Is the Devil real? Should we care?

[prisonchaplain]

Recent strings here concerning the Devil have broken down. The topic itself seems worthy, though, such discussions have a history of raising passions: Tempers Flare at Debate on the Devil - ABC News

So, I'll go first. Yes, the Devil is real. He, and demons, continue to molest people today. Possessions are real, but his influences is much more likely to be subtle.

Jesus did exorcise demons. His followers have done so for centuries. Much more common, however, is to discern right from wrong. Whether Satan "whispers" bad thoughts into our heads, or "leads" trouble our way, may be largely irrelevent. The best antedote is to be filled with the Spirit.

We probably do better not to give the Devil too much attention. However, when he manifests, we should be prepared to counter him, through Christ's power.

[MarginOfError]

I have no trouble with the existence of "the Devil" (I assume we're talking about Satan with that term).

The part that I don't understand is the mechanism(s) by which he accomplishes his goals. I think we assume he has much more influence over us than we he actually does.

I also struggle with the concept that the challenges and struggles that I face are obstacles deliberately placed by Satan. It seems far more reasonable that the obstacles are a product of some composite of random events.

The discussion I'd like to follow would be about the mechanics of how Satan works. This isn't something I've heard or read a lot in any religious literature. So I'm kind of at a loss.

[JudoMinja]

Thanks pc!

There's a great book- Putting on the Armor of God, by Stephen Cramer that does a wonderful job of addressing the reality of Satan. I read it about the time I was finishing high school, and I've put it on my "reread" list. There is a lot of amazing information in there, and it works to help us understand Satan's tactics and how we are to combat them.

Satan is a real being with real power. He would like us to believe he doesn't exist, because it is then easier for him to exhert his power over us. He can influence our very thoughts. He can work through "wispers" or direct manifestations. He is a dirty player, the father of all lies, and has been around from the beginning. He is very cunning, and has a lot of help- That third of the hosts of heaven that followed him? They are all just as bent on destroying us as he is. And think about it... If it was a literal third, that means Satan could quite literally "assign" one of his helpers to specifically target and work on only two people. That's two people in all of existence, not just who is alive on the earth right now. I think we have much more than just one spirit working on two people, because they aren't going to be sitting idly by when their two "assigned" people aren't on the earth.

The battle with Satan is very real, and can be very frightening. None of us have the strength to overcome him on our own. He is smarter than us, wiser than us, and has a whole army on his side.

Where we can find peace and hope is in that we are not alone in our battle. We can turn to Christ- who is stronger and more powerful than all of Satan's hosts. He has the power to cast Satan out. When we put on the armor of God, we can overcome the temptations and fiery darts of the adversary. I really love that book, and suggest it to everyone. :)

[prisonchaplain]

My own fellowship has said that, as a matter of doctrine, Satan (the Devil) cannot possess a true believer. Further, many, if not most, sicknesses and maladies are indeed natural occurances. Nevertheless, one of the gifts of the Spirit is the discerning of spirits. Also, there were a few cases of demons being exorcised.

See: http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4176_possessed.pdf

Day to day, I do not focus on Satan, and his works. The paper mentions what I said in the OP: the best defense is to be filled with the Spirit, and to walk with Jesus faithfully.

[Traveler]

From what I understand Satan is the opposition of Christ. I have posted this before and received opposition to my opinion. But - I will still offer an example. Where Jesus says to love you enemies and to do good to those that hate you; Satan has a slightly different approach. His notion is to love your friends (those that support you no matter what) but to hate your enemies (those that turn against you).

Obviously to Satan your friends deserve your kindness - your enemies deserve your wrath. This is all simple justice - everyone gets what they deserve. I believe that Satan fully intends that only the deserving be rewarded and that only the deserving be punished.

Of course I have used extremes to describe my beliefs - there are other factors. But to understand I have pointed out what looks like extreme. The big difference that I understand between Jesus and Satan is that Jesus believes in mercy. Not that mercy replaces justice - what Satan demands - but that mercy is forgiving and allows for learning and changing. Mercy allows someone to realize they acted incorrectly and want to make amends. Mercy allows for another chance. Satan is of the type - you had your chance already and muffed it and now you must pay.

Though I would like to claim otherwise - I follow Satan much more than I would like known. I keep thinking I can be better and like Christ - but the reality is - I am most often more like Satan. And so it is that I have learned to love my enemy because when the truth be known my worst enemy is me. And so my greatest concern is that Father will forgive me and that I can forgive my enemies.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler's point has much merit. When we fall short of Christ's commands to love God and neighbor...in the way he loved us (mercy-full), then we align ourselves with the Enemy.

