satan always appear through physical, tangible means?"

No, infact; when we are alone to ourselves, is often the time when Satan will conspire with us to Sin**

We must use the prophet Joseph Smith as an example.

Not only was he seized upon by "some dark power from the unseen world" but he was specifically warned by Moroni that Satan would tempt him to use the Gold plates for Gain**

This was clearly a warning that Joseph was to watch his every thought* and intention!!!

Edited September 12, 2011 by ConvinceTheWorld

[Snow]

In the exact same way that the Holy Ghost will whisper or inspire to the thoughts and hearts of man**

We seek the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost in our lives!!! Our religion is based upon this goal! It is in the articles of faith...

Therefore you can see that without the equal opposition of Evil we could not be able to rightfully choose good and the Holy Ghost** If the opposittion was off balanced it would not be FREEDOM or THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE**

The reason the Book of Mormon says - "whatsoever entices to do bad and harm the body is of Satan, and whatsoever edifies and teaches that which is good is of God"

Is because..."does Satan always appear through physical, tangible means?"

No, infact; when we are alone to ourselves, is often the time when Satan will conspire with us to Sin**

We must use the prophet Joseph Smith as an example.

Not only was he seized upon by "some dark power from the unseen world" but he was specifically warned by Moroni that Satan would tempt him to use the Gold plates for Gain**

This was clearly a warning that Joseph was to watch his every thought* and intention!!!

I'll try again... how, specifically does the devil do it.

[ConvinceTheWorld]

I'll try again... how, specifically does the devil do it.

No, I'll try again.

I thought my first line answered your question directly...that is like asking "how exactly does one feel the burning power of the Holy Ghost?"

Or

"how is it that Christ died for us?" Or "How is baptisms for the dead by proxy possible?"

These spiritual laws cannot be explained in the confines of our earthly understanding***

We dont know how- we just do....

It is certainly easier to detect Satan's whispers than it is to attempt to explain how it is that he does it**

Edited September 12, 2011 by ConvinceTheWorld

[Seminarysnoozer]

In the exact same way that the Holy Ghost will whisper or inspire to the thoughts and hearts of man**

That is wrong. The Holy Ghost speaks via the spirit. Satan does not have communication with our spirit, directly. He has only been given temporary domain over things of this world, carnal things. Our body is in contact with our spirit, so that is his only access to our spirit, unless we let him or invite him.

[Traveler]

I'll try again... how, specifically does the devil do it.

Perhaps we should list the means and ways by which we can and have received communication. I would submit that whatever the means that at some point a thought must be created in a person - otherwise the communication will not be completed. Thus whenever a thought is generated - communication has taken place through completation.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I said "That Satan is a real influence is a purely dogmatic belief - something for which there is no proof." Dogma being something that is believed for which there is not proof.

You claimed that is false statement.

Your inability to offer proof makes the truth of my point absolutely clear. If there was proof, you'd tell us what it is.

Frankly it seems like you don't understand the nature of dogma. You seem to think that dogma is one thing and truthful reality is another thing mutually exclusive of dogma.

I would submit that your reference to proof is nothing more than "dobma" - just as you have define it.

The Traveler

[Snow]

No, I'll try again.

I thought my first line answered your question directly...that is like asking "how exactly does one feel the burning power of the Holy Ghost?"

Or

"how is it that Christ died for us?" Or "How is baptisms for the dead by proxy possible?"

These spiritual laws cannot be explained in the confines of our earthly understanding***

We dont know how- we just do....

It is certainly easier to detect Satan's whispers than it is to attempt to explain how it is that he does it**

No, you didn't answer the question.

Since you have no idea how "Satan disguise(s) himself as one thoughts, why do you think that he does. Have you have nabbed the devil red-handed rooting around in your brain?

[spamlds]

Moses chapter 1 contains a relevant passage of scripture. After having beheld the Lord, sometime thereafter Satan appeared to Moses as an "angel of light." He attempted to deceive Moses into worshipping him and he even claimed to be "the Only Begotten." Moses was able to discern the difference between the Lord and Satan.

12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.

13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?

14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?

15 Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.

Moses had felt the Lord's Spirit upon him, which transfigured him to be able to withstand a personal appearance of the Lord. When Satan appeared, no such quickening was necessary. Moses was able to tell the difference because of it--he could behold him "in the natural man."

Satan does not quicken the body or the spirit of mortals. He cannot mimic the gift of the Holy Ghost. Those who have received the Holy Ghost can discern between the two influences. They are as light and darkness. There is no doubt or possibility of confusing them.

[Traveler]

No, you didn't answer the question.

Since you have no idea how "Satan disguise(s) himself as one thoughts, why do you think that he does. Have you have nabbed the devil red-handed rooting around in your brain?

This is a most interesting concept and question you are asking Snow. Most of us have had some experience playing with sub-atomic particles and bubble chamber - perhaps most that have serious background studying science. In this method we measure what is by the effect of such “things” in strata that we can define and isolate. Seeing the result of “something” in essence perceives that thing.

I think what you are getting to is the concept of “measure” or quantifying. We like to say that unless we can quantify the reality of something then we cannot really say that it is a contributing factor. I would point you to two interesting theories concerning various methods of quantifying. The first is quantum mechanics and calculating half life. This involves what is called the “uncertainty principle”. It means that we can only “know” certain information and that quantifying one type of information prohibits the quantifying of supplemental information.

The second principle is the quantifying of possibilities through Chaos theory. If we say something exist or is a factor in a complex system then it can only be justified by the “settling” or changing of the system based on other parameters.

My point is in two parts. The first is that there is no such thing as “random”. In that everything has a cause. The second is that often things do not seem connected - only because the initial parameters are not clearly understood. In essence we lack the information to determine specifics but that we can measure long term variance.

My point in all this? Why do we believe in electrons and their intrusions into reality (knowing that there are conflicts that have never been accounted) and deny the possibility of Satan intrusions on less direct evidence?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

My point in all this? Why do we believe in electrons and their intrusions into reality (knowing that there are conflicts that have never been accounted) and deny the possibility of Satan intrusions on less direct evidence?

The Traveler

I think that is because it is easier to accept things that affect everyone in a non-discriminatory way than a personal, individualized, unique to that person intrusion.

Electrons etc, is just the playing field all of us are on whereas Satan's influences would be discriminatory.