Nevertheless, what seems to get these discussions in trouble is when we ponder how Satan OVERTLY manifests himself. I've suggested that he cannot possess a true believer. So, how might he "oppress" us, or otherwise influence us? Sometimes tempting thoughts are external, provided by Satan's minions. More often, they are the product of our own wicked imaginations--which we are commanded to take control of.

Many of our inmates believe, and there is a book out about this matter, that recreational drugs are demonic--literally. As an example (not necessarily a recommendation to purchase) see: KCI The Anti-Meth Store - Meth=Sorcery : Know the Truth

Edited September 8, 2011 by prisonchaplain

[bytor2112]

I think these verses from Nephi II are very descriptive of how Satan operates:

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

[JudoMinja]

I think that much of Satan's oppression comes in the views of society. People who do not protect themselves from his influence and have access to powerful means of persuasion like the media end up slowly working his corruptions into our daily lives. Think of the television for example- when shows first aired on television it was taboo for "married" couples to even be seen in the same room together. Now, we are bordering on pornographic material being shown on public television. The same goes for language used on public shows or what is allowed for "lower" ratings on films. These things slowly become less and less stringent, allowing more and more to be viewed by the public eye.

One area that is also being heavil influenced is dating- Even within the LDS church with members who follow the guidelines in the For Strength of Youth pamphlet, there are misunderstandings about what it really means to "date". So many believe that if you are not steadily seeing one person it is not dating, that if you go on several dates with several different people without making any commitments it is a bad thing and you are a "player". This confusion is fed by Satan's lies as he exerts his influence over us in his attempts to destroy families.

He works very very slowly, very very cunningly. He works one lie in with ten truths so that you have to work to find it, so that it is easier for him to manipulate and deceive. He muddies the waters, makes good things appear bad and bad things appear good. Certainly there are some areas where he will be openly contentious, but he knows that this isn't going to get him very far. Instead, he works his way in with little lies, little misleading thoughts.

He uses the desires and urges of our own bodies against us. The need for sleep can make us lazy. The need to eat can make us gluttonous. The need for love can make us lustful. The need for acknowledgement can make us proud. Etc. Basically, the "seven deadly sins". These are all his tools as well. He would have us believe that it is better to give in to our base instincts and let them drive us than it is to master ourselves.

Satan also uses science to his advantage- tries to convince us that we must have physical proof of something for it to be real. Stirs up contentions on topics such as evolution, genetic predispositions, string theory, "the big bang", and more so that science and religion seem to be at odds with one another instead of complimentary.

On the drugs- I think you are correct. Anything that so chemically alters us that we build a dependance on it, are so drawn to it that we would be willing to give up our own freedoms for it, that we negate everything we know to be morally correct because we "must" have that drug (and really this applies to any addiction), is a tool of Satan. He wants to put us in bondage. He starts with a flaxen cord and slowly draws us away until we are wrapped in his chains and don't know how to escape.

I think too, that our "wicked imaginations" are the result of Satan's influence. I think that our spirits are open to communication from all sides. The more we acknowledge the "light" and draw unto it, the more it becomes a part of us, and vice versa. The more we listen to and acknowledge the "darkness" of Satan, the more it becomes a part of us. Our spirits are almost like a clean slate, with little whisperings coming from all directions. When we have an "evil" thought, we need to recognize that it is wrong and replace it with something good, thus gaining mastery over our thoughts and learning to better discern the difference.

There is SO much more, and a lot of it is covered in that book. I wish I had it with me so I could pull quotes out of it .

[Backroads]

Thanks for jumping right to the point, PC!

My answer will be vague.

I do believe in Satan/the Devil as a real and sentient entity. Lucifer the Lightbearer fallen from Grace. I do not believe in "the devil" as some might call the misfortunes of the world. I also believe in demons as servants of Satan and also being very real and sentient.

But I also do not blame every bad thing on Satan. I believe that the nature of our world is fallen and as such we have natural consequences and bad luck and lousy random events.

I guess I would need more specifications on what the Devil does and does not do.

[AGStacker]

I have no trouble with the existence of "the Devil" (I assume we're talking about Satan with that term).

The part that I don't understand is the mechanism(s) by which he accomplishes his goals. I think we assume he has much more influence over us than we he actually does.

I also struggle with the concept that the challenges and struggles that I face are obstacles deliberately placed by Satan. It seems far more reasonable that the obstacles are a product of some composite of random events.

The discussion I'd like to follow would be about the mechanics of how Satan works. This isn't something I've heard or read a lot in any religious literature. So I'm kind of at a loss.

He works through governments mainly.

[JudoMinja]

He works through governments mainly.

And the media. And businesses. Any organization with power over large groups of people will feel his influence in some way. He also works on us individually, and tries to pull us down with very personal and intimate temptations.

[AGStacker]

And the media. And businesses. Any organization with power over large groups of people will feel his influence in some way. He also works on us individually, and tries to pull us down with very personal and intimate temptations.

Agreed. Thank you.

[prisonchaplain]

I do not really disagree that Satan uses his influence over large entities, like governments and businesses. On the other hand, it's not a institution that mobilizes the mass to commit genocide against the Jews, the Tutus/Hutus, or to view some groups of people as suspect. Individuals are the vessels of choice for our enemy. Quite often it is one person who gives himself over to the demonic. There are secular accounts, for example, of Adolf Hitler's interest in the occult.

Keep in mind...we are the government...and we're here to help. :-)

[AGStacker]

I do not really disagree that Satan uses his influence over large entities, like governments and businesses. On the other hand, it's not a institution that mobilizes the mass to commit genocide against the Jews, the Tutus/Hutus, or to view some groups of people as suspect. Individuals are the vessels of choice for our enemy. Quite often it is one person who gives himself over to the demonic. There are secular accounts, for example, of Adolf Hitler's interest in the occult.

Keep in mind...we are the government...and we're here to help. :-)

What I believe is that he infiltrates governments and then corrupts men with power and women, or men, mainly. Then as his power grows within government he uses government to enslave the people politically and financially. I am a big believer that this is what he is currently doing right now with America. Mainly very wealthy elite have even admitted to this indirectly. They didn't outright say "Satan..." but they seek world dominion. Rockefellers and Rothschilds come to mind. For Satan to have world dominion he will have to take out America. America is his largest deterrent. He will ultimately fail but not without taking the lives and souls of many, many people. Satan appears and instructs men just like God does through servants.

[Vort]

Any latter-day Saint who disbelieves in the reality or physical power of Satan needs to explain this passage of scripture, an event related by the Church's mortal founder:

mmediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound.

[Dravin]

He works through governments mainly.

I think MoE was thinking mechanisms not tactics. As governments are run by people one is still left with the question of the mechanism Satan uses to influence people.

[AGStacker]

I think MoE was thinking mechanisms not tactics. As governments are run by people one is still left with the question of the mechanism Satan uses to influence people.

mech·an·ism

[mek-uh-niz-uhm]

noun

1.

an assembly of moving parts performing a complete functional motion, often being part of a large machine; linkage.

2.

the agency or means by which an effect is produced or a purpose is accomplished.

3.

machinery or mechanical appliances in general.

4.

the structure or arrangement of parts of a machine or similar device, or of anything analogous.

5.

the mechanical part of something; any mechanical device: the mechanism of a clock.

[Dravin]

Conceding that what you describe is a mechanism, and it is used by Satan to influence people, it's not answering the question MoE is trying to ask (based off of what I know of him)*. Okay, so Satan influences governments to influence others, how does he influence the people in the government in the first place? Even if one believes it's a self tightening cycle where each 'generation' of government operators influence the next batch to continue or worsen the cycle (think something like a momentum toy), how the initial imput?

* It's somewhat like answering the question, "What is the mechanism that makes a car go?" by answering, "You start it, put it in gear, and push on the gas pedal." It's correct but not necessarily what the person was looking for if they were hoping to have how an ICE works explained, or a transmission, or even the chemical reaction of combustion.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Dravin

[RescueMom]

A righteous people will have a righteous government. The Devil, and he is real, gets in and destroys the people first, mostly by destroying the family sturcture. The government can't gain it's power or change laws unless the people let that happen...and if the people are apathetic it's much easier for him to do his job.

He is very good at what he does, he doesn't need to topple governments or destroy constitutions, he simply does what he does...destroys families...and the rest will follow. He makes us think we have to have the big car the big house an over abundance of food, so dad and mom work and work and work, kids get the idea that they are entitled to all this stuff...and a few generations later we are where we are now. Satan didn't have to do anything but have Dad or Mom envy the neighbors new car. Simple point but that's how he works.

He could give two rips about any government on this planet, he doesn't care one iota about them, his mission is simple, **** as many of our Father's children as possible, governments, media and everything else can be used as his tools...but the form of government, the type of media don't mean a thing to him, he just uses them to destroy us.

[Traveler]

Traveler's point has much merit. When we fall short of Christ's commands to love God and neighbor...in the way he loved us (mercy-full), then we align ourselves with the Enemy.

Nevertheless, what seems to get these discussions in trouble is when we ponder how Satan OVERTLY manifests himself. I've suggested that he cannot possess a true believer. So, how might he "oppress" us, or otherwise influence us? Sometimes tempting thoughts are external, provided by Satan's minions. More often, they are the product of our own wicked imaginations--which we are commanded to take control of.

Many of our inmates believe, and there is a book out about this matter, that recreational drugs are demonic--literally. As an example (not necessarily a recommendation to purchase) see: KCI The Anti-Meth Store - Meth=Sorcery : Know the Truth

PC. If you will pardon my prejudice but you have touched on some of my major hot buttons concerning many Evangelicals and perhaps you can help me better understand.

First: is the concept of demonic possession. To be honest I do not know why anyone uses that expression - to me it is very misleading. I do not believe there is a point when Satan suddenly takes possession. Rather I believe the method is most of degree of influence. I believe Satan is far more likely to separate us for the influence of the Holy Ghost and anything holy by degrees of influence

The second is the notion of “true believer” as opposed to a believer. I honestly do not understand the difference except the excuse that should a believer ever error in the tiniest way then the excuse is that they were really not a true believer. I do not think the label “true” believer is used anywhere in scripture and I honestly do not understand the “true” difference. There is also a scripture that talks about believing in G-d as a good thing but the devil also believes in G-d and fears and trembles. It appears to me that the Devil is as “true” a believer as there is on earth.

Final point or idea. I think the greatest efforts by Satan are to influence the best people he can find. I believe he delights in causing problems with the righteous and saintly. The idea that if we are close to G-d that Satan can’t get to us; I think is a horrible mistake. Satan had no hesitation in tempting Jesus - and Jesus is more holy and close to the spirit than any of us. I do not think we should make assumptions that Satan will not bother us if we stay close to G-d - Rather I think we should thank G-d for his mercy and not be critical of our fellow man over trivial things like believing something different. To be honest I believe critical people of other devout people’s faith are under the influence of Satan as much as an addict is influenced by Satan through drugs.

I do not say these things to condemn anyone - shucks I am no better than others - I criticize even in this post - my point is - I do not think we should ever pretend that we are free of Satan’s influence. Not so much to give others the wrong impression - but because it gives ourselves the wrong impression. If you can help me understand Evangelicals better - it would be a great help because for the most part I am a little leery of interfacing with most of them because of influences that seem obvious to me.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

PC. If you will pardon my prejudice but you have touched on some of my major hot buttons concerning many Evangelicals and perhaps you can help me better understand.

First: is the concept of demonic possession. To be honest I do not know why anyone uses that expression - to me it is very misleading. I do not believe there is a point when Satan suddenly takes possession. Rather I believe the method is most of degree of influence. I believe Satan is far more likely to separate us for the influence of the Holy Ghost and anything holy by degrees of influence

I'm thinking of the incidences we read about in the New Testament. People who are being controlled by demonic spirits to the point where these spirits control their physical movements. Foaming at the mouth, spewing profanities, convulsing--full-blown possession.

Again, this is not that common, and I do not believe it can happen to a Christian.

The second is the notion of “true believer” as opposed to a believer. I honestly do not understand the difference except the excuse that should a believer ever error in the tiniest way then the excuse is that they were really not a true believer. I do not think the label “true” believer is used anywhere in scripture and I honestly do not understand the “true” difference. There is also a scripture that talks about believing in G-d as a good thing but the devil also believes in G-d and fears and trembles. It appears to me that the Devil is as “true” a believer as there is on earth.

To be simple, Christians cannot be demon-possessed. It may be that someone who says they are a Christian is demon-possessed. That person is not a true believer.

We can be "oppressed," or seduced, or, as you say, encouraged away from being directed by the Holy Spirit. We cannot be possessed, or given over to full-blown demonic possession.

Final point or idea. I think the greatest efforts by Satan are to influence the best people he can find. I believe he delights in causing problems with the righteous and saintly. The idea that if we are close to G-d that Satan can’t get to us; I think is a horrible mistake. Satan had no hesitation in tempting Jesus - and Jesus is more holy and close to the spirit than any of us. I do not think we should make assumptions that Satan will not bother us if we stay close to G-d - Rather I think we should thank G-d for his mercy and not be critical of our fellow man over trivial things like believing something different. To be honest I believe critical people of other devout people’s faith are under the influence of Satan as much as an addict is influenced by Satan through drugs.

Oh, Christians can be powerfully seduced by Satan. We can give in to his tricks. What Satan cannot do is fully possess us. So long as we cling to Christ, we can escape Satan, no matter how badly we have fallen in with his schemes.

I do not say these things to condemn anyone - shucks I am no better than others - I criticize even in this post - my point is - I do not think we should ever pretend that we are free of Satan’s influence. Not so much to give others the wrong impression - but because it gives ourselves the wrong impression. If you can help me understand Evangelicals better - it would be a great help because for the most part I am a little leery of interfacing with most of them because of influences that seem obvious to me.

The Traveler

I do not see that we really disagree. You may misunderstand my idea of possession vs. demonic influence. Clearly, we can give in to Satan's temptations. However we will not be given over to Satan to the extent that we lose our ability to break free, with Christ's help.

[Traveler]

...

I do not see that we really disagree. You may misunderstand my idea of possession vs. demonic influence. Clearly, we can give in to Satan's temptations. However we will not be given over to Satan to the extent that we lose our ability to break free, with Christ's help.

What do you (Evangelicals) consider the worse or more powerful influence (control or possession) by Satan? The Pharisees and Scribes that sought to kill Jesus or the child distorted with palsy?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

The child needed to be exorcised, the Pharisees needed to humble themselves. One is direct spiritual warfare, and the other is a matter of what you would call agency. We can cry out to heaven for a demonized child, but the soul who will not open his or her heart cannot be prayed into salvation. Our prayers help, but each person keeps their free will.

So, it's not a matter of which is worse, but rather what is the source? When it comes to being seduced, being tricked, being tempted, we retain or ability to resist the Devil--he will flee from us. To the soul possessed, we can command the demon to leave, in the name of Jesus. That exorcised soul can then choose to follow Christ or not. If not, scripture says they will be worse off than before the exoercism.

[Guest gopecon]

Traveler - about 85% of this country (America) self identifies as Christian, but many of them are not active in a congregation, do not read the Bible or pray regularly, and do not really put a lot of effort into their discipleship. They may believe, but they are not "true believers" who are really committed to Christ in a meaningful way.

In LDS terms I think active vs. less active members is a similar comparison. Many less active LDS do not have the committment or testimonies to take the time being involved in their wards. Obviously each situation is different, but generally speaking that would be the difference between an LDS "true believer" and one who is not. A priesthood holder who has let his testimony dwindle will be very unlikely to be able to bless others with the faith and spirit needed to be effective.

[Vort]

The child needed to be exorcised, the Pharisees needed to humble themselves. One is direct spiritual warfare, and the other is a matter of what you would call agency. We can cry out to heaven for a demonized child, but the soul who will not open his or her heart cannot be prayed into salvation. Our prayers help, but each person keeps their free will.

So, it's not a matter of which is worse, but rather what is the source? When it comes to being seduced, being tricked, being tempted, we retain or ability to resist the Devil--he will flee from us. To the soul possessed, we can command the demon to leave, in the name of Jesus. That exorcised soul can then choose to follow Christ or not. If not, scripture says they will be worse off than before the exoercism.

For the record, and apropos of absolutely nothing: I do not believe that the child was possessed of an evil spirit. Devils cannot possess children. I believe the child had epilepsy or something similar. The ancients had no way of recognizing this or distinguishing between it and, say, demonic possession. As usual, Jesus did not bother to correct their misunderstanding, just as he didn't bother to tell the paralytic that the whole "angel troubling the waters" was base superstition. He simply healed the afflicted.

I find it significant that Jesus said, "This kind cometh not out but by fasting and prayer" (or words to that effect). Why would some devils be "superdevils" that require special methods to get them to "come out"? The devils and demons are subject to God's command. The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that this was not a case of demonic possession at all. It was a case of a disease that needed healing, requiring more than mere words, but a deep exercise of faith through fasting and prayer.